Switch Theme:

Possible Realism in 40k  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Short swords / long knives are still useful in modern times. Usually they're used as bayonets, but not always.

A chainsword however lacks many of the advantages of a long knife.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/09 01:38:18


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Eetion wrote:
Today blade weapons are obsolete. But something is obsolete only if its deemed to be so.
If someone devises a way of impllementing melee easily, they have an massive advantage if they are equipped for it.

Take a look at the film 'Aliens' for all the quality of the marines, they were totally unprepared for melee. I know its. A scuzzy example but I hope it proves my point.

If faced with an enemy where melee is a factor and can implement it effectively, it won't be long before bladed weapons are no longer considered obsolete.


Aliens = Genestealers - so its a valid comparison.

They are fast, agile and designed to fight in close quarters in confined spaces which I imagine is a nightmare possibility to most enemies esp if you have to clear an area with boots on the ground?

There does also seem to be intimidation factor about troops that are prepared and indeed willing to attack with melee weapons - the Gurkhas have a very striking reputation and it procedes them to the deteriment of their foes - for instance in the Falklands War. Also remember this is not one small unit in the British army - according to wiki the Indian army has (in 2009) 42,000 of them!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/09 10:53:14


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest





Spetulhu wrote:
And it is certainly true that something's gone wrong if you find yourself using a knife instead of shooting people on a modern battlefield, but it happens. For example, a british patrol had to do a bayonet charge in Afghanistan a couple of years ago because they saw no other option. They somehow blundered into an ambush and found themself pinned in a ditch with enemies shooting at them from only 30-40 meters away. Sticking up your head and picking a shot is a bit hard in that situation so the sergeant asked a couple lads to fix bayonets and follow him so the rest could take firing positions. The brits won, and IIRC didn't even suffer losses. That's more to do with the poor quality of the enemy than any particular knife magic though. Actual weapons training usually wins when the other side is shouting religious slogans and spraying bullets in the general direction of the target.

The British built an empire on the idea that the best solution to a bad situation is to fix bayonets and charge.

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Arcsquad12 wrote:
The only reason it is used is because in 40K they are back to using Soviet tactics and they are lead by chivalric future Knights.


Mostly Hollywood soviet tactics.The Red Army didn't win it's "Great Patriotic War" by being stupid.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Make a full body suit and shield from carbon nanotubes, + A gladius or spear. At the same time modify the Abrams chassis to allow it to carry a bunch of men standing up with assault ramps in the front. BAM 21st Century Hoplites/legionaries.

and the chainsword has some advantages, it would be an amazing psychological weapon. kind of like the flamerthrower.. except it doesn't have the range or the ability to turn what ever it hits into charcoal...

"I LIEK CHOCOLATE MILK" - Batman
"It exist because it needs to. Because its not the tank the imperium deserve but the one it needs right now . So it wont complain because it can take it. Because they're not our normal tank. It is a silent guardian, a watchful protector . A leman russ!" - Ilove40k
3k
2k
/ 1k
1k 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Danbury, CT

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Make a full body suit and shield from carbon nanotubes, + A gladius or spear. At the same time modify the Abrams chassis to allow it to carry a bunch of men standing up with assault ramps in the front. BAM 21st Century Hoplites/legionaries.

and the chainsword has some advantages, it would be an amazing psychological weapon. kind of like the flamerthrower.. except it doesn't have the range or the ability to turn what ever it hits into charcoal...


No, but if the supply chain should fail........

Ultramarines Legion 138th Company
Ultramarines Legion 19th Reserve Armour Company

Merican 1st Infantry "Merican Legion" 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought





The Beach

If the supply chain fails, you run out of bullets too. /shrug


And food.
And water.


And you lose.



The fuel component is really the least of the practical deficiencies of a chainsword, espcially if you can come up with an alternate power source that could, say, power laser rifles and armored power suits, etc.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

True Scale Space Marines: Tutorial, Posing, Conversions and other madness. The Brief and Humorous History of the Horus Heresy

The Ultimate Badasses: Colonial Marines 
   
Made in lt
Regular Dakkanaut





In w40k chainswords are also virtually non-existent among PDF troopers, same goes with any meele weapon.

