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 xSPYXEx wrote:

 Goat wrote:
Why aren't we talking about how broken and OP heroic morale is on daemonic instability? omg double 1's I just got back everything you thought you killed. GG bro.

Because that's not a big deal? If they fail their leadership test, they get sucked back into the warp. If the assault went particularly bad and they ended up losing by more than five, then double ones are literally the only thing keeping them from completely and immediately disappearing from the board. With any of the troop daemons, you have a 50% chance of taking extra wounds if you lose by even ONE.

And all you guys whining about "OMG ON 11 A PSYKER GETS POSSESSED" or "ZOMFG YOU GET A NEW UNIT ON 12", have you read the other eight results? One of them includes the possibility of the ENTIRE ARMY BEING DESTROYED INSTANTLY. How OP is that now?

You want something to whine about? What about taking eight Heralds of Tzeentch with Psyker Mastery 3 in squads of 15 Pink Horrors. That's Assault 36D6 S6 shots from one unit. Cry about that, not about the unlikely chance that one of your psykers gets overpowered by the magic energy that he's stealing from the people he's fighting or the extra unit that can try to deepstrike onto the board.

We are not saying that the warp storm chart is OP we are saying its bad for the game for a few reasons.

1. Killing someones HQ on some random roll will piss people off I like having fun not making people mad
2. Deamon player killing his own army could wildly swing the game making the guy across the table feel like he did nothing to win the game.
3. Free Scoring unit that deep strikes in the shooting phase is going to win the deamon player games if he/she roll box cars in the late game making the deamon player feel he did nothing to win the game and just lucked out.
4. Blast templates scattering all over the field of play randomly killing things is going down the same road.

This is not good for the game because people that don't want play Chaos deamons still have to deal with this chart and the chart IMHO makes for a bad game of 40k I would feel as if I just wasted 3 hours if any of the things happened like they are really likely too happen rolling on the chart as much as you have to.

Warp storm is the dumbest idea GW has had in years.

tgf wrote:
Warp storm is the dumbest idea GW has had in years.

So was the IG codex, Space Puppy Long Fangs, Necron Flyers, JotWW.... hear this every time a new codex comes out.

I think the table is a great, fun addition to the army. Of course people who only care about winning tounaments are butt-hurt about it. Those of us who like to play to have fun don't think the sky is falling...yet.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
I think the table is a great, fun addition to the army. Of course people who only care about winning tounaments are butt-hurt about it. Those of us who like to play to have fun don't think the sky is falling...yet.

This attitude of hate towards tourney players is not the issue I think its worse for the casual player Neil from the 11th company posted this and I think it says it all.

I actually do find this level of randomness much less entertaining in casual play than competitive play. In a competitive scene, you are always hedging your bets against odds and used to getting screwed.

In a casual scene, I'm generally trying to do fun things but wait, I can't beacuse I just rolled something stupid on a chart. Hell, using this, I can't even theoretically sand bag a weaker opponent because he might kill himself before my eyes.

This goes beyond competitive and casual play though and extends into way more in this book than the Warp Storm chart.

There are SEVERAL instances of special rules in this book which ultimately just create "un-fun" scenarios. Randomness can create fun, but randomness that creates frustration as a result is NOT going to be fun, regardless of how you are playing the game.

There are several special rules in this book where it's nutshell is: "most rolls don't matter, one roll is going to really frustrate/make your opponent mad, one roll is going to really frustrate make you made."

For example, the Demonic Instability rolls. you roll double 1's or double 6's and what's going to happen is NOT "so fun random result!"... what's going to happen is one player or the other getting very frustrated while his opponent feels bad that he is getting frustrated.

It's simply poor game design. You should never design uncontrollable events into a game which will net frustration... they should always net FUN. Like GW says, fun for both YOU and YOUR OPPONENT.
- See more at: http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/post48459.html#p48459

 MDizzle wrote:

We are not saying that the warp storm chart is OP we are saying its bad for the game for a few reasons.

