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 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
It was actually shown in a study that insults will polarize people more than reasonable debates.

Ah the Obvious Research Center. Where would we be without it?

It's easy to dismiss it, but sometimes it needs to be said and kept in mind.

I'm not dismissing it at all. I'm saying it's common sense -- the most important kind of sense there is.

TBH, polarization is the only thing that makes all this discussion about SM possible. It's like the NFL. Is there really that big of a difference between the team you like and the team you don't like? There is if one team is awesome and the other team is utter gak!

So whenever you see a thread like this one, remember that insults made it possible.

The More You Know

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 Lynata wrote:
The irony being that those genetic defects or dark secrets are not any actual flaws either, but what endeared other players to whatever army they have chosen.

A thousand times yes!

This is what I see as the difference between seeing 40k as a "parallel universe" and seeing it as a sci-fi franchise. If you look at it as a parallel universe, with yourself as somehow "inside of it," you'd have to acknowledge that it would be hard to like the DA for the very reason that all in-universe values would point to their "dark secret" being genuinely undesirable. If you look at 40k as a sci-fi franchise (i.e., like a sane person would), you realize as Lynata has that these flaws are desirable traits. Put it another way, a Mary Sue can be flawed as long as the Mary Sue's "weakness" actually make her or him more powerful and appealing.

Aww, but I haven't gotten to throw any insults yet. Can I Manchu, please? I promise I'll be gentle!



Jokes aside, I'm more annoyed by Chaos Marines than I am by Ultras. Go figure.

Ultras just kind of ... exist.

 Manchu wrote:

 pretre wrote:
lol 'For my 800th post...'

And for my next trick, I'll explain why GK need to kill SoB to fight against Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
The irony being that those genetic defects or dark secrets are not any actual flaws either, but what endeared other players to whatever army they have chosen.

A thousand times yes!

This is what I see as the difference between seeing 40k as a "parallel universe" and seeing it as a sci-fi franchise. If you look at it as a parallel universe, with yourself as somehow "inside of it," you'd have to acknowledge that it would be hard to like the DA for the very reason that all in-universe values would point to their "dark secret" being genuinely undesirable. If you look at 40k as a sci-fi franchise (i.e., like a sane person would), you realize as Lynata has that these flaws are desirable traits. Put it another way, a Mary Sue can be flawed as long as the Mary Sue's "weakness" actually make her or him more powerful and appealing.

Well said.

 Melissia wrote:
Aww, but I haven't gotten to throw any insults yet. Can I Manchu, please? I promise I'll be gentle!

As long as you're gentle. After all, the SW can't take much.

 Lynata wrote:
The irony being that those genetic defects or dark secrets are not any actual flaws either, but what endeared other players to whatever army they have chosen. In most cases, those flaws are actually strengths in that they make someone fight better or just appear "more cool".

Oh for sure, thats kind of the point I was making, it makes the other chapters more interesting by comparison. The smurfs just seem that much more bland when they're all super status quo, perfect, and holier-than-thou. People don't want space marines who always to the right thing for the good of the IoM and are better than everyone else, they want space marines that sometimes do the right thing, but then sometimes also do their own "renegade" thing or freak out and start eating people.

Because Grimdark.

BlaxicanX wrote:
My response was basically "even if they had these things, people wouldn't like them".

Oh well then that's just wrong. If they had been written to be more interesting instead from the start, people would be more interested in them. Without the whole "We're the ideal SMs and we're perfect in every way, and you wish your primarch was as good as ours, and we have the thickest plot armor" people would hate them less. The point is that then they probably wouldn't have been the poster-boys in the first place.

Keep in mind, I'm not even one of those people who actually hates them, I just find them to be a bit stale. As I said earlier, I'll make fun of any chapter or faction, because in some way they're ALL written with OTT fluff. It's kind of the nature of 40k, and sometimes its silly.

I quite like them. Their flaw, I suppose, is their rigid Codex adherence. Sooner or later they come up against something that needs a bit of winging it to win, and then lo and behold you're being chucked out of the chapter for widdling on Gulliman's memory.

Graham McNeill chucked out that idea in Chains of Command. Turns out they can be flexible and rigid at the same time. "Ladies, please."

The image of the Ultras depends on McNeill ?

