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TL;DR - What makes Vanilla still competitive in 6th? They have what every other MEQ has but worse. They have no specialty, but they have a little bit of everything. But that's not what wins, what wins is consistency and redundancy. How do you make a list that uses the same units effectively as a C:SM player? Spamming Troop choice.

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I've recently started Vanilla Space Marines and for some odd reason, the reason I like them so much is because they are simply plain-Jane. They aren't very good at any one thing particularly but they rely on consistency to win. I love the fact that they have the most boring troops in the game: The tactical marine; and they just spam them. Imo, maximizing troop choices is one of the best ways to go (in 6th edition), so I'm leaning towards fielding 60 tac marines and Pedro+Sternguards for absolute scoring potential.

With every unit providing scoring opportunity, there is no chance of not being able to score as long as you don't get tabled. I've been racking my brain trying to figure out what vehicles I can put on the list and what upgrades (weapons) I can use to get the most effective point cost out of the TAC squads and Sternguards. I just don't see how I can do that though. I've tried full melta and flamers lists with Vulcan and playing the aggressive game, and I've tried MM lists where I find a nice medium-ranged army, but neither were very flattering.

My last option, is spamming Lascannons or ML's and trying to sit on objectives and sit in Rhinos and just hope I last until end game. I don't really see much options with the Vanilla marines. To make things worse, I've tried running Land Raider Redeemers and for some god awful reason, they can't get Dozer Blades and I got myself Immobilized in some pond water on a roll of a 1. Needlessly to say, it did not get its points back and I never want to run LR's again without a FAQ with DB for an upgrade. Lol.

I know Vanilla just got Stormravens and I see how well they work, but honestly, I've found that ignoring flyers is closest to the best thing. The only flyer I wouldn't be able to ignore would be the Heldrake. I'd need something to deal with him, and the lack of AA (since GW thought it would be okay to give DA flakk missiles only) is frightening. I also hear so much about TFC and how well it works. The small blasts are going to cut it for me though. Especially the S6 shots. Bleh.

I honestly believe it's about number of Troops and how well those troops can deal with everything. I know that's saying a lot because TAC squads are simply not very strong, but there has to be a way to maximize your scoring potential and having a way to deal with all forms of threats (Mech, Gunlines, Flyers).

In my first army, I run Tyranids with 10 MCs and 5 pods, I love going first, and applying pressure. But with Vanilla Marines, I kind of like going second, watching deployment and counter deploying. Don't forget that if you go second, you can get those late game captures and with 12 (spliting all groups in Combat squads) scoring troops, you'll have an easy time of maximizing scoring capability.

Vanilla Space Marines have toys all their own.

They have Thunderfire Cannons, Cheap Hammernators, 12 capacity drop pods, Vulkan, Lysander. And scoring bikes (DA can do this as well but I like vanilla for it more since they have better Air support). They also have The Storm Talon and Storm Raven which are good for anti-flyer without having to ally in guard.

An army that can spam troops which come decked out in special rules normally found in other Codicies elite sections and the ability to pick and choose from other almost identical but even more highly specialised units taken as no-strings battlebrothers.

Yeah I'm guessing they're fine.

I think C:SM can definitely be competitive. As you mentioned, our strength doesn't lie in gimmicks and flashy units. We are solid and consistent. Some people find that boring, and that is cool, 40k has many flavors for armies to suit all styles. Me, I love the fact that C:SM don't have anything special or crazy going for them. If we win, it isn't because of special rules or some flavor of the month codex FAQ or something; it is because of good solid planning and tactics. Also, everybody gets to play against Marines from one codex or another so everyone knows how to handle Marines for the most part. To me this just ups the challenge level and adds to the enjoyment of winning because I know that the opponent isn't some noob who didn't know we had some special rule or ability.

Our opinions on how to run Codex Marines seem to be polar opposites. I don't believe in spam, I believe in a well rounded, flexible, and balanced force. There are definitely good specialist/spam lists available to us, sternguard drop pod armies for example, but I think the essence of Codex Marines is to use balance and tactics. The way Guilliman would have wanted.

My list utilizes only two Tactical squads mounted in rhinos, along with two Vindicators, two Dreads (one Rifleman, one either LC/ML or Ironclad), Two Typhoon Speeders, a Terminator Librarian with Tactical Terminators, and now a Stormraven with a scout squad in it. I also sometimes incorporate other units like Sternguard, Assault Marines, Devastators, and a Captain for my HQ. All my lists play to our main strength, which is balance, and every list is capable of closing to shoot close range or assault, or take and hold ground, or castle up and hold a line. I've played and beaten a number of different armies too from deepstikers to hordes to gunlines, from Grey Knights to Tyranids. I don't win every time, but nobody does. I can honestly say I win a lot more than I lose (12-2 in the last few weeks), and in my losses I rolled the dice terribly or my opponent made a math defying number of saves to even win a close victory.

