Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can we please, please try not to make this into a GW v PP thread. Let's all avoid comparisons like the plague.

If you want the 'discount' retailers get to sell the product at or below MSRP... then you play by the terms of getting that discount. If you don't want to agree to the terms, you may purchase the product at 'retail' and then re-sell it however you want as you are bound by no contract.

If I go to 'COSTCO' and buy sodas and candybars, there is no agreement for me in regards to how I sell it. There is for COSTCO who has an agreement.

If I wanted the discount, I could contact a food distributor to 'stock' me but then I have to play by their rules and follow them.

This is not new and how the industry works. While GW may have funky rules which make it harder to sell their product... it is their product. If you don't like it, then you can buy it retail like everyone else and sell it however you wish with whatever mark up you need to stay profitable... or not sell it. Stores get into feuds about those terms all the time and then switch to a competing product. Coke/Pepsi have some crazy terms to get served those products down to what your employees can drink on their own time and sending spies to places to ask for coke knowing they serve pepsi to see if you clearly state 'we serve pepsi products'.

There is madness across all of the industries, most people are not tuned in to it like we are with Wargaming minis.

Forgive me if no one has mentioned this before, but this has been like this for years in the UK, trade account customers cannot sell bitz from the boxes they buy, suprising that it hasnt always been like this in the US or are people just picking up on this fact now?

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

As far as the paranoia goes, could be...I trust no one. However, I know of a couple people who frequent these message boards who send off an email once a month or more often which amounts to not much more than tattling. There is also a retailer who frequents Warseer who has made it his mission to report any violations of trade terms (or percieved violation). Would be nice if I were wrong, but generally that isnt human nature, especially in the environment that exists online.

You know Sean, previously I would have thought that was paranoia--until I read the CH lawsuit depositions.




On one hand, GW is probably putting out the most conversion friendly kits in its existence as a company. I can't honestly think of another miniatures company right now that is more open to potential conversion both within their IP and their plastic kits. It's easy for modelers to get an idea, buy some major kits, bits out his inspiration with other kits and build something interesting.

Then they put out this policy....

Can someone clarify this for me? Can a store with a GW Contract sell used miniatures?

 TBD wrote:
It could be a very risky mistake by them considering the US is the place where other mini games seem to be on the rise much more than elsewhere in the world. If anything they could be playing right into the hands of Privateer Press etc.

Australia is a place where other mini games are on the rise quite a lot (or were on the rise and are now large). When I started collecting it was mostly 40k and Fantasy everywhere you went, these days I can get a game of other systems as easily if not easier than GW games and FLGS GW shelves are shrinking and other games are getting bigger. Doesn't stop GW being anti-consumer and pushing more people away in Oz and thinking it's fine. I understand GW want their consumers to think they're the only game in town... though I think they're stupid enough to actually believe it themselves.

thundering wrote:
Can someone clarify this for me? Can a store with a GW Contract sell used miniatures?

Of course, GW can only stipulate matters regarding product that they have supplied.

MarkyMark wrote:
Forgive me if no one has mentioned this before, but this has been like this for years in the UK, trade account customers cannot sell bitz from the boxes they buy, suprising that it hasnt always been like this in the US or are people just picking up on this fact now?

So how does BitzBox.co.uk work?

How can they prove that the stuff in consignment is from the store breaking open boxes though. It doesn't make since to me. Or can they just cancel accounts based on assumption?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The only thing I bought this year is a Codex... and even I feel kinda stupid for doing that.

Did it burn when paying for it?

 Alfndrate wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Forgive me if no one has mentioned this before, but this has been like this for years in the UK, trade account customers cannot sell bitz from the boxes they buy, suprising that it hasnt always been like this in the US or are people just picking up on this fact now?

So how does BitzBox.co.uk work?

By not being a GW trade account customer.

I don't really understand the "problem" GW is trying to solve by doing this.

If a bitz store is currently supplied directly from GW, it's pretty easy to get around it. Just establish a new LLC under a different name. Company 1 continues to buy from GW and sells to the new LLC with zero markup; it's just doing a pass through. LLC does business as a bitz store. Neither company would be breaking an agreement. Done right, GW would never know who the bitz store was getting their product from nor the "real" owners. Setting up an LLC is extremely cheap. So the only additional cost is a bit of accounting time; which isn't a deal breaker.

If the bitz store is not currently supplied by GW, then this changes nothing.

