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Riptides can swap their SMS for a twin-linked Fusion Blaster.

Fusion Blaster is now 18". Use your Nova Reactor, get within 9", shoot Landraider, then move away with a 4D6 thrust move.

If the vehicle explodes, after your thurst move you'll be, on average, 23" (9 + [4*3.5]) away from the enemy by this point.

Even if the Nova Reactor fails, or you use it to fire the Fusion Blaster twice, you'll still be 17" away. Average infantry have a potential charge threat range of 18", so they will still need an incredibly lucky charge roll of 11 or 12 to reach you.

Now take three Riptides.

Sorry, what was the problem?

Spartan_Tau wrote:
Laser guided bombs have a laser in the nose of the bomb. You highlight target till bomb takes over.

No, they have no internal laser and must rely on an external source to paint the target, usually a targeting pod mounted on an aircraft (either the delivery aircraft or a secondary aircraft).

Had to delete these pictures. Appreciate the effort and though but this was a wee bit OTT.

reds8n

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Outside of 12" a multi-melta has exactly the same odds of killing an AV14 vehicle as the new Railgun, except the new Railgun has a 60" range and is twin-linked. If Piranhas and Fusion options suck, then why are multi-meltas so amazing?

Dark Eldar have vehicles (and troops) made of paper. To match the 13.89% chance of one-shotting an AV14 vehicle you'd need 3 BS4 Lascannons. Assuming 3 Railheads, a Marine player would have to get 9 Lascannons to match the firepower. Is this doable? Absolutely. When was the last time you saw a Marine player take 9 Lascannons?

So every Tau player always runs three Railheads, and they have always full Markerlight support? I thought the new Codex was supposed to encourage more varied lists? Look, I don't mind Broadside nerf as such (I used them only because they were necessary, the model was fugly and it was bit boring to play compared to Railhead) but I'm not convinced the Codex brings adequate tools to deal with reduced amount of long-range AT fire. And yes, I do realize you can't look this in a vacuum, you have to look at what the army has gained in respect of dealing with other threats, for example infantry units which those AV14 transports may carry.

9 Lascannons is not all that hard to put in an army. Also remember that many of the Marines' Lascannons are Twin-linked. BS4 TL is better than BS5. Deldar vehicles are paper but they can take lots of them. We can take three, and that means gutting the army of most of anti-aircraft capabilities: no Sky Rays, no Broadsides. Also no Ionheads or Sniper Drones, but I guess those units don't need to be used?

Other random musings...
-so Vespid increased in cost, disappointing. Sure they're better, but anything was better than old Vespid, so that doesn't tell much. They are still too expensive for firepower they bring, I don't think they see any more use compared to previous book. Now you can take them without Strain leader? That's not very fluffy.
-I remain puzzled why Fire caste HQ's have such a statline, better than most Marine HQ's. Not that they're overpowered or anything, since they're still just T3 with weak armour, but it's just kinda inconsistent for regular Fire caste to have more Wounds and Attacks than 300-year old Marine veteran.
-Sky Ray's being limited to six missiles isn't really big downside. I've never used full compliment of missiles during a game anyway.
-So Seeker missiles no longer can be called from other units? This is a huge big meh. Whole idea of Seeker missile was that it didn't matter where the missile was, anyone with Markerlight could call one. This was fun & fluffy and gave Fire Warriors kind of "heavy support" option, even if it wasn't that good.
-Sniper drones are now BS5 as long as controller is alive? Wow, too bad nobody will ever use them.

EMP grenades are now standard haywire grenades. Tossing one when shooting is an option to damage armor.

 Materia_Master wrote:

See that? It's little rules like that, that make me think that Vetock really does "get" the Tau. Rules like that, coupled with Darkstrider's tactical retreat rule and the grav-inhibitor drone. Each one of those takes a core element of the 6e rules, and makes them work more effectively for the Tau.
We don't need to make up new rules out of our butts, we just get rules that help us avoid the very situation that Tau are bad at. That rocks.

I have completely opposite opinion. Vetock does not "get" Tau. If you have read his other Codex (Dark Angels), the Tau book seems just a variation of same. In fact, even some of the rules are exactly same! (for example, DA have Dakka banner, Tau have Dakka dude).

Backfire wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Outside of 12" a multi-melta has exactly the same odds of killing an AV14 vehicle as the new Railgun, except the new Railgun has a 60" range and is twin-linked. If Piranhas and Fusion options suck, then why are multi-meltas so amazing?

Dark Eldar have vehicles (and troops) made of paper. To match the 13.89% chance of one-shotting an AV14 vehicle you'd need 3 BS4 Lascannons. Assuming 3 Railheads, a Marine player would have to get 9 Lascannons to match the firepower. Is this doable? Absolutely. When was the last time you saw a Marine player take 9 Lascannons?

So every Tau player always runs three Railheads, and they have always full Markerlight support?

No, I'm saying that non-melta or similar shooting never has been very good against AV14 anyway.

Vanilla Space Marines can take lascannons on 9 platforms (counting Venerable Dreadnoughts and Dreadnoughts as the same, otherwise 10). Tactical Marines, Sternguard, Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts, Predators, Land Raiders, Devestators, Storm Ravens and Storm Talons. Of these, Sternguard should never ever run with Lascannons, Land Raiders aren't taken for their firepower, Dreadnoughts aren't taken with Lascannons because they're better as anti-light AV Riflemen, Devestator Lascannons cost a metric crapton more than they're worth and Predator Lascannons cost quite a fair bit as well. This leaves Tactical Marines, Storm Ravens, Storm Talons and Razorbacks as useful Lascannon platforms.

Can you spam Lascannons? Yes, absolutely. Again, when was the last time you saw anyone do that? Marines can get S10 AP1 Ordnance Large Blasts too, but no one ever takes them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

No, I'm saying that non-melta or similar shooting never has been very good against AV14 anyway.

Yes, that's why recipe for victory has always been to wait until Battlewagons and Land Raiders get within Fusion blaster range, and tanks were dealt with Piranhas performing frontal charges across the field, or deep striking melta suits. <- sarcasm.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Vanilla Space Marines can take lascannons on 9 platforms (counting Venerable Dreadnoughts and Dreadnoughts as the same, otherwise 10). Tactical Marines, Sternguard, Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts, Predators, Land Raiders, Devestators, Storm Ravens and Storm Talons. Of these, Sternguard should never ever run with Lascannons, Land Raiders aren't taken for their firepower, Dreadnoughts aren't taken with Lascannons because they're better as anti-light AV Riflemen, Devestator Lascannons cost a metric crapton more than they're worth and Predator Lascannons cost quite a fair bit as well. This leaves Tactical Marines, Storm Ravens, Storm Talons and Razorbacks as useful Lascannon platforms.

Lascannon costs aren't the same in all Marine books: newer ones have cheaper. In Dark Angels book, Lascannons actually aren't that expensive. Lascannon Predator for example costs about same as Railhead in the new book, has same armour, same mobility (!).

Unless I'm missing something, aren't seeker missiles going to run into problems assigning wounds to targets that are out of LOS?

Backfire wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

No, I'm saying that non-melta or similar shooting never has been very good against AV14 anyway.

Yes, that's why recipe for victory has always been to wait until Battlewagons and Land Raiders get within Fusion blaster range, and tanks were dealt with Piranhas performing frontal charges across the field, or deep striking melta suits. <- sarcasm.

What used to be is irrelevant (especially considering Battlewagons only have side-AV 12...). If the only option for killing such things was to spam S10 shots (which it wasn't, but whatever) then that's the option people are going to take. There's loads of options now though. Sure, the Tau capability to fight Land Raiders or Monoliths at long range might have decreased. Considering how hard it looks like it's going to be to get into CC with Tau in the first place that might not actually matter that much. Your anti-infantry firepower looks as though it's skyrocketing in an edition where foot lists are very popular and you have ample ways to deal with low- and medium-AV vehicles. You can't have it all.

Backfire wrote:

Lascannon costs aren't the same in all Marine books: newer ones have cheaper. In Dark Angels book, Lascannons actually aren't that expensive. Lascannon Predator for example costs about same as Railhead in the new book, has same armour, same mobility (!).

If by "same mobility" you mean "can move 6" and fire it's main weapon and snapshot the rest" then yes. The Hammerhead is still a Skimmer and has better survivability and can get Markerlight support to become much better. The Railcannon is better against every single AV target other than fliers when compared to a twin-linked BS4 Lascannon anyway, with Markerlight support that's only going to turn more in favour of the Railhead, especially once we accout for cover saves.

 lordofthegophers wrote:
Sorry, what was the problem?

$255 for 3 suits, 6 drones.

Sure the Riptide is great; it has to be to get people to spend that absurd amount of coin.

Does everyone forget the Remora? Pros: TL heavy burst cannon, flyer, 2x seeker missiles. Cons: in the FA section

Commander w/ a drone controller and 2 missile drones w/bodyguards with 2 missile drones each is sick. That's 12 BS5(assuming boss is BS5) St7 shots just from the drones....Or alternatively 6 Markerlights that hit on 2+ for other units to use.

It's a big thing to note that only a single drone controller is needed for all the drones in a unit and they use the highest BS drone controller equipped model.

Interceptor on the drones on the Tau Bomber are pretty huge too. I can see a lot of opportunity on the bombers.

Riptide is looking silly good though I'm not sure how often I'll be using his drones.

Hammerheads are dirt cheap heavy support.

There is a ton of good information there. I just got even more excited.

do we know for a fact that drone controller covers ALL drones in a squad?

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

Spartan_Tau wrote:
Laser guided bombs have a laser in the nose of the bomb. You highlight target till bomb takes over.

No, they have no internal laser and must rely on an external source to paint the target, usually a targeting pod mounted on an aircraft (either the delivery aircraft or a secondary aircraft).

This is only partly true Maelstrom, while yes some laser guided missiles depend on internal lasers that are guided from the aircraft, there are ones that operate independently if no further signals come from its firing craft, or other crafts authorized to abort/change its target (depending on the type of target, target lock would allow it to follow its target even if its firer was killed immediately after firing the missile. There are newer missiles that are guided by independent lasers. These newer ones can also be fired independently from the craft they are on. However while the technology exists it is not widely used due to the fact that the average foot soldier does not have the authority to call a strike on possible targets that have the destructive power as missiles.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

What used to be is irrelevant (especially considering Battlewagons only have side-AV 12...). If the only option for killing such things was to spam S10 shots (which it wasn't, but whatever)

Yes, Battlewagon is just AV12 side. Which is why best way to deal with it was to move Hammerhead 12" to get a side shot...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

then that's the option people are going to take. There's loads of options now though. Sure, the Tau capability to fight Land Raiders or Monoliths at long range might have decreased. Considering how hard it looks like it's going to be to get into CC with Tau in the first place that might not actually matter that much.

Nice, so what do we do about Predators, Leman Russes, Psyriflemen, Soul Grinders etc?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

If by "same mobility" you mean "can move 6" and fire it's main weapon and snapshot the rest" then yes. The Hammerhead is still a Skimmer and has better survivability and can get Markerlight support to become much better. The Railcannon is better against every single AV target other than fliers when compared to a twin-linked BS4 Lascannon anyway, with Markerlight support that's only going to turn more in favour of the Railhead, especially once we accout for cover saves.

Except Predator has three BS4 Lascannons, one of which is Twin-linked. And Hammerhead being a skimmer means nothing - it's too slow & big to move over terrain pieces, unless you move 12" when you can't shoot. And hey, there are Markerlights again. "But we are just BS3! -Use Markerlights! -But we have less Railguns now! -Use Markerlights!"

So this is the new codex with its' increased "variety"? Forced synergy, make everything suck so you HAVE to use core element of the army.

hammerheads are still bs4.

 boy wonder wrote:
do we know for a fact that drone controller covers ALL drones in a squad?

Pictures above include the drone controller rule:

"All Gun Drones, Marker Drones, and Sniper Drones in the same unit as a model with a drone conroller use the bearers Ballistic skill instead of their own. If a unit contains several Drone Controllers, use the highest ballistic skill amongst the bearers."

This is assuming the missile drones are considered a sub-type of gun drone. If not then the markerlight thing will still be awesome.

Oh, and the sniper team is silly with all the snipers being BS5 thanks to the marksman and his controller.

 boy wonder wrote:
hammerheads are still bs4.

They are, but Railgun shots have become so scarce there is no point shooting them without full Markerlight support (no cover, BS5).

hmm missile drones aren't gun drones though.. that's gonna be the issue... hopefully an oversight to be faq'ed..but maybe purposeful

Backfire wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

What used to be is irrelevant (especially considering Battlewagons only have side-AV 12...). If the only option for killing such things was to spam S10 shots (which it wasn't, but whatever)

Yes, Battlewagon is just AV12 side. Which is why best way to deal with it was to move Hammerhead 12" to get a side shot...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

then that's the option people are going to take. There's loads of options now though. Sure, the Tau capability to fight Land Raiders or Monoliths at long range might have decreased. Considering how hard it looks like it's going to be to get into CC with Tau in the first place that might not actually matter that much.

Nice, so what do we do about Predators, Leman Russes, Psyriflemen, Soul Grinders etc?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

If by "same mobility" you mean "can move 6" and fire it's main weapon and snapshot the rest" then yes. The Hammerhead is still a Skimmer and has better survivability and can get Markerlight support to become much better. The Railcannon is better against every single AV target other than fliers when compared to a twin-linked BS4 Lascannon anyway, with Markerlight support that's only going to turn more in favour of the Railhead, especially once we accout for cover saves.

Except Predator has three BS4 Lascannons, one of which is Twin-linked. And Hammerhead being a skimmer means nothing - it's too slow & big to move over terrain pieces, unless you move 12" when you can't shoot. And hey, there are Markerlights again. "But we are just BS3! -Use Markerlights! -But we have less Railguns now! -Use Markerlights!"

So this is the new codex with its' increased "variety"? Forced synergy, make everything suck so you HAVE to use core element of the army.

Hm, maybe just wait for the actual codex and play some games before you rage hard?...
Maybe some other strategies turn out to be valid vs av14 that you don't even know of yet. 0o

I read somewhere about this tactic (Faeit 212, I think):

Commander "for markerdrones"
Drone controller.
2+ save +1T Armour (Iridium Armour).
Shield 4++.
Multitracker (shoot at diffrent unit).
Rockets.
2 markerdrones.

and 6/8 markerdrones as fast attack option. Attach the commander to the unit and you have got 8/10 BS5 markerlightshots, protected by the commander with 2+ save,4++ . And if i´m not missing something, they can reposition after the shooting phase, right?

Its sad to use an HQ slot like this, but it could be potentially a good option for durable/cheap/effective markerlights.

same problem with the snipers? sniper drones aren't affected by drone controller either?

Read the wording I posted again. Sniper is specifically mentioned.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Commander w/ a drone controller and 2 missile drones w/bodyguards with 2 missile drones each is sick. That's 12 BS5(assuming boss is BS5) St7 shots just from the drones....Or alternatively 6 Markerlights that hit on 2+ for other units to use.

You don't need bodyguards, just buy a Marker drone squadron and stick your commander into it.

doh my bad..apologies.

 IPS wrote:
[
Hm, maybe just wait for the actual codex and play some games before you rage hard?...
Maybe some other strategies turn out to be valid vs av14 that you don't even know of yet. 0o

Sure, maybe they do, but I'm not seeing any, and alternatives people suggest are silly.

Now take three Riptides.

If I built a Tau army right now there's no question I'd take three Riptides. Not only are the models fantastic (and heavily convertable/modifieable) but seem absurdly hard to kill. Tons of T6 wounds with a 2+ save, cover and invulnerable saves and FNP on top of it all. Drones too if you insist on gathering as many eggs in the same basket as you can. I think the most reasonable way of dealing with Riptides is somehow assaulting them since they are garbage in close combat and can't leave it like vehicles can, but it'll be easier said than done considering their mobility and that other Tau stuff will get on the way.

then go and buy a necron army to gauss av14 to death.. or a marine army full of lascannons.

tau have limited ability to deal with high av.. this is a fact that you cannot change.

these are the tools you have to do the job.. railcannon,fusion blaster,emp grenades,crisis power fist,seeker missiles,riptide smash attack,overcharged ion and heavy rail rifles.

make it work or make for the door.

Spartan_Tau wrote:
You know here's a thought points tax to play pathfinders and stealth suits in troops slots. 2 points per model for pathfinders. 5 points for stealth suits Max of 3 troops slots can be "bought" per Foc. Then we can actually get enough mobility and lights to make synergy work. And no a laser designator on a gun should not be heavy. You look down sights hit button unit painted. Goes on priority board unit moves on. Think real world or do none of you have gun experience?

I have trained with them. You have to keep the lock going to "paint a target". How else would munitions and systems know what their looking at. Break a laser off of the target equals no laser on the target equals nobody knows where the target is anymore. Have you any real laser targeting experience?

Also we are not playing a real life battle simulator but a silly board game.