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Jazz is technically right, guys. It's just not the common way to write out mathhammer.

jazzpaintball wrote:
with the exception of the skyfire (which I did screw up) I did not add percentages, I multiplied them.

If you have a two man team with each having a 75% chance of hitting, it is a 150% chance of the team hitting.

75% becomes .75
two people = 2 chances of 75%

2 * .75 = 1.5
1.5 back to percentages = 150% of that team hitting.

That's not how percents work in this context...you can't have a 150% chance to hit. It's impossible. Maximum is 100%. That's like saying 110% of the students passed a test. How do you have more students pass the test than are in the class?

 YotsubaSnake wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
with the exception of the skyfire (which I did screw up) I did not add percentages, I multiplied them.

If you have a two man team with each having a 75% chance of hitting, it is a 150% chance of the team hitting.

75% becomes .75
two people = 2 chances of 75%

2 * .75 = 1.5
1.5 back to percentages = 150% of that team hitting.

That's not how percents work in this context...you can't have a 150% chance to hit. It's impossible. Maximum is 100%. That's like saying 110% of the students passed a test. How do you have more students pass the test than are in the class?

150% of a hit is 1.5 hits. He's just expressing 1.5 average hits, just like we do in mathhammer all the time. The error he made was using a percentage to express it, which is accurate but confusing.

uberjoras wrote:

As to your hammerhead question, hammerheads can't even kill rhinos. Ask any tau player, hammerheads have a magnetic field that manipulates the plastic dice as they roll, causing any "to-hit" roll made by them to come up as a 1.

It's true. I think my Railheads have killed like 1 vehicle in total over last 3 years.

DERP.

Pie's on my face now.
Look at this fool, shouting mixtures of 5e rules and 6e rules. Don't know what I was thinking.

I shall dress in burlap sack and sit in ashes for atonement.

Oh that makes more sense. If its 1.5 average hits then its more believable.

I think broadsides are like like 60% times better (pulled out of my ...) at shooting flying vehicles than their former selves.

(since I don't have the time for some math-hammering I used: http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php )

I find it hilarious that people are saying that the Hammerhead will be great at anti-tank, when nobody took Hammerheads for anything but the submunition. Seriously, just about every advice thread for Tau from late 5th and through 6th will have experienced Tau players saying that the Hammerhead is unreliable at anti-tank because it's a single shot weapon and you can only max out three of them per army, which is why the Broadside was taken.

Now just about nothing changes on the hammerhead except points, and people are trying to say it's great at it. I'm having a hard time understanding this. This is honestly the same issue if Mutilators got updated to be about 5 points cheaper and people trying to sell them off as an excellent assault unit.

 Materia_Master wrote:

How does a snapshot with a reroll for a snapshot make 66% chance to hit? you have a 16.6% chance to hit the first roll, and the same 16.66% percent to hit on the reroll. 66% chance to hit that does not make.

I think he was trying to say 2 attacks which gets you .66 hits (better listed as # of hits than % chance to hit) - this also explains the "150%". But the math is still a bit off. You don't gain the full 16.66% chance on your second attack - it's dependent on the first missing.

(1/6)+(5/6)*(1/6) = (11/36) = 30.6% chance to hit
(3/6)+(3/6)*(3/6) = (27/36) = 75% chance to hit

Full math on removing a hull point or destroying, single shot:


Handwavy, for flyers you're almost doubling chance to explode AV10, increasing chance to explode AV11 by 50%, and barely increasing chance to explode AV12. For stripping hull points, the new Skyfire Broadsides are vastly superior.

Edit: some info duplicated in time I took to post, and I didn't address AV14 ground at all. That's another conversation I'm not sure the answer of. I like the new Broadsides if the codex has enough anti-AV14 beyond them.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

 YotsubaSnake wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
with the exception of the skyfire (which I did screw up) I did not add percentages, I multiplied them.

If you have a two man team with each having a 75% chance of hitting, it is a 150% chance of the team hitting.

75% becomes .75
two people = 2 chances of 75%

2 * .75 = 1.5
1.5 back to percentages = 150% of that team hitting.

That's not how percents work in this context...you can't have a 150% chance to hit. It's impossible. Maximum is 100%. That's like saying 110% of the students passed a test. How do you have more students pass the test than are in the class?