If you plan your army well, you can adjust the same force to different strategies based on the opponent you are facing. I suggest taking units that have multiple uses and that compliment each others abilities, giving yourself a mix of long range heavy weapons, closer range heavy weapons, high strength low ap shooting, melee and counter charge ability, weight of fire ability, unit mobility, ability to weather damage, etc. Also, I don't believe in one trick ponies (units that are really only good at one thing or against one target) or in putting too many points into one unit. In my army, you can kill off any unit and not cripple me, as the rest of my force can adjust to cover the gap left by my lost units. Combine that with the ability to consistently inflict casualties on the enemy every turn and my Marines can be a tough opponent to deal with.

If you want to maximize your scoring potential then I think there are a few things you must do. Give your opponent other targets, if all you have are a ton of Tactical Marines then your opponent will have nothing better to shoot than your scoring troops; field other more pressing threats, like tanks, dreads, terminators, speeders, etc. Give your troops a transport, if you have other threats then your opponent will loathe to spend valuable firepower shooting a Rhino in cover to try and get at your troops, when/if you lose your transport, get your Marines into cover. Combat squad in objective games when you need more scoring units, sit five Tac Marines or scouts in cover and keep them out of LOS of your enemy if possible. Keep your troops cheap, and don't expect them to bring the bulk of your killing power, I have tried myself and faced armies that put a lot of points into heavy and special weapons for their Tac Marines and they rarely end up being more worth it than investing those points in other, more legitimate killers. I am not saying don't give weapons to your Tac Marines, but only give them weapons to suit the job you want them to do (I might give a lascannon to my combat squadding Tac Marines to sit the LC squad on a back objective and put the other half on a Quadgun with a flamer to hold the line), I think special weapons are worth buying but as far as heavy weapons I'll only give them a PC or LC if I have points to spare and nowhere else to spend them. Plan on your troops being support units for the rest of your force and use them as such, the hard truth is that other, non-troop units are where you will get your killing power from. Troops just need to survive and get a few kills here and there.

Anti Flier for C:SM isn't any different than for other armies. You either need large volumes of fire (you'll eventually get a 6) and/or lots of twin linked weapons, or you will need Skyfire/Interceptor units (fortifications w/ gun emplacements, Contemptor Dreads, or your own fliers), or you will need to just try your best to kill more enemies than your opponents flier can kill of your units and weather their fire. An Aegis Defense Line with your choice of gun emplacement can be pretty useful and cheap and gets you good 4+ cover and a quadgun/lascannon for a unit to shoot. I also used a Stormraven for the first time recently and it was amazing. I was pretty against using fliers but my mind is changed now.

Sorry for writing a small novel here, but I feel pretty strongly that C:SM are a good army and simply overlooked and underrated by most players. You seem to like C:SM for the right reasons so don't get discouraged. We aren't Marines in easy-mode like other codex's (*cough* Space Wolves *cough*) but we can bring the pain just like any Marine army, you just have to use your head.

Curious as it may seem, i play for 3 years now and my vanilla marines have lost only 2 games against other marine armies..
The good man above said everything needs be said..

 UltraTacSgt wrote:
TL;DR, one needs to be units that absorb a bunch of fire, as to take fire off of one's tac squads, and tac squads should support those speciallists.

This(@UltRaTacSGT hopefully I summarized your post well enough as to not lead people astray). If I could exalt this post multiple times, I would. Someone forgot to put this in the Codex Astartes.

Ultrasgt's post hits the nail on the head. Vanilla marines are so solid. They aren't flashy, they aren't the most point efficient, and they won't overpower anyone but their strength lies in consistency and flexibility. 6th edition isn't about power, yes tabling happens but it's not gonna win you as many games as it did in 5th. Victory conditions became the predominate metric in this edition and vanilla marine excel at that.

People keep saying that vanilla marines don't have gimmicks. Prior to 6th ed this wasn't true, but Combat Tactics has become a crazy-useful gimmick that outshines the base special rules of Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Black Templars. In 6e there are two big changes to ATSKNF that make Combat Tactics absurd:

- No more extra wounds for trying to fall back and getting caught.
- No more restriction on regrouping within 6" of an enemy (huge!).

There is now literally no reason not to try and fall back from a combat in the opponent's turn. If it doesn't work, you take no penalty for trying it, and if it does work, you get to shoot the enemy to pieces. Keeping C:SM in assault is a pain in the butt. Not to mention that going to ground is a no-strings-attached cover save boost if you're going to lose some models anyways - as long as you lose 25% for a Morale test, you can fall back, regroup and not worry about being pinned. Properly used, Combat Tactics is one hell of a boost to C:SM that most people overlook.