1. Killing someones HQ on some random roll will piss people off I like having fun not making people mad
2. Deamon player killing his own army could wildly swing the game making the guy across the table feel like he did nothing to win the game.
3. Free Scoring unit that deep strikes in the shooting phase is going to win the deamon player games if he/she roll box cars in the late game making the deamon player feel he did nothing to win the game and just lucked out.
4. Blast templates scattering all over the field of play randomly killing things is going down the same road.

This is not good for the game because people that don't want play Chaos deamons still have to deal with this chart and the chart IMHO makes for a bad game of 40k I would feel as if I just wasted 3 hours if any of the things happened like they are really likely too happen rolling on the chart as much as you have to.

1. Because we don't already have a bunch of abilities that can already one-shot characters on a lucky roll...

2. If the Daemon player insta-gibs their entire army on Turn 1, then I'd say their dice that day were bad enough that even without the chart they would've been royally screwed!
You know what, I think Marines are bad for the game because I can't seem to ever pass more than 25% or so of my saves! We need to ban Marines so I don't feel that I've cheated myself or my opponent through bad luck!

3. And that only happens IF the Daemon player is going second AND rolls the relevent result AND sticks their deep strike.
And who says I'd feel cheated if I won that way? If all my Troops have been wiped out already and suddenly the Gods bless me with some reinforcements, I'm not about to say, "oh dear, this is 100% unfair to you Mr.Opponent, I think I'll just forget about it and you can keep your victory."

4. Yes, because Daemons are such a game-breaking gunline already. And it's not like IG can throw down 'oodles of templates that scatter about and kill random crap either...



When you fight Daemons you're now fighting the Warp itself as well. Get over it and deal with it.
(BTW, isn't that the exact same line we got fed by the masses of GK players who've just spent the past two years auto-stomping us into the ground?!)

 MDizzle wrote:

When you fight Daemons you're now fighting the Warp itself as well. Get over it and deal with it.
(BTW, isn't that the exact same line we got fed by the masses of GK players who've just spent the past two years auto-stomping us into the ground?!)

lol, Exalted!

Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 MDizzle wrote:

When you fight Daemons you're now fighting the Warp itself as well. Get over it and deal with it.
(BTW, isn't that the exact same line we got fed by the masses of GK players who've just spent the past two years auto-stomping us into the ground?!)

lol, Exalted!

I didn't write that it was a quote from a different poster

 Danny Internets wrote:
It seems as though this whole thread is split between people who approach 40k as a more passive, cinematic experience where the goal is to shuffle one's army mans around the board and simply "see what happens" and others who actually enjoy employing tactics and strategy and dislike minimizing their impact on who wins the game. Neither approach is superior to the other (they each simply represent a different way of deriving enjoyment from the game), but people from each camp will naturally react differently (and predictably) to the introduction of the warp storm chart.

The notion that Daemon players and their opponents who aren't offended by the warpstorm chart aren't competitive is pure drivel. Likewise the assumption that tactics and strategy are not affected by the random events that occur on battlefields is massively uninformed. The warpstorm table, mysterious terrain, deepstrike mishaps, perils of the warp and the like are all events that strategies must overcome. Assuming that a player is somehow less competitive because they're less likely to whine about a challenge inherent to playing a specific army or against it is just complete fail.

Sure, on an 11 your Ld 10 Librarian has a chance of becoming the Daemonic Herald everyone always warned him about if he kept playing those books. You can mitigate the threat by just taking one, or at least prepare for the slight eventuality of it. My SoB army won't see it as a problem at all. On a 3 the warpstorm chart requires the Daemon player to roll the same 3d6 leadership check against his character of ANY type. Khorne isn't immune to it, nothing is. While you're safe rolling that 10, Daemons stand a large chance of losing a character with anything over an average roll. Daemons get a random sized (5-15) unit of basic troops with a 12 result. Oh the horror! How many do you think they're going to lose with even average instability dice when the warpstorm chart comes up snake eyes?