I can't remember where any melee weapon was of widespread use in Imperial service other that as secondary weapon or weapon on well-armored units who with their natural ability to take a lot of punishment also are able to accelerate into respectable speed. Space marines usage of melee weapons comes from their own strength which enables them to amplify their melee weaponary to such heights that it becomes even more deadly than their standard ranged weaponary. In addition, by being able to accelerate quickly to massive speed you negate a great deal reaction time to your enemy. Also, you must remember that noone charges enemy through open field (fanatics, orks, tyranids, deamons and slaves are exception). They will usually use cover to their advantage and probably will only rush your defence's weak points.
So, do you still think that to get charged by tanks from half-hundred metres is better for you then to be able to fight them from range? First, your small arms are ineffective against them, second, your heavy weapon emplacements could easily be destroyed by grenades, third, shock would be immense and morale would suffer badly.


As for chainsword, they are far more effective in w40k universe than you think it is. They have mono-molecular sharpness with addition of being made from strongest of materials (probably adamantium itself). Also, I never had read of problems relating chainswords maintance, so I assume that technology behind them are quite refined. Also, I assume that chainswords are being fuelled by energy cells and have extremely powerful engines in order to slice and dice through light armor with ease.



In today's world, we cannot imagine melee weaponary. We live in golden age there everything must be served on a plate for us. We deluded ourselves with worth of human life. We had let weakness to creep into our bodies and mind, becoming selfish, undisciplined, weak-willed and so on. We are too weak to pay the price of war, so we despise it instead. Then you will witness slaves and fanatics charging your line while you are being pinned down by enemy fire, you will understand that you are fighting cannon fodder. Meaningless soldiers who serve only to give their betters one or two free shots on you before dieing.


Our continues development of offensive weaponary have caused warfare to be as deadly as it's now. But times are changing, with development of new generation of body armor, mobile anti-rocket defence (seen on tanks) and finally, some results from most promising laser technology, face of warfare is changing. Nations may not yet realised that old kind of warfare is coming back. A warfare, there are no ballistic weaponary available due to lasers capabilities of detonating rockets well before reaching their targets. Then tanks are shielded in by anti-projectile shields, making firefights into long battles with minimal casualties. Same with personal full body armor which would allow a soldier to survive a burst from small arms weapons further making a war less deadlier.
Now, lets assume that there will be a breakthrough in development of new super-resilient and cheap materials. That would mean a development of old fashioned bunkers. More than that, entire battle fortresses. By being extremely resilient to conventional weaponary and also, immune from weapons of mass destruction (due to laser shielding) they could afford to install massive artillery in order to bombard other continents. They on their own could win wars if given enough time.
It's quite realistic that battles would be fought near a massive, earth-shaking weapons who in order to breach would require w40k style sit and gun scenario there an army is just siting and firing to a wall in order to tear it down.
Due to all of that, I think that w40k are quite realistic. If our mastery in world's manipulation becomes similar to w40k, war would also become similar to theirs.


Even more, imagine that if Void shield becomes reality! That would mean that old-fashioned massive firefights in small areas once again becomes a norm. Due to that, fire-fields will become smaller leaving more place to close encounters. More than that, maybe even melee vanguard would be possible. Imagine: shielded in void shields (not personal of course) and racing to you in their chimeras. Forget one-shot kill. Drug filled, armoured, close-combat expert would kill you with just one mere quick hit while still sprinting. By being difficult to target and by their resilience they would cause panic in your midsts and would effectively negate any retreat.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/03/09 16:47:37


"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."

Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

KingDeath wrote:
 Arcsquad12 wrote:
The only reason it is used is because in 40K they are back to using Soviet tactics and they are lead by chivalric future Knights.


Mostly Hollywood soviet tactics.The Red Army didn't win it's "Great Patriotic War" by being stupid.


Yeah, but its not completely incorrect. When you have tons of bodies and lose the concern over casualities it does open other tactics up. And if the Imperium has one thing its lots of bodies.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 Grey Templar wrote:
KingDeath wrote:
 Arcsquad12 wrote:
The only reason it is used is because in 40K they are back to using Soviet tactics and they are lead by chivalric future Knights.


Mostly Hollywood soviet tactics.The Red Army didn't win it's "Great Patriotic War" by being stupid.


Yeah, but its not completely incorrect. When you have tons of bodies and lose the concern over casualities it does open other tactics up. And if the Imperium has one thing its lots of bodies.