I do think they've suffered from codex creep. They may have been solid mid-tier when they were released but now they're solid meh. There's so much AP3 or lower, in both shooting and melee, that power armour becomes very expensive for what you get, and their transports are just pathetic. In 5th you could get lucky with penetrating rolls but in 6th, its hull points will go, quickly.

Their pathetic transports cost barely more than two marines. While it may easily give up first blood, it is going to protect the marines. While AP2/3 weapons are more prevalent, they cost as much as a marine to field so liveable.

The problem with SM - IMO - is to get caught up in the fancy stuff when a plain jane marine will do.

As an example, a friend of mine used to run a drop pod Ultramarine army. It was old and not maximized choices for special or heavy weapons. Now it got creamed every time as in lots of dead tacticals all over the place but amazingly- by staying true to the objectives - it won most of its games.

Can they be competative? Of course, but only because of the player behind it.

Is it going to be tougher because our codex is out of date? yeah. Consider the new cost of tactical squads in the DA codex, or scouts/new abilities of raven wing bikes/cheaper librarian/etc. Once we get that we'll be a lot MORE competitive for sure (especially the troops cost and flexibility). We'll probably lose garunteed gate and null zone though, so start keeping that in mind.

How best to be competative then? Get FW units and play with them, namely hyperios platforms and mortis contemptors (start with the hyperios).

Hyperios - For 15 more points than a typhoon speeder for SM you can have 3 twin linked (bs3) krak shots with skyfire and interceptor with 6 toughness 6 wounds with a 3+ save. Immobile to be sure, but still a damn good deal.
Contemptor - just think a CML with 12 twin linked assault cannon shots. All with skyfire and interceptor if he doesnt move. Oh and he's front av13, 5++ save to boot.


FW is the best way to make SM competative, because it's the best way to get AA with any reliability. Especially given that our biggest threats (hellturkey, flyrant, etc) are in the sky. Dont get me wrong, the storm talon is well costed now (as is the raven), it's just that you dont want all your AA to be in the form of air, otherwise you have potential reserves issues making it too late before your AA arrives. Instead you get a storm talon/raven WITH 3 hyperios and so forth.

So yes a balanced force with solid AA from FW is competative, but realize it's an uphill battle and we are at a disadvantage because our codex is older and not as gimmicky (which can get around being old, think DE/E combinations with fortune)

I'm going to quote myself from a couple of other recent threads on the same or similar subjects. You can read the whole threads by going to the linked posts, too.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The best builds I've seen from Codex: Space Marines of late have been very shooty, using Combat Tactics & ATSKNF to get out of bad assaults and keep their scoring units alive, while blasting the crap out of people. A Librarian with Null Zone makes an excellent cheap HQ who helps you kill durable enemy units with invulnerable saves. Alternately, some SM armies employ a bit unit of assault terminators with TH & SS (which they get cheaper than any other army) as a HtH beatstick unit/shield for the rest of their army.

Jesse has had some good battle reports in the last year in the Bat Reps forum, showing a couple of such lists and how he's used them in tournaments. Let me dig up a couple of links...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/506204.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/445880.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/436105.page

 Mannahnin wrote:
Combat Squads is more a focus of this book than other. ATSKNF + Combat Tactics is fantastic now.

Vanilla also has a fair number of unique toys and units; Thunderfire, Null Zone, Ironclad, the cheapest TH & SS terminators, Vulkan, Landraiders and Drop Pods with higher capacity, etc.

People mostly say "use this codex instead" when they see someone focusing a list on something a different book does better.

People obsess over the "soft" aspect of marines (mainly by grossly over-stating the importance of ATSKNF) because their "hard" aspect, mainly high firepower and high durability, is so over-priced or simply non-existant. Hence why they need Forgeworld for properly competative units, an exception to this is sternguard who're simply amazing, against anyone. 10 sternguard with combi-meltas in a drop pod will kill pretty much anything on the board, with not much the enemy can do about it.

I do think they've suffered from codex creep. They may have been solid mid-tier when they were released but now they're solid meh. There's so much AP3 or lower, in both shooting and melee, that power armour becomes very expensive for what you get, and their transports are just pathetic. In 5th you could get lucky with penetrating rolls but in 6th, its hull points will go, quickly.

While I will agree that some of the costs are a bit too high, I disagree that C:SM is merely "meh." People still taking transports are losing because they haven't adapted (in most cases anyway). Saying that Rhinos/Razors are bad now isn't exclusive to Vanilla Marines.

