Materia_Master wrote:

Heck, the hardest thing to kill was always his 3 Vendettas he flys around, and I really think skyfire is going to fix that.

 Prodigalson wrote:
How many points of hammerheads does it take to kill a landraider?

 Rented Tritium wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
Well, I have been looking through the codex quiet a bit lately.

Yup, I am going to once again fall to many many lists that are played locally. Double landraiders and IG parking lots are going to run us over....

We now have the one single shot rail gun on the HH
One strength 9 shot AP2 from overcharging.
And still our one melta....

I have been having a really hard time with 4 broadsides against many people going to a IG parking lot and having a dark angel compliment to give the russes a 4+ invuln and a 40 man blob squad fearless already. Only having 1-2 strength 10 shots and 1-2 strength 9 shots in a 2k list is really going to do a lot of harm to me. Going from a tourney winning to a tourney showing player....

You're hyperfocusing on individual tools. Think about it this way, the missiles being spread out across more units means you're freeing up crisis hardpoints for more fusion than you had before. The fusion range is also getting increased.

With roles switching around, you should be looking at crisis suits to handle a bit of your melta.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Materia_Master wrote:

Heck, the hardest thing to kill was always his 3 Vendettas he flys around, and I really think skyfire is going to fix that.

Bah, it wouldn't. The Broadside has a ~12% percent chance to instagib a Vendetta with his heavy rail rifle. As a comparison: a Vendetta has a ~37% chance to instagib another Vendetta. And Ionheads seriously compete for that HS slot.

 Materia_Master wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Materia_Master wrote:

Heck, the hardest thing to kill was always his 3 Vendettas he flys around, and I really think skyfire is going to fix that.

Bah, it wouldn't. The Broadside has a ~12% percent chance to instagib a Vendetta with his heavy rail rifle. As a comparison: a Vendetta has a ~37% chance to instagib another Vendetta. And Ionheads seriously compete for that HS slot.

Great 37% chance for the Vendetta. Too bad tau don't get Vendettas. I'm not concerning myself with what other armies have for Anti-Air.
What was the chance of a S10 AP1 4th edition broadside to shoot down a Vendetta in 6e? What, roughly 12.45% chance to pen the armor?
What is the chance of a S8 AP1 6th edition broadside to shoot down a Vendetta in 6e? What, roughly 24.75% chance to pen the armor?

How is that not an improvement?

 Kingsley wrote:
I'm always kind of surprised to see people saying that this codex will have trouble with Marine control. It seems to me that the army has become much more effective against Marines. Infantry shooting (the primary method of dealing with most infantry) has become much better, and there are many appealing AP3/2/1 options-- the new Rail Rifles, the Riptide's ion accelerator (or just the Rending attack from the heavy burst cannon), Ion Cannons with their new overcharge ability, Plasma Rifles on battlesuits (at 12" range the Riptide can potentially fire a S8 AP2 large blast and 4 twin-linked strength 6 ap 2 shots in one turn!)

Further, the ability of Pathfinders to allow other units to outright ignore cover greatly increases the ability of the Tau Empire to maximize the effect of their low AP weapons. All in all it seems like a Tau army with the right equipment will be extremely effective against MEQs and even TEQs.

 Materia_Master wrote:

Too bad tau don't get Vendettas.

 Materia_Master wrote:

 Prodigalson wrote:
How many points of hammerheads does it take to kill a landraider?

Lets ask Mr. Owl!

 Akaraut wrote:
I'm really looking forward to the new stuff. As my list is focused on crisis suits (no vehicles apart from tetras) It's going to be a though decision for me for what gun to put on riptides, ion or railgun to provide the new rarer s10 shots.

The new access to skyfire is VERY welcome, as the last tourny i went to (civil war) i faced flyers in all three games and some people at my flgs use flyers too. Shame about the broadsides, but i'll still use four they are still great, it just means i'll have to put more variety in to my crisis suits.

So i very much look forward to the challenge and the fun of having to remake my list.

What i'm looking forward to see if i can do with my list, is to have a HQ+bodyguard fireknife unit , a HQ+bodyguard dakka unit (burst cannons + other high rate of fire weapon), some type of fusion suit unit, two riptides with either ions or railguns, three squads of eight fws (or more suits as troops if that option is there through a sc), some tetras (or pathfinders if they don't have to use a devilfish) and two squads of two broadsides. The trouble with that is if it'll fit in to 2000 points!

