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Yo yo people.

Ok, so I have waited for all the chaos books to come out to see what they had basically, and I have noticed a distinct lack or the mark of chaos undivided, I dont want to play any of the gods, nor do I want just the option of god specific weapons banner etc.

So the question is.. What happened to chaos undivided

Abaddon just kept failing. Like, bigtime. All the Gods got together and forgot their differences in order to launch one massive crusade and they couldn't even take the first major fortress, I suppose that would put a dampener on future attempts.

Basically, they decided that every warband is Chaos Undivided, so rather than having a "Mark of Chaos Undivided" (which was silly anyway because it implies that there is a Chaos Undivided to mark someone in the first place), they just said that anyone who is unmarked is Undivided.

Undivided warbands should contain followers of all four gods, because they now all play happily together.

 Formosa wrote:
Yo yo people.

Ok, so I have waited for all the chaos books to come out to see what they had basically, and I have noticed a distinct lack or the mark of chaos undivided, I dont want to play any of the gods, nor do I want just the option of god specific weapons banner etc.

So the question is.. What happened to chaos undivided

If you are a simple devoting to chaos undivided, then you are not *marked* by any chaos god so QED. There is no mark because there is no one doing the marking in the first place.

Chaos undivided is just the baseline CSM forces. There is no mark because there is no need for any kind of special benefits just for being a chaos follower. There was a past attitude that players needed some kind of reward to play chaos undivided, but I just see that as the baseline codex, where the "marked" units are already elites, because the "marked" units are more dedicated than the regularly CSMs and their supporting cultists and the like.

I never saw the point of a chaos undivided "mark", except as a way to encourage people to not play one of the big 4...

Skriker

Playing undivided is already the most powerful option, as you can mix and match marks and cult troops freely to get the best possible unit for each task. It is the mono-god armies that should get some sort of a buff to compensate for intentionally gimping themselves for flavour reasons.

.they should have brought undivided back to distinguish the difference between renegade and chaos marines for starters.

Another reason is simply undivided units do exist and it is a faction, just like the big 4.

Saying that a naked chaos warrior/marine squad is undivided simply for lack of having a mark is also not true, it's a mark, not a lack of a mark that defines them as undivided, otherwise they are just renegades or plain old warrior's.

... they should have kept the Hatred rules from RoC. Khorne did not ally with Slaanesh. Ever. Tzeentch did not ally with Nurgle. Ever.

Formosa - that's what Veterans of the Long War is for. Renegades don't take it. True chaos marines do.

I liked the way it was presented in the fantasy Hordes of Chaos book.
They made it a viable option due to the fact that if your general had a mark of Chaos then everything in your army could only have that mark or no mark.

 Crimson wrote:
Playing undivided is already the most powerful option, as you can mix and match marks and cult troops freely to get the best possible unit for each task. It is the mono-god armies that should get some sort of a buff to compensate for intentionally gimping themselves for flavour reasons.

And for those who don't plan to use marks? Undivided does not mean "Black Legion everywhere"

Then you don't use marks and you have a bigger warband.

Seriously, why do you expect to be rewarded by the dark gods for being wishy-washy and having commitment issues?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Then you don't use marks and you have a bigger warband.

Seriously, why do you expect to be rewarded by the dark gods for being wishy-washy and having commitment issues?

Considering that all the undivided primarchs ascended, there's plenty of undivided DP's (despite for some reason trying to kill them off) The fact that the Mark of Chaos Undivided is an actual mark before being removed..

Generally the Mark of the Chaos Undivided was one where you showed commitment to all four gods, trying to gain favor from them all, without being specifically after one god. Trying to use the gods for your purpose.

It was a far harder path since they as you've noticed they would be considered "Wishy-washy" but could still earn favor between them, in a perilous dance to try and gain power.

The Mark of Chaos Undivided is a glyph given to a follower of Chaos who devotes him/herself to all four of the Dark Gods. While the prayers of a mortal devoted to Chaos Undivided may be answered, they are unlikely to receive the gifts that come from worshiping just one god.

A follower of Chaos as a whole may also honour the lesser entities of the warp if they are more likely to help him.

Others view Chaos Undivided as a unified whole, the various powers as actually an aspect of one god. They may give their service to one god but are likely to never gain much favour with an individual power.

Finally, others seek to use Chaos as a means to get to their own ends. This is often risky and only two outcomes exist, daemonhood or damnation

CSM Chaos Icons should act as Teleport Homers for Daemons. Icons of a particular God should only work for Daemons of that God.

If there was inter-Codex synergy, as I hoped to see with Allies being written into the BRB, that'd be a perfect way to give character to Undivided armies, especially since it's basically Codex: Word Bearers.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Generally the Mark of the Chaos Undivided was one where you showed commitment to all four gods, trying to gain favor from them all, without being specifically after one god. Trying to use the gods for your purpose.

It was a far harder path since they as you've noticed they would be considered "Wishy-washy" but could still earn favor between them, in a perilous dance to try and gain power.

Actually not really it is one where you showed no particular favor or allegiance to any one deity. You aren't commited to all four gods, but committed to your own goals of power for your own betterment without making yourself beholden to any one of them. Thus, you are *not* marked, because you are independent. The undivided mark only came in to encourage more people to play forces that didn't always focus on using the elites of the big four as your troops all the time. You get marked because you stand up to be counted as a follower of one of the big four. Stay on your own and choose no allegiance and you are chaos undivided and get no mark. Simple really....Makes perfect sense for the chaos undivided mark to have gone away completely...

Skriker

Unmarked csm = chaos undivided.

Why would you expect an actual bonus for being undivided? Marks are something the gods bestow upon those who pledge themselves to them.

Why would you expect them to bestow anything on dudes who are basically neutral as far as chaos goes?

The Mark of Chaos Undivided is a glyph given to afollower of Chaos who devotes him/herself to all four of the Dark Gods. While the prayers of amortal devoted to Chaos Undivided may be answered, they are unlikely to receive the gifts that come from worshiping just one god.

A follower of Chaos as a whole may alsohonour the lesser entities of the warp if they are more likely to help him.

Others view Chaos Undivided as aunified whole, the various powers as actually anaspect of one god. They may give their service to one god but are likely to never gain much favour with an individual power.

Finally, others seek to use Chaos as a means to get to their own ends. This is often risky and only two outcomes exist,daemonhood or damnation

Reposting this for the last 2 people who ignored it.

Chaos undivided is a faction and as a faction is more than likely larger than any single one of the 4 gods factions, it's still in the fluff and is shown in book after book.

Lack of mark does not equal undivided, it equals renegades or plain old traitors, mark of chaos undivided equals undivided.

It was bad and lazy design that led to undivided being dropped in my opinion, why try to balance 6 factions when 5 will do.
Khorne, tzeench, slaanesh, nurgle, undivided, renegade

 Formosa wrote:
Reposting this for the last 2 people who ignored it.

Wow, really?

We didn't *IGNORE* it we completely *DISAGREED* with it. Reposting it again doesn't make your position magically more valid and agreed with than it was the first time.

You have your position and others in the thread don't agree with your "evidence. So acting like we ignored your post is stupid when we specifically responded to you and refuted your position with our own. If anyone is ignoring anything it is you ignoring the fact that people don't buy your position.

Skriker

All of the champsion of Chaos undivided were on the Squat homeworlds when the Tyranids showed up.

For what it's worth the 'undivided' chaos thing for me personally is a fudge and it does not make any sense. The chaos gods all hate each other, Tzeentch hates Nurgle, Slaanesh hates Khorne and Khorne hates everyone (with the possible exception of Nurgle). It is in the daemon rules. It was always the set-up in the early days. Worshipping chaos undivided is like claiming to follow several mutually exclusive religions all at once. It makes no sense at all.

I am just glad that the new CSM codex allows mono-god forces by the marks. The daemon codex allows groups who hate each other to work freely together, while the allies rules make it harder for Imperial groups to work effectively who share the same master and aims.

Personally I grew up with the gods separate and competing, the fluff still makes this plain and they then fly totally in the face of it with their army set up. For me it is illogical and bizarre.

Isengard wrote:
Personally I grew up with the gods separate and competing, the fluff still makes this plain and they then fly totally in the face of it with their army set up. For me it is illogical and bizarre.

Because of being in this from Rogue Trader and 3rd edition WHFB, I have a hard time playing all chaos powers in the same daemon army. I played one game where I had all 4 powers represented and it just didn't feel right to me and I've not done it since. Epic Space Marine is where they first came out with the "all the followers of all the chaos gods working together without a problem" thing. It is the same in whatever GW game I play. Usually these days I run Khorne/Nurgle or Tzeentch/Slaanesh as I just can't see even the sensation freaks of slaanesh cozying up to a plague bearer or great unclean one to "experience" them.

Yes I know that this limits my armies somewhat tactically, but given that my usual gaming paradigm is not a cut throat tourney army group, it doesn't hurt in the least.

Skriker

Isengard wrote:
For what it's worth the 'undivided' chaos thing for me personally is a fudge and it does not make any sense. The chaos gods all hate each other, Tzeentch hates Nurgle, Slaanesh hates Khorne and Khorne hates everyone (with the possible exception of Nurgle). It is in the daemon rules. It was always the set-up in the early days. Worshipping chaos undivided is like claiming to follow several mutually exclusive religions all at once. It makes no sense at all.

If you are worshiping Chaos Undivided you are not worshiping all the gods of Chaos (even then it would be possible. Look at old polytheistic religions, for example Hades was hated by the other Greek gods and even his own wife. This wouldn't hinder even a priest of Zeus to acknowledge him as the God of Death and even worshiping him as such.), you are worshiping Chaos itself, the Warp and his mutating influence.
The question is does this give such a huge advantage like the attention of a single god to justify a mark with its own benefit? Imho it does not. The only thing I could see as a reasonable benefit for undivided Marines would be fearless to substitute standard CSM as 'undivided Cult Marines' but as we can do this already I do not see the necessity to change the current system. Sure fearless goes with the icon but this has been the case with the marks in the old codex anyway so we are kinda used to it...

There are no armies of Chaos Undivided. There may be some devotees, but they do not produce armies.

40k is about armies.

The Word Bearers would like to differ.

The Word Bearers are not an army. They're a tiny warband. Even then, they're tiny warband is rife with worship of specific chaos powers. As as whole you may consider them not devoted to a power of chaos, but only because they worship each part. They do not worship Chaos as universal idea.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Then you don't use marks and you have a bigger warband.

Seriously, why do you expect to be rewarded by the dark gods for being wishy-washy and having commitment issues?

Because if GW ever wanted to have alfa legion different from iron warriors , they should be some sort of mechanic to represent that. If I go mecha with my IG , then it is a different army then my friends air cav and different from the infantry hvy list I play from time to time . Having one army different from another just because of paint seems stupid.

Then you get into requiring a Codex for every individual CSM group, much like their Loyalist versions, and that gak needs to stop, like, 12 years ago.

One book: Codex: Space Marines. Make it 200 pages long, with 5 pages given to each Loyalist Legion, with the bulk around "vanilla" SM and build-your-own-Chapter.

One book: Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Make it 200 pages long, with 5 pages given to each Traitor Legion, with the bulk around "vanilla" CSM and build-your-own-Warband.

Done! Now, bring on the Codices for the other factions, the xenos, etc etc.

 Psienesis wrote:
Then you get into requiring a Codex for every individual CSM group, much like their Loyalist versions, and that gak needs to stop, like, 12 years ago.

One book: Codex: Space Marines. Make it 200 pages long, with 5 pages given to each Loyalist Legion, with the bulk around "vanilla" SM and build-your-own-Chapter.

One book: Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Make it 200 pages long, with 5 pages given to each Traitor Legion, with the bulk around "vanilla" CSM and build-your-own-Warband.

Done! Now, bring on the Codices for the other factions, the xenos, etc etc.

Amen, brother!

Undivided (with a capital "U") no longer exists. At best units can be unaligned (lower case "u").

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The Word Bearers are not an army. They're a tiny warband. Even then, they're tiny warband is rife with worship of specific chaos powers. As as whole you may consider them not devoted to a power of chaos, but only because they worship each part. They do not worship Chaos as universal idea.

Hold on, aren't they sill operating as a legion? Even the Black Legion is more fractured then them.

I've never understood why unvidided/unaligned had to mean you can't get goodies too, or why the Cult Units had to be superior to the "unvidided/unaligned" units (certainly there should be something for currying favor with all 4 powers than just one?)