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I agree that falcons arent too good anymore. are nightwings good for the points they cost?

 Swissivy wrote:
The "Deliverance" psy power of the Wraithseer grants fnp 4+ as per fw psyker faq update (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/p/Psykers.pdf).

Once they get assaulted they have good chance to stand even against powerfisting terminators, just to wait for the Harlequins to join the party. Not a strategy to rely upon, but Eldar benefits from synergy.

Yeah but as a DW player, When i see my friends Wraithwall i just keep 20" away and take out everything else.

 zephoid wrote:


Wraithwall is terrible. 12" range, no melee potential, and expensive (that unit is ~800 points). Precision shots can take out key parts of the unit (farseer, warlock) and they will have a long period of time to shoot at you before you can get into range. The wraithseer is decent, but suffers the same problems as the avatar. FNP is also a 5+ and is not rerollable as it is not a save.

It cannot be a simple wall. Think of it more so as a mobile fortress. There is more to get out of the unit that way. Abuse group movement and maximize synergy with every other part of your army. My "wall" is no mere wall. It is the front of a fortress that has two towers on its flanks, a battery of weaponry that fires outward, and a garrison to throw out would be attackers. The knights ride forth to harass the enemy lines while hidden archers pick apart would-be attackers.

Heres what happens when 10 TH/SS termies w termi Chap from a land raider punch your wraithwall (~800 point wraithwall vs the standard 800 point terminator deathstar):

Eldrad 2A, 1.3H, 1.1 W, .3 fail
warlock w spear: 1A, .5H, .4W,<.1fail
10 wraithguard, 10A, 5H, 3.3W, .5fail

just round up and call it 1 fail, put on chap.

10TH: 30A, 15H+7.5H, 18.75W, 9.4 wraithguard fail
Chap: 4A (croz), 3.6H, 1.8W, 0.1 unsaved

So yeah, if you find 9 wraithguard dying with doing a single wound 'standing even' sure, that works. But i dont think anyone will argue that. Any of these beat wraithguard in melee: AP3+ in quantity, misfortune psychic power, High Str AP3+, tarpit units (scarabs, boys, even stubborn guardsmen will delay 3+ turns).

Also, now you need harlequins to support this unit. So 250 points additional. So at ~1050 points you have a unit that is good as 12" shooting vs vehicles or heavy inf and can survive assaults..... Yeah.... that doesnt seem like such a good idea.

edit:

warpspider89 wrote:

It cannot be a simple wall. Think of it more so as a mobile fortress. There is more to get out of the unit that way. Abuse group movement and maximize synergy with every other part of your army. My "wall" is no mere wall. It is the front of a fortress that has two towers on its flanks, a battery of weaponry that fires outward, and a garrison to throw out would be attackers. The knights ride forth to harass the enemy lines while hidden archers pick apart would-be attackers.

That is one of the worst analogies i have ever seen. You literally said nothing with all those words except concoct a metaphor that didn't even fit.

Nightwings are great. Dont let the 2 HP and AV10 fool you, these things are tough as nails. 2+ when it jinks, 5+ at all times, and 2+ if it can find a ruin tall enough to get 25% cover. I run at least 1 in every tourney and it has been shot down ONCE in ~15 games by a random lucky krak grenade... Best platform for bright lances and take down other fliers like nothing else. Vector dancer means that the old "impossible maneuvers" rule is dead on. It can move back and forth on a 18" line very turn if you want it to. It also gets on the tail of enemy fliers as soon as it comes on (move 36, vector dancer turn, 45* weapon arch) and fires all 4 weapons. Takes down infantry nearly as well, with 6S6 and 2S8 AP2 shots.

 zephoid wrote:
Heres what happens when 10 TH/SS termies w termi Chap from a land raider punch your wraithwall (~800 point wraithwall vs the standard 800 point terminator deathstar):

Eldrad 2A, 1.3H, 1.1 W, .3 fail
warlock w spear: 1A, .5H, .4W,<.1fail
10 wraithguard, 10A, 5H, 3.3W, .5fail

just round up and call it 1 fail, put on chap.

10TH: 30A, 15H+7.5H, 18.75W, 9.4 wraithguard fail
Chap: 4A (croz), 3.6H, 1.8W, 0.1 unsaved

So yeah, if you find 9 wraithguard dying with doing a single wound 'standing even' sure, that works. But i dont think anyone will argue that. Any of these beat wraithguard in melee: AP3+ in quantity, misfortune psychic power, High Str AP3+, tarpit units (scarabs, boys, even stubborn guardsmen will delay 3+ turns).

