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Will it be competitive in the tournament scene? Just so-so?

Some of the new Tau stuff looks great. You use the great stuff and I'm sure you have a good army. You use the stuff you like for whatever random reason and your army will probably suffer for it. The same as it's for every other 40K army.

Well, to be fair, the necrons don't really have that many hi strength weapons available either, and they do a decent job.

Come on. Spammable Necron vehicles come with S7 guns that hit more than 5 times per turn (better than 5x BS3 autocannons/missile pods), and their throwaway Gauss/Haywire squads are the best anti-tank in the game due to stripping you out of your hull points before you can say 'AV14 is garbage'. I bring 9 TL Tesla Destructors (~48 BS3 autocannons/missile pods) and 5 Voltaic Staffs myself into 1850 points. I doubt anything really compares, but while the Tau don't have spammable Haywire nor Gauss special rules, they do get plenty of S7 throughout the army (and S6 rending) and will probably deal with heavy armor with mass Fusion Blasters. I can't really see any need for Railguns at all if you have a ton of 18" range meltaguns on units that can move and shoot and keep moving.

 Therion wrote:

Will it be competitive in the tournament scene? Just so-so?

Some of the new Tau stuff looks great. You use the great stuff and I'm sure you have a good army. You use the stuff you like for whatever random reason and your army will probably suffer for it. The same as it's for every other 40K army.

Well, to be fair, the necrons don't really have that many hi strength weapons available either, and they do a decent job.

Come on. Spammable Necron vehicles come with S7 guns that hit more than 6 times per turn, and their throwaway Gauss/Haywire squads are the best anti-tank in the game due to stripping you out of your hull points before you can say 'AV14 is garbage'. I bring 9 TL Tesla Destructors and 5 Voltaic Staffs myself into 1850 points. The Tau don't have spammable Haywire nor Gauss special rules, but they get plenty of S7 throughout the army (and S6 rending) and will probably deal with heavy armor with mass Fusion Blasters. I can't really see any need for Railguns at all if you have a ton of 18" range meltaguns on units that can move and shoot and keep moving.

I'm pretty sure I said S7 was common in a necron list.
I forgot about the voltaic staffs though. I personally never use them because of their short range.

You left out the part where nearly every tau unit has access to a S5 weapon that can easily rip away hull points on light vehicles. That's pretty much their answer to gauss. Not as good as gauss, but they are slightly cheaper.
Just how much fusion can a tau list take? It sounds a bit scary.

Backfire wrote:

Beast wrote:
Seeker missiles required to shoot at same target as rest of vehicle??? WTF? Could someone have maybe mistaken SMART missile for SEEKER missile in translating the leaked pages? That would be a huge change (and a nerf slegde) if true... :-/

Markerlight entry explicitly says that Seeker missile can be only fired if the vehicle/battlesuit has them, and has to be fired at same target like rest of the weapons. Basically it's like more complicated version of Hunter-Killer missile. Infantry no longer can call Seeker missiles.

Seeker Missles were never amazing to begin with.

A S8 AP3 weapon you have to roll to hit with twice, that is one time use only and costs 10 points...not great. Plus it burned marker lights. I've never once had them be worth a damn (in about 6-8 seeker missles shots I've never even glanced or wounded a model with them).

To be honest, so far from the rumors, I see some nice tweaks, and some not nice tweaks. Removing Targeting Arrays - bad, marker lights are arguably worse (I've always thought them to be mediocre, given you need a BS 3 model to hit first to then help another unit, and Pathfinders have to all fire at the same unit...bad). The Riptide sounds decent, cheaper everything was badly needed (Crisis Suits were to expensive for what they did as were firewarriors), multiple drone units (now, have to see the codex and see if they're no longer used against unit morale, because they shouldn't count against a unit for morale or break tests, like they have at times), upgraded fusion blasters sound nice (as before they were pointless on crisis suits that were not a suicide mon'at).