So bring on the new codex, buffs or nerfs, it's looking like i'm really going to enjoy this new edition.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 Materia_Master wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:


yea, I have done the math on that one:

2 broadside teams and I am using rounded numbers to get one hit.

old broadsides: Against armor 12 flying.
to hit: 66%
to pen (66%) to make it 44%
to explode (50%) to make it 22%

Old broadsides: against ground AV14
to hit: 150%
to pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explode (50%) to make it 25%

New broadside with skyfire against AV12 flying
to hit: 150%
To pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explosde (50%) to make it 25%

New broadsides against ground AV14
To hit: 150%
to Pen: Impossible
To explode: Impossible
]

So for the people who say broadsides are better: are telling me that you are willing to have this trade off of 3% to destroy a flyer with two broadsides to 5 points and the innability to now destroy AV14?

Look at the math, it is there. And it is very sad....

Uhhh... check your math again? I don't want to get into a math-war against you and clog up the thread, and i'm not going to argue the new broadsides vs a 14armor tank now... it can't pen. I understand, but...

"old broadsides: Against armor 12 flying.
to hit: 66%
to pen (66%) to make it 44%
to explode (50%) to make it 22%"

How does a snapshot with a reroll for a snapshot make 66% chance to hit? you have a 16.6% chance to hit the first roll, and the same 16.66% percent to hit on the reroll. 66% chance to hit that does not make. Your math is wrong and painting an innacurate picture of how a non-skyfire broadside could shoot down a flyer.

Whatever, last post I'm doing about math. I'm not clogging up this thread. I'm not saying "I'm right, your wrong, end conversation", If you make a good counterpoint, Im just not gonna fight it.

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

Pathfinders are interesting.
Now the funny bits, the drones:
Position relay: Whilst the bearer is within 6'' of a board edge, any friendly unit from Codex: Tau Empire that arrives from reserve using the Outflank special rule, can choose to move on from that board edge (even if it your, or your opponent's board edge). Outflanking units that do not choose to arrive from that board edge arrive using the Outflank special rule.

Edit: Oh yes, markerlights. Here's how they work:
Each hit on a target adds a markerlight "token". Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots that at a target that has one or more markerligt counters, it can declare it is using one or more of the markerlight counters. A unit may combine any number of markerlight abilities providing that there are enough counters:
- Pinpoint (1+ markerlights) - All models firing at the target as part of this shooting attack gain a bonus to their BS for the duration of the shooting attack.. The size of this bonus is equal to the number of markerlight counters expended on this ability. Pinpoint can increase the BS of Snap Shots and overwatch.
- Scour: (2 markerlights) all weapons fired at the target as part of this shooting attack gain the ignore cover special rule.
- Seeker (1+ markerlight) - For each markerlight spent on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile (if it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire. A seeker missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight
- Must be fire at the same target as the vehicle's other weapons
- IS resolved at BS 5
- Has the Ignore Cover special rule
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at it's full BS
- Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer can fire each turn.

jazzpaintball wrote:

Old broadsides: against ground AV14
to hit: 150%
to pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explode (50%) to make it 25%

New broadside with skyfire against AV12 flying
to hit: 150%
To pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explosde (50%) to make it 25%

New broadsides against ground AV14
To hit: 150%
to Pen: Impossible
To explode: Impossible
]

So for the people who say broadsides are better: are telling me that you are willing to have this trade off of 3% to destroy a flyer with two broadsides to 5 points and the innability to now destroy AV14?

Look at the math, it is there. And it is very sad....

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 SabrX wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:
Some more info on the pathfinders would be nice though.

+1

A lot of competitive Tau players might switch over from Tetras to Pathfinders depending on Pathfinders' point cost, markerlight effectiveness, survivability, and existence of Targeting Array and Target Lock (or split fire option) for vehicles.

Pathfinders are interesting.
They start with 4 and go up to 10. They may include a Recon Drone, Grav-inhibitor Drone or Pulse Accelerator Drone.
Up to 3 models may exchange their pulse carbine and markerlight for one of the following: Ion Rifle, Rail Rifle.
The unit may take EMP grenades.
One pathfinder can be upgraded to Pathfinder Shas'ui and this one may take a blacksun filter, may take up to 2 drones from the Drones List
The entire unit may take the Bonding Knife special rule and may take a Devilfish as a Dedicated Transport.