Do Daemon players need to hone up on their skills and find a way to keep the warp storm chart from slowing down the game any more than say reanimation protocols, sure. I'm already devising warp storm tokens for the various effects of the different powers as well as warpflame tokens that will make it easier for my opponents and myself to remember what the hell is going on where.

Just don't assume that since I'm looking forward to the challege of it, I'm somehow less capable of understanding the use of interior lines or recognizing when I'm in an inferior position.

Experiment 626 wrote:
1. Because we don't already have a bunch of abilities that can already one-shot characters on a lucky roll...

Yes, jaws and others exist. Everybody knows that. The sky is blue and I like chocolate. So? Can we go back to: "Warp storm Chart is this bad for 40k?", not to: "Warp storm Chart do other similar mechanics exists?".
You say it's not bad, so you approve other mechanics that one-shot characters (like the quoted JOTWW)?

Kinda reminds me of the old RoC "Rituals of Engagement" rules. In those days, playing Daemon v Daemon armies allowed each player to establish a set number of Rules, as handed down by the Ruinous Powers, that would govern the battle.

For example, if you had agreed on one Ritual per player, it could go something like this:

Player One: "It is decreed that, on this field, no soldier may dress in red. Nor shall crimson or russet be seen."

(Both players remove any model with any red or crimson paint on its armor or uniform from the table.)

Player Two: "It is decreed that, on this field, the mettle of forces shall be tested by strength of arm alone. Those who kill from afar, or by sorcerous means, excepting that those means are performed in melee, will earn the great disfavor of the Chaos Gods."

(Both players remove any model that has no close-combat attack, or WS 0, and any sorcerer or psyker with no CCW or CC abilities. For the rest of the battle, all units must engage opposing units in CC, or be instantly removed from the table).

... and now Turn 1 begins.

 Macok wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
1. Because we don't already have a bunch of abilities that can already one-shot characters on a lucky roll...

Yes, jaws and others exist. Everybody knows that. The sky is blue and I like chocolate. So? Can we go back to: "Warp storm Chart is this bad for 40k?", not to: "Warp storm Chart do other similar mechanics exists?".
You say it's not bad, so you approve other mechanics that one-shot characters (like the quoted JOTWW)?

The point he is making is powers/abilities that you cant control or defend against make for crappy game (dreadfleet).

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Macok wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
1. Because we don't already have a bunch of abilities that can already one-shot characters on a lucky roll...

Yes, jaws and others exist. Everybody knows that. The sky is blue and I like chocolate. So? Can we go back to: "Warp storm Chart is this bad for 40k?", not to: "Warp storm Chart do other similar mechanics exists?".
You say it's not bad, so you approve other mechanics that one-shot characters (like the quoted JOTWW)?

The point he is making is powers/abilities that you cant control or defend against make for crappy game (dreadfleet).

And yet, did the hobby, as a whole, agree to not use Warp-Quake lists? No? Well, there we go then. Feth it, ruck on.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
I think the table is a great, fun addition to the army. Of course people who only care about winning tounaments are butt-hurt about it. Those of us who like to play to have fun don't think the sky is falling...yet.

Just no Making the game become a dice poker to avoid winning list is just bad game design. Yes, you can screw up WAAC lists but you also take the fun from people who like to play strategic. Good game design would be a much less random but much more balanced game, where there is no OP list.

I don't like the WAAC lists for the same reason as random stuff, both are dumb.

We are not the same, you can have fun that your OP units crash the chance-less other units, you can have fun the way random stuff happens and someone get screwed up for no real reason, or you can have fun planing forward, build a strategy, try to put your rights unit right time right place, take advantage of terrain....

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 MDizzle wrote:
After reading this Thread sometimes I think GW could print a codex that says roll on this table and on a roll of an 11 you have to pay GW 50 bucks and people would love it and say that it's fluffy because GW loves money and competitive players can pound sand.

Pretty much.