What I would have liked to see, given how marker light crazy the leaks seem to be, is that a marker light lasts the whole turn for the whole army (i.e. everything can fire with the marker light bonus if shooting the marked item) and make pathfinders all have target locks or make them 'combat squadable' by breaking them up into squads of 2 (a spotter and a rifleman).


That said, best to get the codex and read through it to really gripe or praise.

Double post

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Just how much fusion can a tau list take? It sounds a bit scary.

If there are no restrictions on twinlink + 1 weapons on suits, 45 less then half being twin linked


Edit: sorry 53 with farsight.

@ therion

Oh, I wasn't worried about them not getting into range. I was worried about them getting charged by the angry squad of marines/orks/whatever that just happens to be inside/next to the vehicle.

for anti-tank: shadowsun with command-link drone, with 6 stealthsuits and 2 fusion blasters.

That gives you 4 twin linked fusion blast shots and you jump 3d6 away because of shadowsun's warlord trait.

does that sound feasable or do I have to think of something else

 Desubot wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Just how much fusion can a tau list take? It sounds a bit scary.

If there are no restrictions on twinlink + 1 weapons on suits, 45 less then half being twin linked

Blimey, that's scary. Good thing they are short ranged then.

I'm still amazed people are saying markerlights are worse.

3 ML's = All cover gone and hitting on BS4.

That's pretty decent if you ask me compared to the old system which on 4+ Cover save would take 4 ML's. On 3+ Cover it's even better. 5+ Cover it is the same.

Arguably we now have more areas to put markerlights to help out each other. I play against a lot of cover loving armies (IG and Dark Eldar) so even just taking their cover save off will help me massively.

So fireknives now are going to be twin linked plasma, single linked missile, built in multitracker?

 gr1m_dan wrote:
I'm still amazed people are saying markerlights are worse.

3 ML's = All cover gone and hitting on BS4.

That's pretty decent if you ask me compared to the old system which on 4+ Cover save would take 4 ML's. On 3+ Cover it's even better. 5+ Cover it is the same.

Arguably we now have more areas to put markerlights to help out each other. I play against a lot of cover loving armies (IG and Dark Eldar) so even just taking their cover save off will help me massively.

Not taking a stance on whether MLs are a good or bad, but to remove all cover for one unit and give it +1BS you need 6 marker lights, not 3, since you have to hit with them.

On average; ymmv.

It seems though that you can take more ML, so it balances it out I guess.

I'm just excited thinking about wiping guard blobs off the map on turn one by denying cover and hitting on 2's....

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'm just excited thinking about wiping guard blobs off the map on turn one by denying cover and hitting on 2's....

Why hitting on 2s?

 gr1m_dan wrote:
I'm still amazed people are saying markerlights are worse.

3 ML's = All cover gone and hitting on BS4.

That's pretty decent if you ask me compared to the old system which on 4+ Cover save would take 4 ML's. On 3+ Cover it's even better. 5+ Cover it is the same.

Arguably we now have more areas to put markerlights to help out each other. I play against a lot of cover loving armies (IG and Dark Eldar) so even just taking their cover save off will help me massively.

3 markerlights hitting, so 6 markerlights fired and that just hurts 1 unit with one of your units. The biggest problem with markerlights is that they don't benefit their own squad and apparently only Skyrays and the Bomber get the networked. They now need to shoot at the same target as a vehicle and are now going to be difficult to maneuver one unit into marker range and another with the seeker missiles it can shoot with... wait

Ok, can I shoot at a unit that I don't have line of site to? The seeker missile ignores line of sight, but I have to be shooting to spend the token and that target is out of the vehicles field of vision. Does this work?

Anyways, markerlights suffer from the problem that they aren't a unit buff, they are another unit's buff. Pathfinders are a huge target and the only real boost they get are drones to keep them out of CC, which makes you wonder who would bother with that. Seriously, just about every weapon ignores their armor, not that 5+ on a T3 model really helped in the first place.

Aren't markerlights 36" range? What's wrong with putting them in cover and letting the pathfinders snipe?

Can anyone confirm the strength of a Kroot Hound in the English codex? It clearly says strength 3 in the Spanish leaks, but I hear a lot of people talking about them still being strength 4.

 MajinMalak wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The Riptide does seem to have plenty of wounds on top of the T6 2+/5++. I think the best way to run it would be to use it as bait to draw it towards stealth suits, firewarriors, and/or pathfinders. Basically using it as a giant shield, even using the nova reactor to buff the shield just so it will soak up more fire or just get flat out ignored. If the enemy charges then they will have to deal with a literal wave of support fire.

And throw on Interceptor and Skyfire just so that it can't be ignored.

I personally think adding the FnP to the Riptide is one of the best ways to go. It's the only way he gets a chance to ignore the wound caused by the Nova reactor since it allows no saves. Pricey, but worth it IMO.

Absolutely agree, Stimulant Injector on Riptides seems like a complete no-brainer. Essentially for 35 points you get to re-roll failed invulnerable saves AND get a 5+ against wounds caused by a failed Nova charge.

Being T6 means you'll get that FNP roll against most everything, even S10.

Extra marker lights. 4=hitting on 2's and no cover.

Anyone notice that marker lights can be used to increase snap fire BS? Meaning if you land markerlight hits on a flyer you can increase the BS beyond one.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Aren't markerlights 36" range? What's wrong with putting them in cover and letting the pathfinders snipe?

Because things that kill pathfinders really good are 36" range as well. Think about it this way, you're going up against Tau and want to hurt him and help your unit the most with one round of shooting. What are you going to shoot at? Pathfinders obviously since it will hurt his entire BS3 SHOOTING ARMY. If you can even get them to run or go to ground, you're still causing a significant impact on the rest of his army. I guess my deal isn't with markerlights, it's with pathfinders in general.

I can't see any reason to take them over something like the Shas'O Why-am-I-more-expensive-now with his Marker drone squadron or tetras, which are fast and will still be able to move 12 and fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Extra marker lights. 4=hitting on 2's and no cover.

Anyone notice that marker lights can be used to increase snap fire BS? Meaning if you land markerlight hits on a flyer you can increase the BS beyond one.

In YMDC the argument was that you're not snap-firing but just "acting like you're snap-firing"

The wording is messed up but it's basically going to increase the BS3 to BS4, then get reduced down to BS1 due to the set modifier if I'm remembering right.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Extra marker lights. 4=hitting on 2's and no cover.

Anyone notice that marker lights can be used to increase snap fire BS? Meaning if you land markerlight hits on a flyer you can increase the BS beyond one.

In YMDC the argument was that you're not snap-firing but just "acting like you're snap-firing"

The wording is messed up but it's basically going to increase the BS3 to BS4, then get reduced down to BS1 due to the set modifier if I'm remembering right.

that's the way it used to be. With the wording of the markerlight rules on some leaked images, the codex specifically says that it also improves snapshots nad overwatch, meaning you can easily fire those shots at a BS greater than one, given that multiple units are all firing together.

Zachectomy wrote:
Onager gauntlet? Am I the only one that find that a little rude?

Or is it... not a reference to "donkey punching"?

Well, several things come to mind. One is that there was an ancient siege engine that was called an Onager, after the way it kicked on recoil, and the name is more likely a reference to the Onager's kick than to modern slang. Second is that an Onager is not really a donkey, but the "donkey punch" bit amuses me, and will continue to do so whenever I field it. Also, since it's more an ass than a donkey...well...I'm still giggling over that one, too.

 gr1m_dan wrote:
I'm still amazed people are saying markerlights are worse.

3 ML's = All cover gone and hitting on BS4.

That's pretty decent if you ask me compared to the old system which on 4+ Cover save would take 4 ML's. On 3+ Cover it's even better. 5+ Cover it is the same.

Common cover save is now 5+, including most wargear cover saves, so most of the time it's the same. Of course new system is better against Stealth, ruins etc. which give better cover save.