Add in Stalin's great purge of officers that absolutely decapitated the Red Army just before the war (38?) and stupid is what they had until competent people got back up. People were suddenly leading units one or two levels above their previous rank with no experience and loyalty the only thing asked for.
   
Made in lt
Regular Dakkanaut





Manstein never acknowledged soviet tactics as something more than incompetence. Partly he was right, if he would have been given enough men,armor and aircraft to equal out power scales, then there could be no doubt that he would achieve at least decisive victory against Soviet Union. But on the other hand, then did quality army managed to match quantity army in size? That was a main point of soviet warfare. They had manpower to replace looses, they had vast manufacturing capabilities to replace lost vehicles, they had the will to fight this war for eternity. It didin't mattered if they lost 2 men for 1, even opposite, that was a good trade, because they were able far easier to replace casualties, than their foe.
But enough of ww2. This is off-topic and has nothing to do with this topic.


In answer of your original question: yes, I believe it's possible to make a similar chainsword with this world physics and chemistry. Another question: how useful it would be? Not much, there is simply noone who would be able to wield such weapon effectively. Also, there are no enemies against which this weapon would be considered useful. Furthermore, I would like to continue this topic on how accurate melee combat would be in real world. Given that we would fight foes from w40k universe.

"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."

Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points. 
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller






Carlisle, UK

Imperial Japanese Army utilised shinguto shortswords for Officers and NCO's. British armed forces use swords for ceremonial puroposes. Bayonets and knives are very much still useful. Firearms still kill but they run out of ammunition, jam or something. thats why CQB weapons are needed.


2000pts IG. ( based on fallout US Army)

3000pts XIIth Legiones Astartes 8th Assault Company. (Pre heresy)

never in the field of human conflict, has so much been fired at so many, by so few.

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions. Loyal servant to the true emperor Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
Please leave your message after the tone...
 
   
Made in de
Painting Within the Lines




Hamburg Germany

As war between professional, equally SOTA equipped armies has become improbable for now and for the near future, I believe it is futile to discuss if blank arms are undergoing a rennaissance. With nearly every conflict (including e.g. drug wars in Latin America or civil war in near-east countries) there are mobster-type or ill-equipped troupes involved. The question of high-develloped armies deployed against each other is not of big concern. With creativity and/or recklessness you can stop even the most highly shielded tank with low-tech. The Mogadishu rocket launchers ("Black Hawk Down") or the famous Molotov cocktails are examples of such creativity in history, another way used much too often is using civilians or captives as meatshields, cover or hostage. In situations like tunnel fights (-> Vietnam!) protection suits may be hindering, and pistols and knifes may be the only practicable weapon. Butchering warbands in Ruanda have made extensive use of swords in form of machetes. On the other hand, it is incredible what modern distance weapons can do. Try to laser-deflect a metal storm phalanx... or bring in a stealth-drone bearing a Daisycutter weapon. Why bother about close combat or ablative tank armour when you can kill every single living entity in a given area by means of burning the atmosphere itself?

In short, nearly everything thinkable can be useful as a weapon, and will eventually have it's use. It is not a question of technical development, but of environment, goal, availability and creativity. Swords and melee fight will always have their place along massive fire attacks, long-distance airstrikes and high tech special ops units, as will simple drop pits with wooden spears in it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/10 21:19:15


 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




Gunblaze West

 sierra 1247 wrote:
Imperial Japanese Army utilised shinguto shortswords for Officers and NCO's. British armed forces use swords for ceremonial puroposes. Bayonets and knives are very much still useful. Firearms still kill but they run out of ammunition, jam or something. thats why CQB weapons are needed.
If you run out of ammo or your gun jams in a combat situation you are fethed and it was probably your fault to begin with either due to improper fire control or substandard weapons maintenance ... if you are in a situation where you have to rely on your knife to survive either you or someone else fethed up majorly... if you expect CQB take a shotgun not a knife... knives are only useful in a behind-enemy-lines survival scenario. Knives and swords in today's miltary are either ceremonial or to be used in by a trooper in the same way a camper would use them as a tool not a weapon. Your enemy is not going to pull out their knife if they see you do so.... they are going to shoot you in your face and unless you are a jedi that knife wont help.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/11 03:00:56


 Kilkrazy wrote:
We moderators often make unwise decisions on Friday afternoons.
 kestril wrote:
Page 1: New guard topic
Page 2: FW debate
Page 3: Ailaros and Peregrine fight. TO THE DEATH
I swear I think those two have a hate-crush on each other sometimes.
 