They are Scouts and have Supporting fire.

Now the funny bits, the drones:
Recon Drone: Burst cannon, homing beacon, positional relay
Beacon: Friendly units arriving by Deep Strike do not scatter as long as the first model is placed within 6'' of a model with homing beacon
Position relay: Whilst the bearer is within 6'' of a board edge, any friendly unit from Codex: Tau Empire that arrives from reserve using the Outflank special rule, can choose to move on from that board edge (even if it your, or your opponent's board edge). Outflanking units that do not choose to arrive from that board edge arrive using the Outflank special rule.
Grav drone: gravity wave projector - At the start of the enemy assault phase, nominate an enemy unit within 12'' and then roll a D3. If during that Assault phase, the nominated unit attempts to assault the Grav-inhibitor drone, or its unit, reduce that unit's assault move by the result of the D3 (minimum of 0)
Pulse: pulse accelerator - All pulse weapons in a unit that contains at least one pulse accelerator increase their maximum range by 6''.

See that minus D3 ''? Now add Darkstrider to the unit. With his Fighting Retreat rule, Darkstrider, and his unit, can consolidate D6'' in any direction immediately after firing Overwatch (before rolls for charge range are made). So in a best case scenario, that unit that was about to charge your pathfinders, is "pushed" 9'' and is overwatched.

(not writting stats and points as I don't know if it would be pyushing my luck or breaking rules)

Edit: Oh yes, markerlights. Here's how they work:
Each hit on a target adds a markerlight "token". Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots that at a target that has one or more markerligt counters, it can declare it is using one or more of the markerlight counters. A unit may combine any number of markerlight abilities providing that there are enough counters:
- Pinpoint (1+ markerlights) - All models firing at the target as part of this shooting attack gain a bonus to their BS for the duration of the shooting attack.. The size of this bonus is equal to the number of markerlight counters expended on this ability. Pinpoint can increase the BS of Snap Shots and overwatch.
- Scour: (2 markerlights) all weapons fired at the target as part of this shooting attack gain the ignore cover special rule.
- Seeker (1+ markerlight) - For each markerlight spent on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile (if it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire. A seeker missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight
- Must be fire at the same target as the vehicle's other weapons
- IS resolved at BS 5
- Has the Ignore Cover special rule
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at it's full BS
- Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer can fire each turn.

 Rented Tritium wrote:
You cannot take 9 broadsides anymore. I'm sorry but deal with it.

 BlueRift wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:

Old broadsides: against ground AV14
to hit: 150%
to pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explode (50%) to make it 25%

New broadside with skyfire against AV12 flying
to hit: 150%
To pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explosde (50%) to make it 25%

New broadsides against ground AV14
To hit: 150%
to Pen: Impossible
To explode: Impossible
]

So for the people who say broadsides are better: are telling me that you are willing to have this trade off of 3% to destroy a flyer with two broadsides to 5 points and the innability to now destroy AV14?

Look at the math, it is there. And it is very sad....

That math is sad because it's very very wrong. You can't have a 150% chance of hitting. You have a 75% chance for broadsides hitting w/o a TA.

jazzpaintball wrote:

I know not everyone has gotten to see the new codex yet, but I want you to know: the XV104 (Riptide) has the ability to use its Nova reactor on a 3+ to give it a Strength 9 shot, not a Strength 10 shot. It is the only Strength 9 shot we will have in our codex and the only strength 10 shot we have is on the HH.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 BlueRift wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:

Old broadsides: against ground AV14
to hit: 150%
to pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explode (50%) to make it 25%

New broadside with skyfire against AV12 flying
to hit: 150%
To pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explosde (50%) to make it 25%

New broadsides against ground AV14
To hit: 150%
to Pen: Impossible
To explode: Impossible
]

So for the people who say broadsides are better: are telling me that you are willing to have this trade off of 3% to destroy a flyer with two broadsides to 5 points and the innability to now destroy AV14?

Look at the math, it is there. And it is very sad....

That math is sad because it's very very wrong. You can't have a 150% chance of hitting. You have a 75% chance for broadsides hitting w/o a TA.

Again, at the top I said this is with a 2 suit XV88 team.