Either way, what possible benefit is there to GW to even try and stop bitz sales? They keep shouting how this is a Hobby after all.

So, I buy a box of DE Warriors and I want to make a unit of trueborn with blasters. There aren't enough blasters so I have four choices. 1. I can by 4 more boxes of warriors (stupid); 2. I can buy a few blasters online (not cheap, but certainly better than #1); 3. I can buy something that looks like blasters from another store; or 4. I can break out some modeling stuff, create a mold from the one I have and make my own.

Hell would freeze over before I did #1. If they want to stop #2 then I, and a lot of other modelers like me, will either do #3 or #4. Given that GW no longer supports any tournaments then #3 is viable whereas #4 just means I need to take a saturday afternoon and learn how to cast things.

Just seems stupid all the way around.

clively wrote:
If a bitz store is currently supplied directly from GW, it's pretty easy to get around it. Just establish a new LLC under a different name. Company 1 continues to buy from GW and sells to the new LLC with zero markup; it's just doing a pass through. LLC does business as a bitz store. Neither company would be breaking an agreement. Done right, GW would never know who the bitz store was getting their product from nor the "real" owners. Setting up an LLC is extremely cheap. So the only additional cost is a bit of accounting time; which isn't a deal breaker.

Also against their policys, trade account customers can only sell to user end customers, not for resale. Plus if they are found out and it wouldnt be that hard to do so, they will lose their GW trade account status, which could be the majority of their business.

That was the reason my FLGS said they wont do bitz sales, even though he has thousands of bitz left and that is how I know that this policy has been in force in the uk for some time

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can we please, please try not to make this into a GW v PP thread. Let's all avoid comparisons like the plague.

Privateer Press has a bits store

clively wrote:
I don't really understand the "problem" GW is trying to solve by doing this.

If a bitz store is currently supplied directly from GW, it's pretty easy to get around it. Just establish a new LLC under a different name. Company 1 continues to buy from GW and sells to the new LLC with zero markup; it's just doing a pass through. LLC does business as a bitz store. Neither company would be breaking an agreement. Done right, GW would never know who the bitz store was getting their product from nor the "real" owners. Setting up an LLC is extremely cheap. So the only additional cost is a bit of accounting time; which isn't a deal breaker.

If the bitz store is not currently supplied by GW, then this changes nothing.

In one of the first pages of the agreement is a clause that specifically prohibits sale of GW product to non-consumers. You could not resell to an alternate corporate entity without violating the trade agreement.

Not saying that GW really has any way of finding you out, but if they did found out, you would, indeed, lose your trade account with GW.

MarkyMark wrote:

clively wrote:
If a bitz store is currently supplied directly from GW, it's pretty easy to get around it. Just establish a new LLC under a different name. Company 1 continues to buy from GW and sells to the new LLC with zero markup; it's just doing a pass through. LLC does business as a bitz store. Neither company would be breaking an agreement. Done right, GW would never know who the bitz store was getting their product from nor the "real" owners. Setting up an LLC is extremely cheap. So the only additional cost is a bit of accounting time; which isn't a deal breaker.

Also against their policys, trade account customers can only sell to user end customers, not for resale. Plus if they are found out and it wouldnt be that hard to do so, they will lose their GW trade account status, which could be the majority of their business.

That was the reason my FLGS said they wont do bitz sales, even though he has thousands of bitz left and that is how I know that this policy has been in force in the uk for some time

Ahh, didn't know that there was an exclusion here. Sneaky.. I therefore withdraw my statements as anything but an obviously uneducated opinion. Still don't understand why they would even bother though.

 CIsaac wrote:


Not saying that GW really has any way of finding you out, but if they did found out, you would, indeed, lose your trade account with GW.

And some people have issues with knowingly commiting fraud, which setting up a dummy company and selling to yourself to circumvent a trade agreement you entered into would be. There is a difference between some dude off the street randomly buying 1000$ of product a week and you knowingly buying 1000$ of product a week to turn around and sell to your own company or your spouses' company.

The risk simply is too high to do for many owners. And if GW suspects, they can terminate the agreement even if you legally made your LLC. As long as they are not cutting you off for being a protected class and the contract has such 'termination clauses', there probably is nothing you can do about it.

Customers basically sit back and say 'yeah store owners, commit fraud and risk your livelihood so I can get cheap bitz please, they will never know.' That is never a good recipe for someone who runs a business.