150% of a hit is 1.5 hits. He's just expressing 1.5 average hits, just like we do in mathhammer all the time. The error he made was using a percentage to express it, which is accurate but confusing.

Yeah, go back and do expected hits. It is silly and wrong otherwise.

And again I'd say that "glancing to death" is fairly poor strategy on a three shot unit that is fairly expensive. Glancing to death is last resort "I have a lot of bolter shots, lets see what sticks" mentality that should not be applied to a Heavy Support unit. Something like the Forgefiend with 8 S8 shots, which can re-roll to penetrate dice would be far more suited for that kind of task.

Rented Tritium wrote:

 YotsubaSnake wrote:

jazzpaintball wrote:
with the exception of the skyfire (which I did screw up) I did not add percentages, I multiplied them.

If you have a two man team with each having a 75% chance of hitting, it is a 150% chance of the team hitting.

75% becomes .75
two people = 2 chances of 75%

2 * .75 = 1.5
1.5 back to percentages = 150% of that team hitting.

That's not how percents work in this context...you can't have a 150% chance to hit. It's impossible. Maximum is 100%. That's like saying 110% of the students passed a test. How do you have more students pass the test than are in the class?

150% of a hit is 1.5 hits. He's just expressing 1.5 average hits, just like we do in mathhammer all the time. The error he made was using a percentage to express it, which is accurate but confusing.

If a team fires three times, averages 1.5 hits. That's a 50% chance your shot will hit and a 7/8 chance that something WILL hit. This turns into somewhere around a 87% chance (rough math) that the TEAM will hit at least one shot. There is a slight chance, even with three twinlinked weapons that nothing will hit. Very slim but still possible.

If anyone wants to debate this further with me, please send me a PM.

Backfire wrote:

uberjoras wrote:

As to your hammerhead question, hammerheads can't even kill rhinos. Ask any tau player, hammerheads have a magnetic field that manipulates the plastic dice as they roll, causing any "to-hit" roll made by them to come up as a 1.

It's true. I think my Railheads have killed like 1 vehicle in total over last 3 years.

QFT. I only took railheads for the pie plate. After the first few outings of impotent rail weaponry, got MUCH more mileage out of a large blast than out of a supposed 66% chance to hit

with two guns being fired at BS1 (due to flyer) you hit on 6's.

Against AV12

1 in 6 chance. 2 dice mean double chances to 33% chance.

twin linked gives you another chance.

.33 *.33 = .11 = 11% better chance to make a 44% chance of hitting

to pen (66%) makes it 29%

to explode (50%) makes it (rounded numbers) 15%

That is the proper numbers with old broadsides VS AV12 flyer.

the nice thing was that when they hit, it was a 100% that the opposing flyer was evading/jinking.

Something like the Forgefiend with 8 S8 shots, which can re-roll to penetrate dice would be far more suited for that kind of task.

...or a 25 point Cryptek with Voltaic Staff for 4 BS4 haywire shots

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I find it hilarious that people are saying that the Hammerhead will be great at anti-tank, when nobody took Hammerheads for anything but the submunition. Seriously, just about every advice thread for Tau from late 5th and through 6th will have experienced Tau players saying that the Hammerhead is unreliable at anti-tank because it's a single shot weapon and you can only max out three of them per army, which is why the Broadside was taken.

Now just about nothing changes on the hammerhead except points, and people are trying to say it's great at it. I'm having a hard time understanding this. This is honestly the same issue if Mutilators got updated to be about 5 points cheaper and people trying to sell them off as an excellent assault unit.

Funny, because I've played Tau for 5 years, and last week was I finished my third broadside, I've always used hammerheads for the S10 shot. Broadsides are new to me. I know I'm in the minority but I'm not alone.

jazzpaintball wrote:
with two guns being fired at BS1 (due to flyer) you hit on 6's.

Against AV12

1 in 6 chance. 2 dice mean double chances to 33% chance.

Let's stop you there. That's not how this works. Each die is a separate probability. You can't just add them together.

You can say that you expect to have 1/6 hits for each died roll. Then the expected hits give you something you can add.

twin linked gives you another chance.