Also, now you need harlequins to support this unit. So 250 points additional. So at ~1050 points you have a unit that is good as 12" shooting vs vehicles or heavy inf and can survive assaults..... Yeah.... that doesnt seem like such a good idea.

edit:

warpspider89 wrote:

It cannot be a simple wall. Think of it more so as a mobile fortress. There is more to get out of the unit that way. Abuse group movement and maximize synergy with every other part of your army. My "wall" is no mere wall. It is the front of a fortress that has two towers on its flanks, a battery of weaponry that fires outward, and a garrison to throw out would be attackers. The knights ride forth to harass the enemy lines while hidden archers pick apart would-be attackers.

That is one of the worst analogies i have ever seen. You literally said nothing with all those words except concoct a metaphor that didn't even fit.

Nightwings are great. Dont let the 2 HP and AV10 fool you, these things are tough as nails. 2+ when it jinks, 5+ at all times, and 2+ if it can find a ruin tall enough to get 25% cover. I run at least 1 in every tourney and it has been shot down ONCE in ~15 games by a random lucky krak grenade... Best platform for bright lances and take down other fliers like nothing else. Vector dancer means that the old "impossible maneuvers" rule is dead on. It can move back and forth on a 18" line very turn if you want it to. It also gets on the tail of enemy fliers as soon as it comes on (move 36, vector dancer turn, 45* weapon arch) and fires all 4 weapons. Takes down infantry nearly as well, with 6S6 and 2S8 AP2 shots.

(1) It is impossible to have 11 models in terminator armor within a landraider. They are going to be footslogging, which means that they will be subject to a significant amount of firepower before they hit the target. At best you can have 8 models with terminator armor within a landraider and you better believe that that will get popped before making it to the wall.

(2) You are ignoring the variety of spells that can be rolled for with a second HQ choice that can neutralize those threats. The ENTIRE ARMY has to work together in an Eldar list.

(3) The analogy makes sense if you consider the models available to Codex: Eldar. I am talking about pew pew wraithlords (towers), scatterwalkers (battery), rangers/pathfinders (archers), and jetbikers (knights).

(4) Jinx is what provides the 5+ save to the flier. The 2+ comes from using evasive maneuvers, which puts off using other aspects of the flier's capabilities.

(5) 6x S6 & 2x S8 shots is not a lot of firepower. On average it won't even kill a five man combat squad.

Edited portion begins...

(6) Further, you forgot about overwatch. A prepared general will have cast guide on the wall at the very least, which essentially gives a 5+ overwatch. Good luck with the other psycher means that you may be facing full BS shooting capabilities.

(7) The wraithwall is a fearless 400 pt. unit (not 800... where did you get that ridiculous number?) without the IC, who does not need to be part of that squad, just within 6 inches for casting purposes. It doesn't matter even if it is mostly destroyed. It will hold the terminators there so that they can be counter attacked.

(8) The #1 advantage of the Wraithwall is that it draws an incredible amount of fire. The enemy has to throw everything into trying to take it out. Abuse that.

 zephoid wrote:
Heres what happens when 10 TH/SS termies w termi Chap from a land raider punch your wraithwall (~800 point wraithwall vs the standard 800 point terminator deathstar):

Eldrad 2A, 1.3H, 1.1 W, .3 fail
warlock w spear: 1A, .5H, .4W,<.1fail
10 wraithguard, 10A, 5H, 3.3W, .5fail

just round up and call it 1 fail, put on chap.

10TH: 30A, 15H+7.5H, 18.75W, 9.4 wraithguard fail
Chap: 4A (croz), 3.6H, 1.8W, 0.1 unsaved

So yeah, if you find 9 wraithguard dying with doing a single wound 'standing even' sure, that works. But i dont think anyone will argue that. Any of these beat wraithguard in melee: AP3+ in quantity, misfortune psychic power, High Str AP3+, tarpit units (scarabs, boys, even stubborn guardsmen will delay 3+ turns).

Also, now you need harlequins to support this unit. So 250 points additional. So at ~1050 points you have a unit that is good as 12" shooting vs vehicles or heavy inf and can survive assaults..... Yeah.... that doesnt seem like such a good idea.