In general, they have:

HQ- Libby with Null Zone is still solid, though overpriced now. Pedro, Lysander, Kahn, and even Vulcan are still decent options.
Elites-SS TH Termies aren't quite as good now, but they are actually priced a bit better in this dex. Sternguard are also very good.
Troops- Tacs are a bit overpriced, but are still good enough. Scouts are fine objective grabbers.
Fast Attack-Attack Bikes still have a place. Re-costed Stormtalons are decent.
Heavy Support-Storm Ravens are underrated, as are Thunderfire Cannons. They also have the regular selection of choices here.

Overall, C:SM has enough choices to make them worthwhile. IMO, you should always ally IG in with MEQ anyway, so there is no real point in arguing the dex in a vacuum. Can SW, BA, and DA do things Nillas can't? Sure. At the same time, Vanilla Marines have enough interesting units to make it work.

 JGrand wrote:

I do think they've suffered from codex creep. They may have been solid mid-tier when they were released but now they're solid meh. There's so much AP3 or lower, in both shooting and melee, that power armour becomes very expensive for what you get, and their transports are just pathetic. In 5th you could get lucky with penetrating rolls but in 6th, its hull points will go, quickly.

While I will agree that some of the costs are a bit too high, I disagree that C:SM is merely "meh." People still taking transports are losing because they haven't adapted (in most cases anyway). Saying that Rhinos/Razors are bad now isn't exclusive to Vanilla Marines.

In general, they have:

HQ- Libby with Null Zone is still solid, though overpriced now. Pedro, Lysander, Kahn, and even Vulcan are still decent options.
Elites-SS TH Termies aren't quite as good now, but they are actually priced a bit better in this dex. Sternguard are also very good.
Troops- Tacs are a bit overpriced, but are still good enough. Scouts are fine objective grabbers.
Fast Attack-Attack Bikes still have a place. Re-costed Stormtalons are decent.
Heavy Support-Storm Ravens are underrated, as are Thunderfire Cannons. They also have the regular selection of choices here.

Overall, C:SM has enough choices to make them worthwhile. IMO, you should always ally IG in with MEQ anyway, so there is no real point in arguing the dex in a vacuum. Can SW, BA, and DA do things Nillas can't? Sure. At the same time, Vanilla Marines have enough interesting units to make it work.

This.

JGrand has summed it up perfectly. Allying in IG solves your model count/ scoring issue and gives you cheap FA and HS options like the vendetta and manticore. Some really devastating combos like a Null Zone Libby in a Stormraven can seriously decimate armies that rely on invulnerable saves like the newest kid on the block..demons. Honestly I have no clue what a Demon army does to that combo. Like all the old dexes you have to minimize the overcosted units in your codex and emphaise the more efficient ones.

You mean they can hard counter an army if they specifically know they're playing against them? That's hardly unique to SM, nor is it very sporting. If I had a friend who played SM and *every* game he just got a null zone librarian running around and ruining my day...I would not be happy. That'd be like an inverse Fateweaver. If he's OP for demons, null zone is pretty cheesy for SM.

 BryllCream wrote:
You mean they can hard counter an army if they specifically know they're playing against them? That's hardly unique to SM, nor is it very sporting. If I had a friend who played SM and *every* game he just got a null zone librarian running around and ruining my day...I would not be happy. That'd be like an inverse Fateweaver. If he's OP for demons, null zone is pretty cheesy for SM.

I run a Librarian with Null Zone and Gate of Infinity every game. They're the go-to powers IMO. Whether or not that's "cheesy" is another question. Often, Null Zone does nothing-- but in the matchups where it's good, it's really good.

No he's saying they're a great take all comers army and have abilities to kick the crap out of top tier armies... There is a big difference there.

 BryllCream wrote:
You mean they can hard counter an army if they specifically know they're playing against them? That's hardly unique to SM, nor is it very sporting. If I had a friend who played SM and *every* game he just got a null zone librarian running around and ruining my day...I would not be happy. That'd be like an inverse Fateweaver. If he's OP for demons, null zone is pretty cheesy for SM.

Every good SM list usually includes a Null-Lib

Out of all the armies I can't stand facing, one of them is Marines. They always manage to find ways to squeeze out a win and just do not die.

They have an answer to everything too, whether it is an FMC or Flyer or a Super Heavy Vehicle.

Can they be competitive?

I say yes. They can just about be competitive with certain builds, but a good general behind a good build can become nearly unstoppable.

Marines are the Ryu and Ken of 40k - not bad at anything, but good at everything.

The short of it is -- yes. They are competitive.
People have given more details already of why in this thread.

As said, they are,...

i face off against vanilla a lot with my Crons And Ork... They always give me a hard time before my victory or smash my face in.. Enough reasons have been given already as to why they are..

They require more thought and skill then their ''superior'' brothers..