I'd buy the idea their image may benefit or suffer from their HH-stories.
The current time line however, needs a rigid exorcism of specific not so well done fluff.
Should be easy, 6th ed seems on a good course..

 Manchu wrote:
Graham McNeill chucked out that idea in Chains of Command. Turns out they can be flexible and rigid at the same time. "Ladies, please."

Not read that one, truth be told. How odd that they suddenly changed...

 Fotherington-Thomas wrote:
I quite like them. Their flaw, I suppose, is their rigid Codex adherence. Sooner or later they come up against something that needs a bit of winging it to win, and then lo and behold you're being chucked out of the chapter for widdling on Gulliman's memory.

And that's the ticket -they don't have a direct physical flaw, they have a psychological flaw which is a result of their heritage and the psycho-conditioning they receive. Arrogance, inflated opinions of themself, overconfidence. The Codex can cover most of i but once something extraordinary comes along they have a problem. Calgar deciding to start the brand new Tyranid Hunter speciality was very controversial - if he didn't have the staus of Guilliman's Heir there might very well have been a revolt in the Chapter and successors. It was a serious breach against the Codex.

Wolves have flaws, Blood Angels have flaws, Dark Angels have secrets... The children of Guilliman have arrogance to work against.

 ragingmunkyz wrote:

Oh well then that's just wrong. If they had been written to be more interesting instead from the start,people would be more interested in them.

First off, that's tautological. Second off, "flaws" and "dark secrets" =\= "more interesting". Like I said, if Games Workshop revealed tomorrow that Ultramarines were half-horse and they've gone through great lengths to hide their half-horse mutations from the Inquisition, people who don't like Ultramarines wouldn't suddenly be like "omg, Ultramarines are awesome!"

BlaxicanX wrote:
First off, that's tautological. Second off, "flaws" and "dark secrets" =\= "more interesting". Like I said, if Games Workshop revealed tomorrow that Ultramarines were half-horse and they've gone through great lengths to hide their half-horse mutations from the Inquisition, people who don't like Ultramarines wouldn't suddenly be like "omg, Ultramarines are awesome!"

First off, it isn't tautological. Just because something is interesting, doesn't mean people will be interested, because interest is subjective. I asserted that if smurfs were written better, people would have been more likely to care about them. Again, those are simply examples, and on their own they don't equal interesting, but given the proper context, they can and do. A dark secret, for example, is a tropes which can be used to create conflict, and conflict is at the heart of all good stories. Character flaws can add depth and humanity, depth makes a story more engaging and humanity makes it more relatable. Tragic flaws and the path to redemption or downfall are classic writing elements, and great catalysts. I could go into more detail but I don't feel like teaching you creative writing 101. Suffice it to say, many people feel that Ultrasmurfs in the fluff are rather one dimensional and bland, so they don't particularly care for them.

Secondly, thats both a straw man and reductio ad absurdum at the same time, so nice job on the two for one I guess? I never said or suggested that if they changed the Ultramarine fluff tomorrow, people would magically care. I specifically said if they had a better/different backstory from the beginning, people might have liked them more to begin with. Of course, it wouldn't make a difference in the case of your asinine suggestion, and its a bit late for a makeover now anyhow. All of that aside, I never presented an uninteresting background as the only reason for the hate, and I can see its pointless to continue responding to your myriad logical fallacies.

Good day, sir.

 Melissia wrote:
Oh god this thread again.

Most people don't really hate the Ultramarines. They're just annoyed at how they're the poster boys, oftentimes being poster-boys to the point of self-parody.

End discussion.

Sort of like how I totally loath ALL space marines for all their overly promoted fuss.




*with the exception of the Mentor Legion, they are great.

It come from 3 things.

1) They are the face of the Space Marines. This isnt necessarly a problem except for the fact GW over uses them. Any picture and any event of a SM victory is always the UMs. Again, not a huge problem but it can annoy people if over done.

2) They are very vanilla, nothing too unqiue about them. This is done as a guide for new players to find and develop a chapter that isnt weird as that can annoy players. This leads to an annoyance that they are "boring"

3) Fluff is overdone. There is a lot of pride players have for the other SM chapters. The UM fluff is very "the ultramarines are the greatest ever with the greatest warriors ever." This actually pisses people off as again, they may prefer other chapters and dont like the fact that fluff says that their prefered chapter is an inferior chapter.