T3 5++ save foot slogging assault army with no grenades that can screw itself in multiple ways and forces you to keep a stack of notes and roll a couple dozen dice every game to see if your army is any good? Nah, nothing wrong there. Seems legit.

Yeah cause its not like those units are so cheap you can field over 100 of them for under 1000 points, or that they either have 2+ cover saves, throw a crapton of S6 shots, or will rape your opponent (literally in the case of daemonettes) once they make it into assault. On top of which you have just a good a chance of screwing your opponent over as screwing yourself with warp storm. Wow, you know what I just realized? Having an equal chance to screw ether yourself or your opponent? i think they call that BALANCE

Orks have an ass load of shooting and over a hundred models with 5+ cover saves, and its not hard to beat a green tide, the difference is Orks dont nuke themselves so its not balance, thats called unreliable, and that isnt fun, its stupid. The point is dont make rules that will piss off 99% of the people that it happens to.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 MDizzle wrote:
After reading this Thread sometimes I think GW could print a codex that says roll on this table and on a roll of an 11 you have to pay GW 50 bucks and people would love it and say that it's fluffy because GW loves money and competitive players can pound sand.

Pretty much.

T3 5++ save foot slogging assault army with no grenades that can screw itself in multiple ways and forces you to keep a stack of notes and roll a couple dozen dice every game to see if your army is any good? Nah, nothing wrong there. Seems legit.

Yeah cause its not like those units are so cheap you can field over 100 of them for under 1000 points, or that they either have 2+ cover saves, throw a crapton of S6 shots, or will rape your opponent (literally in the case of daemonettes) once they make it into assault. On top of which you have just a good a chance of screwing your opponent over as screwing yourself with warp storm. Wow, you know what I just realized? Having an equal chance to screw ether yourself or your opponent? i think they call that BALANCE

Orks have an ass load of shooting and over a hundred models with 5+ cover saves, and its not hard to beat a green tide, the difference is Orks dont nuke themselves so its not balance, thats called unreliable, and that isnt fun, its stupid. The point is dont make rules that will piss off 99% of the people that it happens to.

Implying yourself and this online community is 99% of 40k players.

Dont be thick, name 1 person that likes having JoWW used successfully on them.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Dont be thick, name 1 person that likes having JoWW used successfully on them.

Name one person that doesn't play Necrons that likes Pokeballs , MSS and Imotek Lightning.

You're helping my point, those are all annoying as hell game mechanics, they should strive to avoid them. Annoying tactics/gimmicks are usually a sure fire way to wreck a sportsmenship score.

If you don't play tournies, there's no Sportsmanship Score to worry about, really.

And if a bit of wargear or a Special Rule from a codex affects the Sportsmanship Score? That's a terrible way to score a game. Sportsmanship should, primarily, be the score for Not Being A Dick at the table. Maybe a "you sure you want to approach that unit? That's my MSS-toting Lord in that mob" or something, letting the other player have an idea for what they're in for when they still have a chance to withdraw (before you assault them the next turn).

 Ravenous D wrote:
You're helping my point, those are all annoying as hell game mechanics, they should strive to avoid them. Annoying tactics/gimmicks are usually a sure fire way to wreck a sportsmenship score.

Why would you wreck a sportsmanship score over a codex rule? You don't rate the list with sportsmanship, you rate the player.

I quite like the warp storm table.

Sure, 1 result can destroy your entire army (if you roll bad...), another makes it harder for you to live (-1 to ++ saves) but it gives daemon players firepower that can hurt them as well, and there will only be a massive amount of blasts if 1 or both sides are using MSUs.

Possession only effects psykers... and only if they fail a 3D6 Ld test...

Yes it's random... but, really the entire game is random... build a bridge and get over it... change your tactics.

Mohoc wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
You're helping my point, those are all annoying as hell game mechanics, they should strive to avoid them. Annoying tactics/gimmicks are usually a sure fire way to wreck a sportsmenship score.

Why would you wreck a sportsmanship score over a codex rule? You don't rate the list with sportsmanship, you rate the player.