Kind of.
1/6 Hit. Then 1/6 of 5/6 hit for the Twin link. Total chance to hit is 11/36 per shot.

.33 *.33 = .11 = 11% chance

No, not how that works at all.

You need to get the difference between expected results and probability.

WOW THIS THREAD HAS BECOME A MATHS LESSON!!


PLEASE STOP MATHHAMMERING HERE... THIS IS FOR RUMOUR DISCUSSION

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Do the Broadsides come in units of up to four now?

Nope sorry, only up to 3 and one of them may be upgraded to Shas'vre

 Materia_Master wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I find it hilarious that people are saying that the Hammerhead will be great at anti-tank, when nobody took Hammerheads for anything but the submunition. Seriously, just about every advice thread for Tau from late 5th and through 6th will have experienced Tau players saying that the Hammerhead is unreliable at anti-tank because it's a single shot weapon and you can only max out three of them per army, which is why the Broadside was taken.

Now just about nothing changes on the hammerhead except points, and people are trying to say it's great at it. I'm having a hard time understanding this. This is honestly the same issue if Mutilators got updated to be about 5 points cheaper and people trying to sell them off as an excellent assault unit.

Funny, because I've played Tau for 5 years, and last week was I finished my third broadside, I've always used hammerheads for the S10 shot. Broadsides are new to me. I know I'm in the minority but I'm not alone.

yup, been playing since the Tau were first released in 3rd edition. I have played with all the models many many times.

Since 5th edition, I have gotten away from vehicles in general. I love them in apoocolypse games, but in anything smaller than 2500 points, 2-3 devilfish is all that you need, and those were the taxes on the pathfinders.

Vehicles have gotten better in 6th, especially skimmers, but I still dont take them. Tau really shine when you take out all the fat out of your list. cheap commander, minimalist suits, minimalist vehicles. More models. I am feilding 88 models in a 1600 point list. They shine well. Broadsides made this possible with my anti-armor needs taken care of for the cost of 2 fully loaded hammerheads. I got 4 twin linked rails that are a lot harder to kill for less than 2 railheads.

taking that away from me forces me to change my entire play. I dont care if I change or not, but forcing me to have only one option to kill armor is what I hate. I do not feel that suiciding my Tau suits, as limited as they are, is a choise. but now, thats all I have. A tank, or suicide.

I am disapointed in the change due to this. I want the ability to chose what to take and how to play my army. Now it seams like I have to have a cookie cutter list... and that makes me a very sad tau player...

jazzpaintball wrote:
taking that away from me forces me to change my entire play. I dont care if I change or not, but forcing me to have only one option to kill armor is what I hate. I do not feel that suiciding my Tau suits, as limited as they are, is a choise. but now, thats all I have. A tank, or suicide.

I am disapointed in the change due to this. I want the ability to chose what to take and how to play my army. Now it seams like I have to have a cookie cutter list... and that makes me a very sad tau player...

You may want to wait a week or two before despairing. Or check the Redbeard quote in my sig.

For Broadside Math:

Old Broadside:

Chance to Hit Flyer: 31%

Chance to Pen Flyer:
AV10: 100%
AV11: 83%
AV12: 67%

Probability of Penetrating Hit:
AV10: 31%
AV11: 25%
AV12: 20%


New Broadside:

Chance to Hit Flyer: 75%

Chance to Pen Flyer:
AV10: 67%
AV11: 50%
AV12: 33%

Probability of Penetrating Hit:
AV10: 50%
AV11: 38%
AV12: 25%


Only a marginal benefit is obtained for the new broadsides against AV12, but considerable benfit is obtained for lower AV values. The new broadsides will be particular helpful against Cron Air, but not of much extra value against Vendettas, Heldrakes or Stormravens.

The real problem is that Tau have plenty of other AA options and did not need to lose their best AT just for the improved chance to down AV11 flyers.

The more and more I read of this thread, the more and more I realize that I must have been in a minority becuase:
- I love stealth suits and with Fusion Blasters and Burst Cannons both getting buffs, as long as they don't lose their stealth/shrouded they will be definitely worth their points
- Broadsides were amazing, but huge fire magnets that always died. My stealth and crisis suits did the grunt work when it came to destroying armor and decimating MEQ
- Hammerheads were my AOE, crowd control weapons. They were to make them roll dice on their infantry, not kill armor. Now they're cheaper.
- My stealth suits never competed with my crisis suits for elite slots. I had two HQ slots for crisis suits in addition to my 3 elite slots. I used two elite slots for stealth suits. and one for crisis, giving my HQ a bodyguard.

spoilered my inputs to the mathhammer debate below so I don't clutter the thread.