They don't. People are pretty ambivalent about them, with a narrow margin leaning towards a positive opinion. And as a warning to the OP, after I posted the Objective Ultramarine Hate Thread, I was spammed by a few Ultramarines fans who threatened me, berated me, and promised to spam my thread until the mods locked it. (Which they then proceeded to do.) Just a warning that the same guys may come after your thread.

I just hate the sight of them everywhere: codex, posters and boring army choices (No offense to Ultramarine players). My self I believe its time for a change in poster boys maybe Space Wolves or Dark Angels.

The Space Wolves are only the poster boys for "First Founding has its Privileges".

Any other Chapter from any other Founding that did what the Space Wolves have done would find it and its homeworld purged from the Galaxy, first by virus bombing, then cyclonic torpedo, and then that co-ordinate in space would be sown with anti-matter so that nothing could ever grow there again.

And I say that as someone who actually *likes* the Space Wolves.

Personally, I initially went with the Dark Angels more on the basis of high-tech and Neon-colored armor seemed incongruous to me.
So I was left with Dark Angels who wore dark green armor.

I know I jest about the Ultrasmurfs. About how they seem to always be duped or on the other side of the galaxy when some major event takes place within the Imperium. My favorite joke is that this is due to the Ultra-press... No matter if the Smurfs are incompetent or idiots, there is always the Ultra-press to blame it on others or excuse it away so that the Ultrasmurfs will always be put in a positive light...

The only point of contention is the blanket statements that every marine aspires to be an Ultramarine causes a resentment.

Why do people hate the Ultramarines?

Because they're jealous.

GO TRUE BLUE!

Tiberius Atellus wrote:
After joining Dakka I see alot of Ultramarine hate calling them Smurfs and the like. Where does all that come from? For the record i'm not that into the Ultramarines, my favorite chapters are the Grey Knights and Black Templars.

Because they seem like arrogant douch-bags. Granted that's what i garner from the fluff, but other than that they seem pretty high and mighty since all the chapters look to them and their primarch wrote the Codex Astartes. My response is usually, "Good for you, hey wait, where's your wargear?" They then say, "What the...DAMN BLOOD *cough*magpies*cough* RAVENS!!!"

 pretre wrote:
Not Blood Angels related, but I thought this was priceless:

You really do like finding new ways to rub gak in the faces of anyone who criticises GW, don't you?


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 Manchu wrote:
And for my next trick, I'll explain why GK need to kill SoB to fight against Chaos.

And after that he'll formulate an elaborate reason why Dragio is an allegory for man's suffering and the futility of fighting Chaos when really it's just a badly written piece of gakky fan-fiction.

How is showing that GW hate is timeless rubbing gak in anyone's face?

I personally think the hatred of the Ultramarines are down to the fans. It's like with Manchester United. For every good Ultramarine-fan you will meet 10 bad ones. Its just a numbers-game. Also it doesn't help that they are written as more Mary Sueish than the man who should be the ultimate Mary Sue, the Emperor.

To be honest, the Emperor is depicted as kind of a dick in the HH series.

I wonder if, after 6th drops, people will hate Ultras less. Because, to be frank, some of the 5th edition fluff really must set non-Ultra's teeth on edge.

As someone who started with an Ultramarine army, even I rolled my eyes at "Such divergent Chapters play little part in this volume, for this is the tale of the Ultramarines, and all those who follow their example" in Codex - Space Marines. FFS, guys.



My pick for 6th edition's Space Marines cover boys, and hate targets, are... let me think... Lamenters. You read it here first.

Bah the Lamenters. The Emperor's Weeping-ladies. I still can't believe that GW authorized a chapter named after women who scratch their cheeks and weep during funerals.

Tiberius Atellus wrote:
After joining Dakka I see alot of Ultramarine hate calling them Smurfs and the like. Where does all that come from? For the record i'm not that into the Ultramarines, my favorite chapters are the Grey Knights and Black Templars.

Because, at the end of the day, for all their hatred, for all their multi-paragraph posts spewing vitriol and rage at the boys in blue, these posters, know one fact... No matter their accomplishments, they can never be Ultramarines.

Which is a good thing, we don't need any ultramarines here anyway.