In a perfect system that would be the case, Ive seen people nuke scores over army plenty of times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
If you don't play tournies, there's no Sportsmanship Score to worry about, really.

And if a bit of wargear or a Special Rule from a codex affects the Sportsmanship Score? That's a terrible way to score a game. Sportsmanship should, primarily, be the score for Not Being A Dick at the table. Maybe a "you sure you want to approach that unit? That's my MSS-toting Lord in that mob" or something, letting the other player have an idea for what they're in for when they still have a chance to withdraw (before you assault them the next turn).

Even in casual games some people dont want to play against things that annoy them, there is a guy that runs the Tyrants legion and no one wants to play him, nice enough general, but his army is a douchelord. Its the same reason why people get butt hurt over Forgeworld, I dont know why they do but the point is that they do.

What in the Tyrants legion list is annoying? It's a watered-down Space Marine with IG ally army list that doesn't get the best units from either codex. How odd.

Honestly I prefer playing with the warp storm table than all those gifts.


GIFTS FOR THE GIFT GOD.

literally sat down for 2 hours waiting for my opponent to roll all the gifts and powers. (on the bright side the dark gods felt it right to punish him at the last moment killing his warlord (his only model on the field) on turn 4 with a roll of a 3) lol)

If you don't like possesion stop taking psykers. Nothing else on the random table is too overpowered that I can see. Considering how powerful psykers are right now the more hard counters to them the better I feel.

 Desubot wrote:
Honestly I prefer playing with the warp storm table than all those gifts.


GIFTS FOR THE GIFT GOD.

literally sat down for 2 hours waiting for my opponent to roll all the gifts and powers. (on the bright side the dark gods felt it right to punish him at the last moment killing his warlord (his only model on the field) on turn 4 with a roll of a 3) lol)

At least most (all?) of the Gifts these days are useful.. Back in the day, you could have a dude lose all his limbs and have to be carried into battle in someone else's backpack, or tied to a spawn-mount or something. Or have your head burst into flames. Or get too fat to wear regular armor, and have to beg Chaos Armor off your HQ. Or get "Uncontrollable Flatulence", which made you *real* popular in the barracks.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Macok wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
1. Because we don't already have a bunch of abilities that can already one-shot characters on a lucky roll...

Yes, jaws and others exist. Everybody knows that. The sky is blue and I like chocolate. So? Can we go back to: "Warp storm Chart is this bad for 40k?", not to: "Warp storm Chart do other similar mechanics exists?".
You say it's not bad, so you approve other mechanics that one-shot characters (like the quoted JOTWW)?

The point he is making is powers/abilities that you cant control or defend against make for crappy game (dreadfleet).

And yet, did the hobby, as a whole, agree to not use Warp-Quake lists? No? Well, there we go then. Feth it, ruck on.

+1
The number of times that happened to me...
Every single GK player at my local store would keep a Quake-list handy just for Daemons/DoA's/Drop Pod Marines. And you know what all of us who were forced to suffer got told? "It's part of the game now - deal with it."

So suck-it-up-buttercup. Us Daemons bring our random-funhouse-realm along for the ride when we party on the Myan's calander!

List tailoring is a completely different issue, besides thats what fiends were for.

 Psienesis wrote:


And yet, did the hobby, as a whole, agree to not use Warp-Quake lists? No? Well, there we go then. Feth it, ruck on.

Again tailoring.

It's not a completely different issue, not at all, and not really. What I'm getting from this is that it's OK to bring an Army that contains special rules or wargear that nukes the other army (whether that's Warp-Quake, Mindshackle Scarabs, Purifiers, a fethload of fliers, a buttload of barrage artillery, JotWW, whatever)... but a single table that's rolled, what, once? that has a chance of affecting a single character from an army that has to even contain that character-type for that result to mean anything, and if it contains multiples of that character-type its effect is randomly distributed, but has equal chance of affecting the Daemon army negatively, or at least differently, is bad?

That... just sounds like whining to me, really.