   
Made in ca
Wing Commander






The Chainsword is indicitive of technology, and strategic realities, of the 40k setting itself. It isn't just a chainsaw after all, it's a rotary mono-molecular edged blade designed to hack through heavy armour, plating or otherwise hard-to-kill creatures, by an individual in incredibly durable armour with enhanced strength. Guardsmen don't really use CCWs unless they're fighting something that is close combat oriented, and only as a last-ditch effort, in which they usually die, unless fighting other humans.

Consider, for example, combat in the Dune setting. Personal shields are commonplace, but they're designed to stop high-velocity weapons, so a sword or knife becomes practical again; no one with a gun can do much to you, but someone with a blade can time their thrust right to go through your shield.

The chainsword is merely an extension of Space Marines, it matches their equipment, combat style, and the nature of their foes, and even then, marines prefer to shoot things, and only use things like a chainsword if they some ability to close distance against an inferior close combat enemy (via jump packs or the like) or again, as an auxiliary.

Ultimately, chainsword tech is "possible," but rather pointless in the modern world, as there's no niche for it to fill. Since the combat of today occurs between "mere humans," the most one has to account for is advanced bodyarmour or drugs, in which advanced ranged munitions are the solution, as our ballistics technology is superior to our armour technology, and massively ahead of any close combat technology. The "Chainsword" is only viable primarily due to power armour, and only used because a marine's opponents are often rather hard to kill with conventional weapons.

Therefore, I conclude, Valve should announce Half Life 2: Episode 3.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Chainswords have the same benefit as a bolter is. Its's a weapon designed to scare the gak out of someone because you have a giant terrifying superhuman about to either hack you apart with a giant, noisy bludgeon with whirling teeth attached, or blow you apart with a giant, noisy gun which blows you to bloody gibs if it hits you. In reali life there wouldn't be much value in that, but in 40K where thoughts and emotions (if strong enough or in sufficient quantity) can have a tangible effect on reality, psychological elements like that can have a potent effect (just ask any Ork.)

'realism' is probably the wrong word to use here, what it is about is 'plausibility' and internal consistency and you can effectively come up with any sort of rationalization to achieve those. REality is much more complex, and generally much harder to achieve in sci fi (to the point of being functionally impossible, scale defeats the individual.)
   
Made in au
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot






Sydney South West

i can imagine chain-daggers, definitely not 7 foot shainsaws
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller






Carlisle, UK

 Somedude593 wrote:
 sierra 1247 wrote:
Imperial Japanese Army utilised shinguto shortswords for Officers and NCO's. British armed forces use swords for ceremonial puroposes. Bayonets and knives are very much still useful. Firearms still kill but they run out of ammunition, jam or something. thats why CQB weapons are needed.
If you run out of ammo or your gun jams in a combat situation you are fethed and it was probably your fault to begin with either due to improper fire control or substandard weapons maintenance ... if you are in a situation where you have to rely on your knife to survive either you or someone else fethed up majorly... if you expect CQB take a shotgun not a knife... knives are only useful in a behind-enemy-lines survival scenario. Knives and swords in today's miltary are either ceremonial or to be used in by a trooper in the same way a camper would use them as a tool not a weapon. Your enemy is not going to pull out their knife if they see you do so.... they are going to shoot you in your face and unless you are a jedi that knife wont help.


Right, that is absolute bull. Weapons like the SA80 and M4 can jam frequently in the warzones that the US army and the British army (Afghanistan) are currently fighting in. Realisiticly there are very few firearms that are as reliable as you say, most notably the AA-12 and AK47's and their clones. Also if you were fethed every time you ran out of ammo then thered be a lot more soldiers killed in afghan, also thats another reason why combat knives still exist. not every infantrymen has access to silenced firearms and knives present a silent means of dispatching a hostile. Also the E&E thing is true, but being prepared for nothing is the biggest screw up possible. Hence Bravo Two Zero.


2000pts IG. ( based on fallout US Army)

3000pts XIIth Legiones Astartes 8th Assault Company. (Pre heresy)

never in the field of human conflict, has so much been fired at so many, by so few.