10 TH/SS and 1 Terminator Chaplin take up 22 bodies worth of transport space, and thus cannot fit in a land raider. You are also assuming that the wraithguard just sit there and wait for your land raider to drive up, drop off the terminators and assault them. Units that you guarentee the charge to tend to do well in assault. But there is no way to guarentee the charge.


I'm not saying wraithguard are such a great unit, but watch
Ill take 10 incubi, with klavex with 2 pain tokens, and an archon kitted out as usual and 10 wyches with nothing. 550 points. I guarentee them the charge against your TH/SS pack o points(550 was it?) Archon attacks, depending on drugs 4 hit 2 wound .66 get through saves, unless the chaplin accepts the challenge, in which case the chaplin take 1 ID wound after saves. The klavex strikes, 5 attacks, 3.33 hits 1.66 wounds, .55 wounds. Wyches strike(depending on drugs) 30 attacks, 15 hit, 5 wound, .83 wounds The 9 remaining incubi strike. 27 attacks, 18 hits, 12 wounds. 4 dead TH/SS guys. 4 guys strike back, 8 attacks, 4 hits(6 if the chaplin hid). 4.2 wounds, I take on the wyches for the 4++. I lose 2 girls(20 points) and wipe your squad next turn.

Sorry, forgot terminators count for 2 bodies. So used to Stormravens who dont have that restriction.

I know the potential for terminators to die. I was simply using the default 10 terminators+ chap as the default deathstar. Same point goes for TW cav, Nob Bikers, seer councils, beast packs, or any other deathstar this game runs. ALL of the above will get the charge on Wraithguard. All of the above will obliterate the wraithwall (While charge isnt guarenteed, you can get pretty damn certain especially if the wraithwall is advancing). All of the above will be costed <1000 points that this setup runs. Hell, there could even be 3 full beast packs running for under that point cost (though they would not all have invisi).

Also, what happens if your opponent is SW or Eldar and brought psychic defense? Or allied one of those two armies in as a LOT of people are doing lately. You depend on a lot of powers going off in these examples. Hell, one could even fail naturally.

Your HQs were eldrad and Wraithseer in the example, meaning thats your 2 HQs. You want more powers? then lose the wraithseer but then your resistance to AP3- is vastly reduced. If running wraithwall, wraithseer is nearly essential for the buffs.

You play bad opponents if your opponent doesnt realize how wraithwall works. You DONT shoot the wraithwall. You shoot everything else. When you are reduced to 10 wraithguard+ harlequin+ wraithseer unit occupying only a small portion of the map and most of my army left, then i shoot the wraithseer (what else are my AT guns shooting after your WW are gone?) and throw everything at your remaining 800 point deathstar. Preferably a few tarpit guys at the wraithguard and the rest of the melee potential of my army at the harlequins. Once the harlequins die (and die they do if they cant kill everything they are fighting, 5++ with rerolls doesnt take much whenever eldrad is challenged out) then everything moves on to the wraithguard and capping the remaining objectives to end the game. Happens the same way every time i play eldar players who think that wraithwall is some sort of unkillable unit.

Last time i dropped three medusa barrage blasts on the shadowseer's head, he died, then the harlequins got blasted. Then i proceeded to assault the wraithguard with ~50 DKOK guardsmen with 6 powerfists between them all. I have done similar with warp hunters when i played corsairs and eldar before that. With nids i locked the wraithguard in combat with a squad of gaunts after the WG killed my dakkafex, then ran my tyrant deathstar into the harlequins while surrounding the harlequins with gargs to stop them from hitting and running. This same thing repeats every time someone tries to play the predictable wraithguard list.


My Corsair army fields 1 nightwing in 1k, 3 in 1850. Last 1k doubles tourney about 2 weeks ago about 4 people of 54 had quad guns. Despite FW being allowed, only 2 brought Helios and 1 Sabres. Interceptor is still pretty rare. In 1k i can normally come on, blast a flier out of the sky with rear arch, then jink to make the opponent waste fire the rest of the game while Preciencing from my psykers every once in a while. In my 1850 normally everyone has ADL but lack 3 interceptor units. 2+ saves keep all 3 alive and two get to fire every turn. Sure, its no vendetta, but the maneuverability of a nightwing will beat out a vendetta trying to kill it nearly every game.


So.. not being able to kill 5 marines makes it bad at killing infantry? being able to wipe most of a devi squad in a single round knock off ~5 more boys from a squad to put it off of fearless is still effective. Better than the ~2 guys you can kill with a vendetta and people love to exalt that flier.

 zephoid wrote:
Sorry, forgot terminators count for 2 bodies. So used to Stormravens who dont have that restriction.