One element that this analysis ignores is that of Evading. In my experience flyers hit by powerful weapons will often choose to Evade. Hence, increasing your hit percentage may actually be more useful than increasing your strength, as in many cases forcing a flyer to Evade is "good enough." I for one am quite satisfied with the new Broadsides.

 Kingsley wrote:
One element that this analysis ignores is that of Evading. In my experience flyers hit by powerful weapons will often choose to Evade. Hence, increasing your hit percentage may actually be more useful than increasing your strength, as in many cases forcing a flyer to Evade is "good enough." I for one am quite satisfied with the new Broadsides.

Although you can also force the issue with markerlights and ignore cover.

edit wow im going nuts today nvm ignore that.

edit to make this post a little more useful. Did they keep price of failure? where all tau must take LD check?

jazzpaintball wrote:

 Materia_Master wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I find it hilarious that people are saying that the Hammerhead will be great at anti-tank, when nobody took Hammerheads for anything but the submunition. Seriously, just about every advice thread for Tau from late 5th and through 6th will have experienced Tau players saying that the Hammerhead is unreliable at anti-tank because it's a single shot weapon and you can only max out three of them per army, which is why the Broadside was taken.

Now just about nothing changes on the hammerhead except points, and people are trying to say it's great at it. I'm having a hard time understanding this. This is honestly the same issue if Mutilators got updated to be about 5 points cheaper and people trying to sell them off as an excellent assault unit.

Funny, because I've played Tau for 5 years, and last week was I finished my third broadside, I've always used hammerheads for the S10 shot. Broadsides are new to me. I know I'm in the minority but I'm not alone.

yup, been playing since the Tau were first released in 3rd edition. I have played with all the models many many times.

Since 5th edition, I have gotten away from vehicles in general. I love them in apoocolypse games, but in anything smaller than 2500 points, 2-3 devilfish is all that you need, and those were the taxes on the pathfinders.

Vehicles have gotten better in 6th, especially skimmers, but I still dont take them. Tau really shine when you take out all the fat out of your list. cheap commander, minimalist suits, minimalist vehicles. More models. I am feilding 88 models in a 1600 point list. They shine well. Broadsides made this possible with my anti-armor needs taken care of for the cost of 2 fully loaded hammerheads. I got 4 twin linked rails that are a lot harder to kill for less than 2 railheads.

taking that away from me forces me to change my entire play. I dont care if I change or not, but forcing me to have only one option to kill armor is what I hate. I do not feel that suiciding my Tau suits, as limited as they are, is a choise. but now, thats all I have. A tank, or suicide.

I am disapointed in the change due to this. I want the ability to chose what to take and how to play my army. Now it seams like I have to have a cookie cutter list... and that makes me a very sad tau player...

Our basic troops can take EMP grenades you know.

[Mod Edit - Please don't post pictures of actual rules/codices/etc. Thanks! Alpharius]

 pretre wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
One element that this analysis ignores is that of Evading. In my experience flyers hit by powerful weapons will often choose to Evade. Hence, increasing your hit percentage may actually be more useful than increasing your strength, as in many cases forcing a flyer to Evade is "good enough." I for one am quite satisfied with the new Broadsides.

Although you can also force the issue with markerlights and ignore cover.

I don't think firing markerlights at flyers will be generally practical, Skyray aside...

I'm pretty upset about the Kroot repurposing. Not because I was planning on using them in a Tau army, but because of how they will now be perceived. If everyone gets used to the standard Kroot model as being a sniper with crappy stats, it will be that much more difficult for me to effectively use a fully converted Kroot collection as an elite counts-as assault army.

It's almost like trying to use Ratling models as assault troops...

Wow, many weapon options for suits went UP in price... and the Shas'o is the only build available for choice... at a higher price... So a Crisis Suit HQ is going to be more expensive...

Didn't see that coming.