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions. Loyal servant to the true emperor Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
Please leave your message after the tone...
 
   
Made in fr
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





France

Ernestas wrote:
As for chainsword, they are far more effective in w40k universe than you think it is. They have mono-molecular sharpness with addition of being made from strongest of materials (probably adamantium itself). Also, I never had read of problems relating chainswords maintance, so I assume that technology behind them are quite refined. Also, I assume that chainswords are being fuelled by energy cells and have extremely powerful engines in order to slice and dice through light armor with ease.


In the book about Angron and Kharn, you have some pieces about chainweapons maintenance :Kharn needs to regularly change the teeth, and refuel the energy pack.

As for today's use, I am surprised nobody mentionned the sound. Most of today's elite units are somewhat "stealthy". Our heavier stuff (shields, heavy armour) is mostly used for deffusing bombs / riot control. Furthermore, as someone mentionned, only the space marines (and the like) pack this kind of weapon : they have also a morale role to play. Regular forces could be unsettled by 10 ft tall armoured tanks running at them with chainswords. Same goes for fancy officers, musicians and banners. Morale is not maintained nowadays like it was before. In skirmishes in cities in ruins, with modern weapons, charging the enemy in the open is not a great strategy... However, you still find some close combat is today's military training and modern engagement. Last week, french foreign legion attacked a bastion in Mali, and had to go hand to hand. It is hard imagining a legionnary carrying a chainsaw, making a hell of a noise, in african caves.

The main problem is the power source. What's make a knife a good backup weapon is that it requires low/no maintenance, and is useable in a variety of situations (like a hatchet BTW), which makes it rewarding to carry. You cannot expect soldiers running around with chainsaws (including chainsand fuel) in their backpack just in case they can use them.

   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





New Jersey

One of my favorite scenes in the zombie movie (one in the mall) was when the old man and the hot chick tried to use the chainsaws to get the zombies of the mall shuttle bus and as the bus swerved the old man cut the hot chick in half. Probably not a good idea to use one, at least while on a moving vehical.

   
Made in lt
Regular Dakkanaut





Hruotland


While I agree, that our discussion about renaissance of modern military is not for us and this topic, yet I strongly doubt that military analytics should not pay an utmost attention to development of new technologies and new possibilities it brings with it. Sadly, history shows again and again, that we are just simply incompetent at the matters of war and that raises a question: is our military theory and practice is once again obsolete? In any way, these questions are better left for different forum and most likely- to experts all together.


While I agree that even low-tech weapons can finely replace high-tech solutions, I still think that a loss of vehicle is A) A real every day risk that you have to commit into B) Incompetence. Vehicle wasn't equipped for conflict, supported or it was sended where it shouldn't be.
While low-tech can serve well, our technological superiority begins to negate that. For example, new developments in tank armor have significantly reduced their vulnerability in city fights which is the main tactical weakness of theirs today use.
Your weapons are experimental and most likely- expensive. That I'm afraid could be another problem of today's military. Technological advances simply is not going alongside with militaries budget to allow any kind of significant modernisation. While there are no need to have your entire army ready for war, I believe that every nation should have an experimental and action-intensive and well-equiped strike force. Sadly, with today's poisonous culture and way of thinking we may just end up unprepared for war and would only begin to learn during the conflict. On the other hand, why I should expect more? It's a typical way in that humans wage their wars...