This simply isn't the case. Models that are bulky or very bulky still take up more transport capacity in the Storm Raven than regular models. It is not possible to fit eleven terminators inside of the Storm Raven. To do so would be illegal.

Edited portion:

Terminator armor involves the bulky rule. The bulky rule means that each model counts as two models for the purposes of determining transport capacity. The SR has a transport capacity of twelve models. 12/2 = 6. Six terminators, not eleven, can fit into a SR. More terminators can be put into a landraider crusader than can be put into a stormraven gunship.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Certain codex weapons didn't get nerfed, like the Banshee Exarch's weapons (not the axe model, see the FAQ), and the Warp Spider's blades.
Do lances get AP2 on the charge? Keep some Shining Spears around, and call them in when a unit gets charged.
Fire Prisms can fire an AP2 blast?

Warp Spider's are only ignore armour saves if you also do the old fallacy of dividing the rules text between rules and fluff. The rules state they are power weapons as well, and power weapons without specification are AP3.
Lances are power weapons on the assault, unspecified power weapons and as such power swords.
Fire Prisms are good. Warp Hunters are better. I'd take an AP2 large blast over an AP2 small blast any day

 fleet of claw wrote:
I agree that falcons arent too good anymore. are nightwings good for the points they cost?

One of the most cost effective ways of getting Brightlances on the table. It's a War Walker with four weapons that pay 35 points to get Flyer, Shrouded, Vector Dancer, Super Sonic, Deep Strike and the ability to shoot two extra weapons - and let's not forget that it's Fast Attack! It's just too bad you can't alter those weapons. Now, flyers do come with the drawback of entering table late and that means you can't alpha strike heavy vehicles with Night Wings. It's essentially a really good air superiority fighter with a bit of Stukka on the side.

 Mahtamori wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Certain codex weapons didn't get nerfed, like the Banshee Exarch's weapons (not the axe model, see the FAQ), and the Warp Spider's blades.
Do lances get AP2 on the charge? Keep some Shining Spears around, and call them in when a unit gets charged.
Fire Prisms can fire an AP2 blast?

Warp Spider's are only ignore armour saves if you also do the old fallacy of dividing the rules text between rules and fluff. The rules state they are power weapons as well, and power weapons without specification are AP3.

Ok, so they're AP3 power weapons that ignore armour saves, which would include 2+ armour saves. The last line of their rules is "Power Blades confer +1 A and ignore armour saves." Pretty hard to get that confused given GW hasn't seen fit to FAQ it otherwise.

Wouldn't that make Eldrad's sword AP3 as well? For some reason I was sure that the FAQ supported his weapon & the WS exarch's weapons being AP2 but now that I look I don't see that either is FAQ supported.

warpspider89 wrote:
Wouldn't that make Eldrad's sword AP3 as well? For some reason I was sure that the FAQ supported his weapon & the WS exarch's weapons being AP2 but now that I look I don't see that either is FAQ supported.

No. His Sword is a Witchblade, which follows the rules in the main rulebook.

His staff, however, has the special rule that it ignores armour saves. It also doesn't mention Power Weapon at all, so the power weapon rules don't come into play. Thus his staff is AP -, ignores armour saves.

warpspider89 wrote:
Wouldn't that make Eldrad's sword AP3 as well? For some reason I was sure that the FAQ supported his weapon & the WS exarch's weapons being AP2 but now that I look I don't see that either is FAQ supported.

You can still be AP3 and ignore armor saves.

A weapon could theoretically be AP- and still ignore armor saves.

Ignoring armor saves is a special rule, AP is a stat.

By making something AP3, ignoring armor saves, it is effectively AP2 EXCEPT it doesn't get bonus on the damage chart. So this may be intentional.

Great clarification on that one friends! Thank-you.

I've been running 10 terminators + Logan + Njal.

They die to lots of shooting, even with a 3++ from stormshields.

6th edition is all about lots of durable scoring units and mobility. Use those to throw lots of shots on to the terminators. Then throw lots of close combat attacks on them.

Recent 5 game tournament I was at, the winner had 5 power weapons in the army, kept in a shooting allied guard blob. The eldar had none.

warpspider89 wrote:

(6) Further, you forgot about overwatch. A prepared general will have cast guide on the wall at the very least, which essentially gives a 5+ overwatch.

Does guide definitely work on overwatch?
I read it as it was only for the eldar players turn. I'd really like to be wrong and have just missed something though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zephoid wrote:
Your HQs were eldrad and Wraithseer in the example, meaning thats your 2 HQs. You want more powers? then lose the wraithseer but then your resistance to AP3- is vastly reduced. If running wraithwall, wraithseer is nearly essential for the buffs.

If you're running wraithwall, it needs to 2k+ they cost too much in a cheaper points game. So you get double FOC - 3 farseers and a wraithseer if you're so inclined.
The wraith unit really needs hit and run to help it - either by allying the DE baron or losing all semblance of thought and bringing Baharroth to a game *shudder.

You know what the best counter to wraithwall is? Anything with a str6 ap3 flamer. So helldrakes + Baal Predators tend to crisp them as most people take telepathy for the chance of invis 2+ and super flamers ignore cover *and* their armour save. It makes fortuneing them useless. This unit doesn't even need an enemy deathstar to break it.

I agree on nightwings - they are great for anti vehicle/flyers. I run them with a phoenix bomber - I try to get people to shoot the nightwings as a distraction while the bomber gets on with the task of murdering MEQ's. With 2 x str 8ap2 and 6 x str5 ap3 shots (and a shuriken cannon) it's much better suited for that role. It just needs protecting.

The best thing I've found for ap2 is...lots of fire, same as everyone else.
I've had 9 Dire Avengers with doom take out 5 terminators in one turn.
Scorpions firing pistols on the way into a charge then pulling out about 40 attacks works too.

PredaKhaine wrote:

warpspider89 wrote:

(6) Further, you forgot about overwatch. A prepared general will have cast guide on the wall at the very least, which essentially gives a 5+ overwatch.

Does guide definitely work on overwatch?
I read it as it was only for the eldar players turn. I'd really like to be wrong and have just missed something though

Does fortune work in your enemy's turn?

Guide, like fortune, is a blessing according to the rules for psychic power types in the BRB. Blessings last until the beginning of your next turn. The same goes for maladictions like doom. So, anytime you shoot when guide is active, including for overwatch, you benefit from re-rollable to-hit dice.

Edited:

That vulnerability is why rolling solely on divination for the 4+ invulnerable spell is way better than shooting for invis. It protects against everything. It only takes one warp charge. And! The other spells on that tree are mostly good or decent, unlike telepathy, which has a couple good and much trash..

warpspider89 wrote:

That vulnerability is why rolling solely on divination for the 4+ invulnerable spell is way better than shooting for invis. It protects against everything. It only takes one warp charge. And! The other spells on that tree are mostly good or decent, unlike telepathy, which has a couple good and much trash..

I second that. although if you are in a position where you know your enemy wont be in range to assault you or use some meaney templates then in that case invisibility is better

warpspider89 wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

warpspider89 wrote:

(6) Further, you forgot about overwatch. A prepared general will have cast guide on the wall at the very least, which essentially gives a 5+ overwatch.

Does guide definitely work on overwatch?
I read it as it was only for the eldar players turn. I'd really like to be wrong and have just missed something though

Does fortune work in your enemy's turn?

Guide, like fortune, is a blessing according to the rules for psychic power types in the BRB. Blessings last until the beginning of your next turn. The same goes for maladictions like doom. So, anytime you shoot when guide is active, including for overwatch, you benefit from re-rollable to-hit dice.
.

So the brb overules the codex for this one? I thought I couldn't do it as the codex wording is 're-roll any failed to hit rolls for that turns shooting phase' - I didn't take the fact it was a blessing into account - Thanks - thats a nice bonus for my next game

So the brb overules the codex for this one? I thought I couldn't do it as the codex wording is 're-roll any failed to hit rolls for that turns shooting phase' - I didn't take the fact it was a blessing into account - Thanks - thats a nice bonus for my next game

You know... I didn't notice that! :/ Oh crap... I think that you are right. Fuuuuuu that means that guide really wrecks compared to prescience.

Thank-you for this discussion! It hasn't really mattered for me yet but that could have given me an unfair and illegal edge. Now I know. : )

Divination is looking ever more tempting...

It is probably the best tree to spend rolls on. 4/6 spells + the primaris power are usable in a variety of circumstances.

I still can't believe that I misread that bit about Guide! Merg! Haha.

To the power guide -> If you didn't come for free on Eldrad & weren't one of the cheapest powers to purchase I wouldn't bother with you. :-{p} <- (Bearded silly face)