(I am not saying GW's policy is good/bad, just saying it is not reasonable or realistic for businesses to actively circumvent or commit fraud when it comes to commercial trade agreements or contracts. The reward for the risk simply isn't there especially if GW is a substantial part off your revenue stream. If you can't survive for 6th months without selling GW product, then the risk is way too much to even consider doing. For customers to ask or even demand shops do such steps to circumvent agreements is entitled arrogance as there is zero risk for the consumer. If one person gets nailed, the customer just moves to the next retailer. If a retailer wishes to circumvent the policy with these ideas, then it should be his choice to risk it and then he has only himself to blame should he get caught and invalidate his trade agreement and lose his ability to make income.)

Soooo.. the leg I'm missing for one of the bloodletters i just bought (the box set was missing a leg when i opened it) requires me to buy a whole new box of Bloodletters?.... No, GW.... just... No.

 Bellzo wrote:
Soooo.. the leg I'm missing for one of the bloodletters i just bought (the box set was missing a leg when i opened it) requires me to buy a whole new box of Bloodletters?.... No, GW.... just... No.

No, you call GW Customer Service and they replace it. Of all GW's problems, Customer Service is not one of them.

 Bellzo wrote:
Soooo.. the leg I'm missing for one of the bloodletters i just bought (the box set was missing a leg when i opened it) requires me to buy a whole new box of Bloodletters?.... No, GW.... just... No.

Actually GW is pretty decent about getting you the pieces that are missing from a box

 Bellzo wrote:
Soooo.. the leg I'm missing for one of the bloodletters i just bought (the box set was missing a leg when i opened it) requires me to buy a whole new box of Bloodletters?.... No, GW.... just... No.

No, Bellzo. It requires you to call or email GW's customer service.

Edit: Ninja'd twice!

 Bellzo wrote:
Soooo.. the leg I'm missing for one of the bloodletters i just bought (the box set was missing a leg when i opened it) requires me to buy a whole new box of Bloodletters?.... No, GW.... just... No.

Bring the box back.... their agreements don't invalidate your statutory rights.
In the EU the kit is not sold as advertised, that entitles you to a refund, a replacement or a repair. So they must do the first two.

Just hope that GW doesnt use this to make bogus claims to cut off certain online suppliers or competing B&M stores.

Anyone who has ever dealt with OEM computer components or wholesalers knows that this kind of thing has no real power. It's hilariously easy to launder the product in a way that GW cannot trace and sell bits on ebay anyway.

This seems a dumb move from GW if true. They know players like to convert. There is no use in restricting the profits of people who mean more people buy GW models to convert.

This would be just a plain stupid move.

Unless GW thinks that people are going to buy full kits just to have that one conversion piece. Not likely.

If they can't get them from bit stores people will just cast there own. Or people will continue to use bits store except that bit store that makes not a lot of money as a friendly GW re-seller will be making even less money as a disgruntled GW re-seller.

So this really can only be seen as a move against bit sellers but will likely have a negative effect on a whole as people will know not to buy GW kits because getting that one extra conversion part will be that bit harder (no pun intended).

 ceorron wrote:


Unless GW thinks that people are going to buy full kits just to have that one conversion piece. Not likely.

Actually thats exactly what they expect, I worked for them when the Bitz program ended and we were clearly told via email from up high to suggest buying the box you need, even if for one part.

Well I guess this greenlights Chinese recasters to go into overdrive. People may have to put up with longer lead times on shipping but we will still be able to get the bits they want for conversions, they just won't have been produced by GW.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 ceorron wrote:


Unless GW thinks that people are going to buy full kits just to have that one conversion piece. Not likely.

Actually thats exactly what they expect, I worked for them when the Bitz program ended and we were clearly told via email from up high to suggest buying the box you need, even if for one part.

Actually I was being flippant, i'm pretty sure that is what GW expects and hopes for. This is probably why they are attacking the bits re-seller. Still my point stands this is unlikely to work, all it will do is restrict the profits of bits re-sellers and mean fewer kits are soled as bits for conversion are harder to come by or are more expensive as a result.

silent25 wrote:
Did it burn when paying for it?

No.

Why do people keep saying Bitz will go away when that is clearly not the case? There are plenty of bitz dealers who are not tradepartners and never have been.

There may be less dealers and/or prices will go up but they won't go away... And nothing justifies recasting... If you don't want to pay for a product then 'go without'. There will be legal bitz sellers still and even more legal 3rd party makers. There is no need to resort to illegal recasting.