Thinking about new ways to wage war is useful. Especially then you are trying to advance your warfare in a way which would counter your opponent. In this situation we have a country which are heavily dependant on its toys. If we would be able to negate availability of ballistic weaponary (including your slow moving giant target-bomb) then a warfare would shift back into more traditional state. Even more, satellites, electromagnetic warfare and cybernetic space are all new ways to wage war which would result only in more reliable ways of communication and vehicles.
It's partly why Imperial guard is seemingly so technologically awkward. In fact, they "refusal" to rely on more advance weaponary than it's needed reduces their risk to be a victim to any unexpected flaw in their technology. That way, you simply cannot cut their communications down and leave them disorganised, because they do not rely on some fancy satellite in orbit. You simply cannot rely on mechanical and electronical failures of Imperial Guard to win you a battle. And of course most importantly, you have to make all your shiny toys count. Imperial guard are built around brutal practicability and efficiency. Everything they have will do their job very well and cheaply. It's why I consider Tau technology to be a handicap to Tau as much as it's their salvation. More than that, Tau have yet to face their own versions of Men of Iron, rampage warp enhanced life-eater viruses or even the Death of the Innocent itself
(heh, now thinking about it, I realised that Imperium might just eradicate Tau outright if it would consider worth of its precious technology(that is another strength of Imperium. Try to steal something really high-tech from them)).
For example: in Damocles Crusade, Tau's hammerhead have proven to be a close match to Imperial guard Leman Russ. While most will take this as a proof of Tau's speed of technological advancement and achievement, I take this as an emberasment for Tau. While Tau indeed can match Imperium tanks in combat, they miss one major thing: Imperium never intended to make their Leman Russ'es powerful, even then this heavy tank is a pinnacle of "traditional" Imperial science and innovation. The point lies in their simplicit. They can be very easily made and maintained. Also, knowing the immensity of forge worlds, Imperium can manufacture them far cheaper and in far greater numbers than Tau ever could their hammerheads. So, true superiority will come then Tau will be able to trade more than just 1 for 1. Matching quantity army with quality army and managing to trade only in numerically equal terms is simply just a loss for Tau.
This also have some real life projections: is high-tech and high-price toys really that effective in grand scale warfare? Maybe if we would focus our technologies on reliability, easiness of use, cost and mass production we could achieve greater strategic and tactical superiority and then we would be able to wield far larger military.




Coming back to original question.

Khorne armies use melee combat extensively. How they do it? Well, Khorne hordes are usually depicted as an angry mob with some extremely deadly and well-equiped individuals. Why Khorne have so many to spare while others do not? Can it be, that followers of blood god recruit almost everyone to their ranks? Knowing that live in w40k is dirty cheap and effects of worshiping Khorne, can it be that a large mob charging you in murderous frenzy can be used effectively as a shock troops? If you remove all self-preservation and add tyranid-like effects of synapse to Blood god's worshipers can you simply overpower your foe's small arms firepower? Also, if it's possible to engage in melee combat, then shouldn't it be more beneficial to send well-trained and well-equiped close combat experts instead of trying to take out remaining resistance by firepower?
As I see, if we would consider human live meaningless and if we would manage to develop a drug who would mimic Khorne influence, serve as combat drug and on top of that would be dirty cheap to make then I can see how angry, self-armed mob could be used viably in todays conflict to great effect. Yet, that does not mean that one can ignore proper support for its rampaging horde. Entrenched positions should be softened first with artillery fire, heavy armor should be approached with armor-penetrating weaponary, heavy weapons emplacements should be taken out with grenades or grenades launchers. Mob should be covered with suppressing fire while it's charging, elite troops in it should ensure that high-value targets is taken out, that job will be done in the heat of battle.Yet Khorne armies often contains all standard troops and way of fighting. Melee combat is rarely used beyond urban areas and almost never in rushing well prepared positions without more conventional support.
I would like to remember that jet-packs are also widely used. Its usage on space marine is definitely extremely effective, but that about others? Can it be used by mere mortals? How orks do it with their jet-packs? Aren't its usage is still very effective for them despite solid attrition rate from being all soft and slow?

"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."

Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points. 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




Ernestas wrote:
Knowing that live in w40k is dirty cheap.


Oh yes, that's certainly also one reason CC is used in WH40K. Life is cheap, technology is expensive. Space Marines take years to train and years to replace when lost, yet they throw men into battle in order to recover a disabled tank or dreadnought because those things are so much more precious than a few marines. And close combat is scary. Being charged by jump pack troops weilding close combat weapons is probably a very frightening experience for all but the most hardened or battlecrazed enemies.
   
Made in ca
Nasty Nob





Canada

We cannot forget what Einstein said about world war 4.