If each suit has a 75% chance of hitting, then two suits would double it to 1.5 hits, or 150% chance of hit.

Now to the other guy, I did mess up a bit with the skyfire percentages. it is more around 13% of explosion instead of the said 22%. I am sorry, I messed up.

However, I still do not think even a 12%, or even a 25% higher chance (if you consider it nearly impossible to hit flyers currently), to explode flyers is worth a trade to not even be able to touch AV14.

jazzpaintball wrote:

 BlueRift wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:

Old broadsides: against ground AV14
to hit: 150%
to pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explode (50%) to make it 25%

New broadside with skyfire against AV12 flying
to hit: 150%
To pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explosde (50%) to make it 25%

New broadsides against ground AV14
To hit: 150%
to Pen: Impossible
To explode: Impossible
]

So for the people who say broadsides are better: are telling me that you are willing to have this trade off of 3% to destroy a flyer with two broadsides to 5 points and the innability to now destroy AV14?

Look at the math, it is there. And it is very sad....

That math is sad because it's very very wrong. You can't have a 150% chance of hitting. You have a 75% chance for broadsides hitting w/o a TA.

Again, at the top I said this is with a 2 suit XV88 team.

If each suit has a 75% chance of hitting, then two suits would double it to 1.5 hits, or 150% chance of hit.

 Materia_Master wrote:

but glances do two things: they disrupt the enemy by denying movement or destroying weaponry...

 Materia_Master wrote:


Whoa now... we said that their new Heavy Rail Rifle can't "pen" AV14...

But don't sell it short, it can still glance. It's not a great percent (once you hit, you still only have 16.6%), but glances do two things: they disrupt the enemy by denying movement or destroying weaponry... Not only that, but glancing is deadlier than ever in 6e with the inclusion of Hull Points...

Don't get me wrong, it's not very good against AV14... it did infact get a large nerf in that respect, but glances should not be discounted as "not even be able to touch".

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:

 BlueRift wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:

Old broadsides: against ground AV14
to hit: 150%
to pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explode (50%) to make it 25%

New broadside with skyfire against AV12 flying
to hit: 150%
To pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explosde (50%) to make it 25%

New broadsides against ground AV14
To hit: 150%
to Pen: Impossible
To explode: Impossible
]

So for the people who say broadsides are better: are telling me that you are willing to have this trade off of 3% to destroy a flyer with two broadsides to 5 points and the innability to now destroy AV14?

Look at the math, it is there. And it is very sad....

That math is sad because it's very very wrong. You can't have a 150% chance of hitting. You have a 75% chance for broadsides hitting w/o a TA.

Again, at the top I said this is with a 2 suit XV88 team.

If each suit has a 75% chance of hitting, then two suits would double it to 1.5 hits, or 150% chance of hit.

I'm not sure if it works like that. In fact, I'm pretty sure you do not add percentages.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Do the Broadsides come in units of up to four now?

jazzpaintball wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:

 BlueRift wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:

Old broadsides: against ground AV14
to hit: 150%
to pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explode (50%) to make it 25%

New broadside with skyfire against AV12 flying
to hit: 150%
To pen (33%) to make it 50%
to explosde (50%) to make it 25%

New broadsides against ground AV14
To hit: 150%
to Pen: Impossible
To explode: Impossible
]

So for the people who say broadsides are better: are telling me that you are willing to have this trade off of 3% to destroy a flyer with two broadsides to 5 points and the innability to now destroy AV14?

Look at the math, it is there. And it is very sad....

That math is sad because it's very very wrong. You can't have a 150% chance of hitting. You have a 75% chance for broadsides hitting w/o a TA.

Again, at the top I said this is with a 2 suit XV88 team.

If each suit has a 75% chance of hitting, then two suits would double it to 1.5 hits, or 150% chance of hit.

I'm not sure if it works like that. In fact, I'm pretty sure you do not add percentages.

with the exception of the skyfire (which I did screw up) I did not add percentages, I multiplied them.

If you have a two man team with each having a 75% chance of hitting, it is a 150% chance of the team hitting.

75% becomes .75
two people = 2 chances of 75%

2 * .75 = 1.5
1.5 back to percentages = 150% of that team hitting.

jazzpaintball wrote:

75% becomes .75
two people = 2 chances of 75%

2 * .75 = 1.5
1.5 back to percentages = 150% of that team hitting.