Yea Seeker Missiles were never that great, but they were fun and fluffy piece of wargear. Problem always was that Markerlights were so expensive that you almost never wanted to waste them firing Seekers. Now ML's look plentiful, but infantry can no longer use them.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Wait. Seekers have to be fired at the same target the vehicle shoots at? That's a downer. So that means if the vehicle can't fire any weapons because it turbo-boosted I couldn't spend marker tokens to fire missiles. There goes the plan for tubro boosting Piranha into rear armor. Seriously, they did tone down a lot for a struggling army.

From what I remember, shooting a Seeker Missile does not count as your shot for the turn nor does it count towards the max number of missiles you can shoot. So from that, if you Turbo-Boost and have not shot you should still be able to expend a ML to shoot the missile.

 Lysenis wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Wait. Seekers have to be fired at the same target the vehicle shoots at? That's a downer. So that means if the vehicle can't fire any weapons because it turbo-boosted I couldn't spend marker tokens to fire missiles. There goes the plan for tubro boosting Piranha into rear armor. Seriously, they did tone down a lot for a struggling army.

From what I remember, shooting a Seeker Missile does not count as your shot for the turn nor does it count towards the max number of missiles you can shoot. So from that, if you Turbo-Boost and have not shot you should still be able to expend a ML to shoot the missile.

It specifically mentions that Seekers are counted for the 2 missile maximum allowance and it fires in addition to other weapons. So if it turbo boosts it can't fire anything.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
I'm thinking that we're going to see a lot of Mark'Os (Battlesuit commander attached to Markerdrone Squadron) in the near future.

Hehe.

"Mark'o!"
"Polo!"

I feel like this has promise. Battlesuit tag?

Yeah, trying to think of a battlesuit commander configuration we could call the Pol'o

 Lysenis wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Wait. Seekers have to be fired at the same target the vehicle shoots at? That's a downer. So that means if the vehicle can't fire any weapons because it turbo-boosted I couldn't spend marker tokens to fire missiles. There goes the plan for tubro boosting Piranha into rear armor. Seriously, they did tone down a lot for a struggling army.

From what I remember, shooting a Seeker Missile does not count as your shot for the turn nor does it count towards the max number of missiles you can shoot. So from that, if you Turbo-Boost and have not shot you should still be able to expend a ML to shoot the missile.

It only doesn't count towards the number of full BS shots a vehicle can shoot, but also Does count towards the number of missiles a flyer can shoot. i think it implies that it is in fact a shooting attack of the vehicle which must expend the marker token for itself. no longer able to call random shots by infantry which i always though was cool.

so Turbo boosting which takes place of your shooting probably a no go, will have to see if they faq it

 Rented Tritium wrote:
So fireknives now are going to be twin linked plasma, single linked missile, built in multitracker?

I'm not sure if Fireknife will be the staple that it was.

Yes it's good, but it maybe a case of taking a unit of Twinlinked Fusion with another weapon to crack the shell of a tank and another unit of Twinlinked Plasma with another weapon the crack the nuts inside.

Only question is... Burst Cannon and TL Plasma? 6 shots at 12" that can do quite well against heavy and light infantry.

I think the humble Burst Cannon will make a great secondary weapon.

skyrays need a lot more love in order to take them. Once you fire all your missiles by turn 3 they are a waste of space.

 Lysenis wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Wait. Seekers have to be fired at the same target the vehicle shoots at? That's a downer. So that means if the vehicle can't fire any weapons because it turbo-boosted I couldn't spend marker tokens to fire missiles. There goes the plan for tubro boosting Piranha into rear armor. Seriously, they did tone down a lot for a struggling army.

From what I remember, shooting a Seeker Missile does not count as your shot for the turn nor does it count towards the max number of missiles you can shoot. So from that, if you Turbo-Boost and have not shot you should still be able to expend a ML to shoot the missile.

Yes, it does not count towards your total shots, but that is not the problem.

You move. In the shooting phase, you can either shoot or turbo-boost. You can not do both. Since you chose turbo-boost, you can not fire your weapons. Since the seeker is now considered part of your weapons system and not just a piece of wargear that can be activated by someone else, you can not use it unless firing.

As far as everything goes, the seeker missile is now an 8 point, one time use, glorified smart missile that needs a marker light to work.