Stomped

To Be Stomped
No One
My vision of how 40k ends: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5937830/1/Time-of-Ending-the-40k-Finale  
   
Made in au
Sneaky Sniper Drone





Ernestas wrote:
Hruotland

For example: in Damocles Crusade, Tau's hammerhead have proven to be a close match to Imperial guard Leman Russ. While most will take this as a proof of Tau's speed of technological advancement and achievement, I take this as an emberasment for Tau. While Tau indeed can match Imperium tanks in combat, they miss one major thing: Imperium never intended to make their Leman Russ'es powerful, even then this heavy tank is a pinnacle of "traditional" Imperial science and innovation. The point lies in their simplicit. They can be very easily made and maintained. Also, knowing the immensity of forge worlds, Imperium can manufacture them far cheaper and in far greater numbers than Tau ever could their hammerheads. So, true superiority will come then Tau will be able to trade more than just 1 for 1. Matching quantity army with quality army and managing to trade only in numerically equal terms is simply just a loss for Tau.
This also have some real life projections: is high-tech and high-price toys really that effective in grand scale warfare? Maybe if we would focus our technologies on reliability, easiness of use, cost and mass production we could achieve greater strategic and tactical superiority and then we would be able to wield far larger military.

While this is true, you must remember that the way that tau fight is very different to te imperiums tactics. While a hammerhead may be te direct equivalent of a leman russ in a straight-out fight, the leman russ was designed for staying power, while the hammerhead is designed with the tau philosophy in mind, which is all about guerilla tactics and it and run, rather than the "throw more men at it" tactics of the guard.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







Chainsword's will never be practical, they would b unweildly and heavy no matter how they are built by comparison to non chain weapons. They require fuel, unlike non chain weapons. Chainsaw's are not designed to cut quickly, and would break or bounce away from strong materials such as metal armours. If it stalls, you are screwed.

It's really cool in the fluff, but it's not in the slightest bit practical.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Evileyes wrote:
Chainsword's will never be practical, they would b unweildly and heavy no matter how they are built by comparison to non chain weapons. They require fuel, unlike non chain weapons. Chainsaw's are not designed to cut quickly, and would break or bounce away from strong materials such as metal armours. If it stalls, you are screwed.

It's really cool in the fluff, but it's not in the slightest bit practical.


A power weapon requires a power source, so saying chainswords are impractical because they require fuel is not a good argument.

Every weapon more complex than a knife requires some sort of fuel, ammo, etc...

A chainsword and a power weapon may take the same exact power pack, depending on the model. A universal battery, very efficient with the Munitorium needing to supply countless billions of troops with stuff.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Storm Trooper with Maglight





 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
chainswords no..chain weapon attachements yes...


silly ain't it


I can actually see a practical application to this - not as an offensive weapon, but as a tool for CQB room-clearing. Get it going, put a whole through the door, then peer through to get the target.

The Kasrkin were just men. It made their actions all the more astonishing. Six white blurs, they fell upon the cultists, lasguns barking at close range. They wasted no shots. One shot, one kill. - Eisenhorn: Malleus 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







 Grey Templar wrote:
 Evileyes wrote:
Chainsword's will never be practical, they would b unweildly and heavy no matter how they are built by comparison to non chain weapons. They require fuel, unlike non chain weapons. Chainsaw's are not designed to cut quickly, and would break or bounce away from strong materials such as metal armours. If it stalls, you are screwed.

It's really cool in the fluff, but it's not in the slightest bit practical.


A power weapon requires a power source, so saying chainswords are impractical because they require fuel is not a good argument.

Every weapon more complex than a knife requires some sort of fuel, ammo, etc...

A chainsword and a power weapon may take the same exact power pack, depending on the model. A universal battery, very efficient with the Munitorium needing to supply countless billions of troops with stuff.


Yes, on it's own, that's not enough to stop it being practical. That's why I also cited other reasons.

A spinning chainsaw, generates centrifugal force, so weilding it would be much slower than a force sword. It would also likely be much heavier than a force sword due to it's mechanical component's and thickness. And a force sword, is still a sword if the power runs out. A chainsword, is just a stick you can hit people with without power.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Never, ever look through the hole you just cut into a door where enemies may be behind the door. That is how you get shot in the face. You cut a hole in the door, then you throw a grenade through that hole.

When in doubt, grenade it out.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Sturmtruppen wrote:
 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
chainswords no..chain weapon attachements yes...


silly ain't it


I can actually see a practical application to this - not as an offensive weapon, but as a tool for CQB room-clearing. Get it going, put a whole through the door, then peer through to get the target.


Which is only one step away from being used as a weapon. Hey, I'd rev that thing to scare the crap out of the poor sods in the room I'm about to breech. Probably only thing scarier would be the rack of a shotgun.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: