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 spectreoneone wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Str 8 Railguns?


I don't want to live on this planet any more.

What's wrong with that? Considering it's still useful for most light armor, and can still ID a good amount of stuff, it's not that bad. Additionally, if it were to be believed that XV88's will get a Skyfire option, S8 makes it a very potent AA weapon (considering that most Skyfire weapons are S7). It might also fall in line with the whole rail "cannon" rumor in the sense that railguns become S8, and rail "cannons" are S10. It also makes sense in the fact that Broadsides are smaller platforms, and would be equipped with something a little lighter hitting than a Hammerhead.

The Tau already have tons of options for dealing with light armor. The railgun is a unique aspect of the Tau army and to see it replaced by something weaker than the lascannons that imperials spam everywhere would be bollocks.

Why take Broadsides if deathrains would be much more agile and only slightly less survivable for 1 less strength and half the price?

And note that I'm speaking as someone who prefers Hammerheads to Broadsides. I'd rather the vehicle railgun get buffed(Along with the currently useless Ion Cannon) than lose the Broadside.

The problem as of now is that we don't know what the model cost will be to tell if its a nerf buff or stays the relative same. the rumor stated that the skyfire will be expensive and we already supposedly get an anti air flyer, seems redundant.

However if we get what seems like a salvo buff if you stand still, perhaps it will make up for it with weight of fire. the only problem i have no are landraiders which i already have problems with st 10 rails. what real weapon do we have to deal with it that actually have a chance. single shot rails off a hammerhead are pretty much hit or miss (also have to see what will happen completely to markerlights)

I think that reducing Strength and AP is a nerf no matter how you look at it. Really I would find it very upsetting as well because they want the Hammerhead to see more table time, but instead of making it a better tank they make the competing unit worse.

Overall the entire rumor list looked like nerfs to me. Seriously nerfing Kroot and Stealth suits?

And expensive S10 Ap1 skyfire railguns isn't broken at all if priced accordingly. That's like saying that S10 AP1 railguns are broken now because they always glance (or even pen) nearly every transport in the game. But that's how it should be. Flyers offer amazing mobility and fire support, but are inherently weak to ground based AA fire. Somehow in 40K people forgot to establish air defenses and flyers are nearly invincible flying tanks, which is absurd. It's not the Broadside's fault that the system is messed up.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I think that reducing Strength and AP is a nerf no matter how you look at it.

S9 AP2 Heavy 6 Twin-Linked

st 9? also chances are they will lower the range to match. probably 48"

I was mostly proving to him that just because the AP and S goes down, doesn't mean it is a nerf. I have nothing to support that profile.

Well I was assuming it was still a single shot, since they didn't mention that changing.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Well I was assuming it was still a single shot, since they didn't mention that changing.

Never assume or judge nerf/buff until you have the codex in hand.

And then when I have the codex in hand, you'll say to wait a few months to see what the meta shows. I'll stick to complaining now, thank you.

Seriously though, I'm commenting on a rumor that's posted in the rumor section. What else should we do here? The post mentioned only that the Railgun was reduced in S by 2. So I guess it'll be a S8 AP1 Heavy1 weapon with probably the same range since the rumor didn't mention any other stat changes. Dropping any weapon by -2S is a nerf.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
And then when I have the codex in hand, you'll say to wait a few months to see what the meta shows. I'll stick to complaining now, thank you.

Seriously though, I'm commenting on a rumor that's posted in the rumor section. What else should we do here? The post mentioned only that the Railgun was reduced in S by 2. So I guess it'll be a S8 AP1 Heavy1 weapon with probably the same range since the rumor didn't mention any other stat changes. Dropping any weapon by -2S is a nerf.

If you take it out of context, then yes, I agree, dropping the S of anything by 2 is a nerf. If you take it in context with all of the proposed updates, it's not necessarily a nerf of the overall unit, but a role shift as I stated. I hate to bring this up, but you also have to look at it in terms of driving sales, as well. If you give the Broadsides a different role than the Railhead, then you can drive the sales of both kits in a positive direction. From a sales standpoint, it's better to have a wide range of highly specialized units than a small range of multi-purpose units, since you can potentially move more product with the former.

Of course, in the end, this is all speculation until the Codexes are in our hands, and our local metas determine how it all pans out.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
And then when I have the codex in hand, you'll say to wait a few months to see what the meta shows.

Wait, so I'll ask you to be reasonable and use facts and empirical data both before and after the codex is released? I am a bastard!

Seriously though, I'm commenting on a rumor that's posted in the rumor section. What else should we do here?

Sit quietly and contemplate life, the universe, everything?

The post mentioned only that the Railgun was reduced in S by 2. So I guess it'll be a S8 AP1 Heavy1 weapon with probably the same range since the rumor didn't mention any other stat changes. Dropping any weapon by -2S is a nerf.

If that is the only change, then sure, it will be a nerf.

 spectreoneone wrote:
If you take it out of context, then yes, I agree, dropping the S of anything by 2 is a nerf. If you take it in context with all of the proposed updates, it's not necessarily a nerf of the overall unit, but a role shift as I stated. I hate to bring this up, but you also have to look at it in terms of driving sales, as well. If you give the Broadsides a different role than the Railhead, then you can drive the sales of both kits in a positive direction. From a sales standpoint, it's better to have a wide range of highly specialized units than a small range of multi-purpose units, since you can potentially move more product with the former.

Of course, in the end, this is all speculation until the Codexes are in our hands, and our local metas determine how it all pans out.

This is pretty much what I've been reading into the various rumors. I'm assuming some things will get their mechanics changed - some for the worse, some for the better. I'm also assuming that things we rely on heavily at the moment - Broadsides, Crisis Suits - will be adjusted in ways that make the way we currently use them less optimal or completely unworkable. I also believe - based on how the existing three 6th ed codexes have turned out - that those units will likely have a new role they're optimized for, and that we'll have other options to fill in for what we used to use them for.

Overall, yeah - Broadsides will probably not remain the ultimate sit behind an Aegis and gut anything with an AV from 72" away unit once we get a new codex. I'm ok with that, because they'll still likely have a role they're good at, and we'll likely be able to do something more interesting from a tactical point of view than gunline up and pray.

I don't see how taking it S8 would change the roll at all, other than limiting it's ability to take down high armor vehicles. Perhaps forcing it to take the skyfire upgrade so it can fire at light armor and flyers would change the roll a bit, but still seems silly to me. Afterall, they didn't nerf Missile launchers just so they could get the Flakk upgrade.

And it's rubbish to say that you can't form an opinion based on what's presented. Unless you have NEVER under any circumstances read a summary on a book or seen a movie trailer and said to yourself "I don't think I would like that" then you're no less guilty. I'm taking what's presented and offering an opinion and personal speculation. It's entirely unreasonable to ask me otherwise.

But if the the Broadside option is now cheaper with those St8 AP2 railguns it seems to be an acceptable nerf. I have not taken a Hammerhead in years....its redundant when you are rolling 3 squads Broadsides and all you lose is the large pie plate. Even dropping the range to 60" doesnt seem to me to be too bad as long as the overall price for each suit is dropped.

 spectreoneone wrote:


If you take it out of context, then yes, I agree, dropping the S of anything by 2 is a nerf. If you take it in context with all of the proposed updates, it's not necessarily a nerf of the overall unit, but a role shift as I stated.

If you shift the role of a Heavy Support unit to something amply fulfilled by Elite and Fast Attack Units, it's a nerf.

The rumors look interesting. I'll be curious to see just how big of a release this will be with new models added. Something tells me that the model release will be small given the release date isn't that far from the daemons release. It would be surprising to see a lot of new figs along with this release. I do, however, like the speed in which releases are happening though. 4 codexes already in a new edition and it isn't a year old yet. Hopefully they keep that pace and get all races updated in this edition so all armies start from the same place once a new edition hits in the future. One can hope.

Supposedly Vetock is the author for Tau.

My level of excitement for the new Tau just dropped by half.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice....

RogueRegault wrote:

 spectreoneone wrote:

If you take it out of context, then yes, I agree, dropping the S of anything by 2 is a nerf. If you take it in context with all of the proposed updates, it's not necessarily a nerf of the overall unit, but a role shift as I stated.

If you shift the role of a Heavy Support unit to something amply fulfilled by Elite and Fast Attack Units, it's a nerf.

Not really. It's a new role, period. The fact that it's Heavy Support doesn't mean it has to be anti-armor. Not to mention our Elite and FA slots aren't exactly brimming with S8 long range shots to begin with.

Veskrashen wrote:
This is pretty much what I've been reading into the various rumors. I'm assuming some things will get their mechanics changed - some for the worse, some for the better. I'm also assuming that things we rely on heavily at the moment - Broadsides, Crisis Suits - will be adjusted in ways that make the way we currently use them less optimal or completely unworkable. I also believe - based on how the existing three 6th ed codexes have turned out - that those units will likely have a new role they're optimized for, and that we'll have other options to fill in for what we used to use them for.

Overall, yeah - Broadsides will probably not remain the ultimate sit behind an Aegis and gut anything with an AV from 72" away unit once we get a new codex. I'm ok with that, because they'll still likely have a role they're good at, and we'll likely be able to do something more interesting from a tactical point of view than gunline up and pray.

This. I really think that they need to freshen up the Tau playstyle. Of course, you'll have the folks that will complain about a shake-up of their valued units (if this pans out, of course). The whole "OMG the sky is falling" schtick is getting really old, really quickly. Much of the doomsaying is being based upon a couple of unconfirmed rumors that are being taken completely out of context of the entire codex.

If this rumored change to the Broads is in fact true, we still don't know how it will fit in with the rest of the Codex. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with discussing the rumors, it just gets old hearing about this "nerf" or that "cheese." The point is, don't freak out about something that's unconfirmed, and out of context. Savageconvoy, nobody is saying don't form an opinion. I know I'm personally saying don't freak out about something that's not fully in context. Seeing a movie prefiew usually provides context, as does a book summary; a rumor saying that XV88's will now have S8 rails with a skyfire option is out of context, because it doesn't give any hint as to why it's getting the reduction in weapon strength. For all we know, they will cost 10 points less, have BS4, with TL S8 AP1 72" range rails with a 20 point skyfire upgrade and relentless. Is that a nerf? I don't think so. Sure, it can't pop the heaviest tanks out there, but that's why you take a Railhead now, or even the new rumored uber-suit. Broadsides end up being your anti-light armor/flyer ground units, and they force you to play in a different way, which isn't the end of the earth, tbh.

It's not like you could really call there being any 'good' codex writers anymore. Even the best ones and most balanced writers of the past are just subsumed into the mess that is the modern GW army/codex books.

Veskrashen wrote:

RogueRegault wrote:

 spectreoneone wrote:

If you take it out of context, then yes, I agree, dropping the S of anything by 2 is a nerf. If you take it in context with all of the proposed updates, it's not necessarily a nerf of the overall unit, but a role shift as I stated.

If you shift the role of a Heavy Support unit to something amply fulfilled by Elite and Fast Attack Units, it's a nerf.

Not really. It's a new role, period. The fact that it's Heavy Support doesn't mean it has to be anti-armor. Not to mention our Elite and FA slots aren't exactly brimming with S8 long range shots to begin with.

Yup. LR Punisher, anybody? Definitely not anti-armor. I also am wondering where the ample anti-flyer units are for Tau in the Elite and FA slots (or any slot, for that matter). Also, our best light anti armor in those slots are FBs with a 12" range and MPs with a 36" range. There is nothing else in the army comparable to a S8 with a long range or the possibility of skyfire at the moment. A S8 railgun is creating an entirely new role for a unit of the Tau army to fill; it will probably have a range between 36-72", and will potentiall be a skyfire weapon. There is nothing else in the Tau inventory like it, thus, new role: anti-air.

Something I did just think of, though, maybe they will do it like the Comtemptor Mortis Dreads: gains skyfire if it remains stationary, but perhaps as a piece of wargear (new repurposed A.S.S.?).

I thought Cruddance was penning the Tau dex. He hasn't written a dex for a while right?

@spectreoneone The second comment was more directed to pretre. I understand a lot is left up in the air, but rumors do give a glimpse of what's coming. I myself have a majority of broadsides and suits. Now the army dynamic will change and I understand that. It's an old codex and much work needed to be done. I understand that the better units needed a lot of work too, but it just seems like the wrong approach to me.

The only information we have to go off of is that the Broadside got a reduction in S from it's main gun and an expensive upgrade to give it skyfire. They fundamentally changed the role of anti-tank unit to be anti-light armor. Why not give the Hammerhead a single shot S10 AP1 railgun with skyfire? Has any army been given less access to lascannons or multimelta? Because that's what this would be to Tau. On an army that already had limited availability of firepower, it doesn't seem like a good message.

I understand that there is a lot we aren't seeing, and I'm eagerly awaiting. Though part of me honestly wishes that the broadsides get S8 railguns, because I have a few bets to collect .

@savageconvoy - I would agree with your assessment that Tau were getting a lot of their firepower taken away if Broadsides got S8 railguns... if I didn't think there were some serious, fundamental shifts in Tau armament in the works with this codex.

To expand, you're right - at the moment Tau are limited to S10 railguns in Heavy Support slots or Fusion on suits as viable solutions to AV13/14. In this context, dropping Broadside railguns to S8 leaves only Hammerheads as viable counters to AV13/14 armor.

That said... I feel there's more on the way for Tau. For one thing, I can't imagine that GW is totally ignorant of how narrow our options are for countering AV13/14. We've also heard a variety of rumors hinting at new weapons for Crisis suits - to include ion style guns, or ion cannons that can be overloaded, etc etc etc. I could easily envision a scenario wherein XV8s or some non-HS vehicles get a longer range melta option, or S8 railguns get the Lance special rule, or we get some variant of a Haywire gun. There's any number of ways that GW could address the need to counter AV13/14 at range without requiring S10 72" railguns to accomplish that goal. Any number of them could fundamentally change the style of play from "grab a buttload of XV88s, park them behind an Aegis or in a Bastion, and gut vehicles". It could allow for far more mobile, fluid, or reactive playstyles that are simply not an option with the current codex - precisely because we are so limited options-wise when it comes to dealing with mid-high AV vehicles.

Natfka from Faeit212 wrote:Please remember that these are rumors. This was in response to the post yesterday found here.
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/03/tau-model-pics-from-gamesday.html

via an anonymous source from the Faeit 212 inbox
Crisis Suits
The new suits are very similar to those old ones.

The heads don't have a neck and are now lowered into the torso about 25% of the head is below shoulder level.

The arms are a bit shorter too.

Otherwise that's a decent representation of the crisis suits.

It's always possible that the skyfire upgrade itself is what lowers the strength.

Neko over at Warseer General Discussion wrote:I've not been told anything about our alien allies.
I have just been told that the new interesting tidbits with regards to the Broadsides however:
- The railguns are now different from the vehicle mounted version. Think of these as light railguns.
- The Broadsides now have sniper style pose.
- Broadsides are to cost the same amount as their Forgeworld counterparts
(...)
They currently have less ammo choice (as in they don't have an ammo choice). The new Broadside weapon is a different weapon.

Anonymous source over at Faeit212 wrote:Crisis Suits

The new suits are very similar to those old ones.
The heads don't have a neck and are now lowered into the torso about 25% of the head is below shoulder level.
The arms are a bit shorter too.
Otherwise that's a decent representation of the crisis suits.

Seem to be referring to this old test sculpt:

Hooved suits? Yes please.

 Rented Tritium wrote:
Hooved suits? Yes please.

Well, it's not earthshattering new:

I really hope they get rid of those potato suits.

more shadow sun type suits please

but i highly doubt this will happen