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nkelsch wrote:
Why do people keep saying Bitz will go away when that is clearly not the case? There are plenty of bitz dealers who are not tradepartners and never have been.

There may be less dealers and/or prices will go up but they won't go away... And nothing justifies recasting... If you don't want to pay for a product then 'go without'. There will be legal bitz sellers still and even more legal 3rd party makers. There is no need to resort to illegal recasting.

I don't want to have to resort to illegal recasting either but I don't want to see GW attacking the little guy either especially when he is actually making good reason for people to continue to buy GW products, in this case i'd actually be in favor of GW welcoming bits sellers to become GW partners and gain the benefits many retailers get, anything to allow more open trade that promotes the product into the hands of more gamers IMO.

Without the sellers GW is just cutting into itself here.

I do not personally support recasting myself but I do feel GW might be making a rod for its own back.

Not saying GW isn't hurting themselves, but running to chinese recasters in the name of 'supporting the little guy' who is hurt by this policy doesn't mesh for me. I think there are consumers who don't care about businesses competing fairly in the market and just want cheap or free products regardless who it hurts.

There will still be legal bitz dealers and 3rd party companies even with this policy. The market will adjust having to cut and sell bitz off of a higher retail base price. With the increase in bitz prices, there may be more market for 3rd parties making more conversion bitz and not just top sellers like weapons. The market adapts when everyone plays by the rules. Running to recasters isn't the solution and helps no one.

Yeah, going to recasters sends the wrong message. It tells GW that you weren't a customer worth catering to anyway.

Now, if chapterhouse et al want to make convenient heads and legs for scifi miniatures, I will be first in line to buy them.

I don't thinking anyone is running to recasters to support the little guy, anyone that thinks that would be a fool. However history shows whenever you clamp down on the legal trade for a product it opens the door unscrupulous types to try and take advantage. If bit sellers have to purchase kits at a higher cost be it smaller discount or retail which they pass onto the consumer , then the profit opportunity increases for recasters and makes it more attractive for them to chance their arm in the market place. Only a person of the most restricted mental stature would believe that this will not happen. Legal channels of operation at a reasonable price actually starves the market for recasters. It is both good for the consumer as they get the product they want at a reasonable price and its good for the retailer as there is no market vacuum for the unscrupulous to exploit.

Plus, I don't see how Chinese recasters would "fill" the void. The cost per bit are relatively low and the only recasters out there focus on high end items like knockoffs of Forge World and other boutique miniature lines.

Having just recently bought some bits for a project, I don't think it will be too hard to hide a bitz shop. The stores I follow only have 1 or 2 boxes worth of bits sets normally. Horde O' Bits is the only one I saw that usually had more and their more recent listings are fairly low.

nkelsch wrote:


There will still be legal bitz dealers and 3rd party companies even with this policy. The market will adjust having to cut and sell bitz off of a higher retail base price. With the increase in bitz prices, there may be more market for 3rd parties making more conversion bitz and not just top sellers like weapons. The market adapts when everyone plays by the rules. Running to recasters isn't the solution and helps no one.

There will be no 'legal' bits dealers...except maybe in Australia, as I dont think I have found trade terms for them yet.

By legal, I mean contractually legal retailers. The current terms for North America and Europe restrict the sale of products from a retailer to another business or from a distributor to a company who parts the kits out. While it wouldnt be a crime, it would be a violation of the contract, and as with most things...ignorance is not an excuse, so just because they didn't know the customer was a bits dealer, it wont nescessarily insulate them against the penalty in the contract.

You still will have individuals who might sell off leftovers from kits that they bought...but most of those will have been picked over for the good stuff, and getting a whole armies worth of bits will be difficult.

Of course, you could be advocating people use grey market goods from people who continue to do business...but that puts the various suppliers at risk to loose their trade contract with GW which could well hurt their livelihood. In any case, all bits purchased after June 15th of this year will be shady at best, or flaunting the contract itself at worst. Considering contracts are what seperate us from anarchy...I would be more concerned about violating contracts as opposed to a Chinese guy...who may not even be breaking any laws in his own country.

The chinese guy isn't breaking any laws in his own country. In China IP is ignored.
You are breaking laws when you import his goods though, it's the reason you don't have cheap knockoff tv's flooding western markets, the copyright law is clear that importing them is a crime.
For personal use is a bit dodgy but iirc it is a crime but one with a low rate of prosecution.

To be fair, I'm not expecting much to change-I feel bad for anyone affected by this, but I just ordered bitz on eBay: no issue. Yeah, I think it's a dick move by GW that will make them look bad, but I don't see anyone who sells bitz actually being terribly affected by it. I could be seriously wrong: bad things MIGHT happen. Then again, it could be impossible to enforce, and everyone will ignore it. GW looks like a bunch of dicks, hurt themselves, and in a week nobody will care. That's actually what I'm expecting to see.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

nkelsch wrote:


There will still be legal bitz dealers and 3rd party companies even with this policy. The market will adjust having to cut and sell bitz off of a higher retail base price. With the increase in bitz prices, there may be more market for 3rd parties making more conversion bitz and not just top sellers like weapons. The market adapts when everyone plays by the rules. Running to recasters isn't the solution and helps no one.

There will be no 'legal' bits dealers...except maybe in Australia, as I dont think I have found trade terms for them yet.

By legal, I mean contractually legal retailers. The current terms for North America and Europe restrict the sale of products from a retailer to another business or from a distributor to a company who parts the kits out. While it wouldnt be a crime, it would be a violation of the contract, and as with most things...ignorance is not an excuse, so just because they didn't know the customer was a bits dealer, it wont nescessarily insulate them against the penalty in the contract.

You still will have individuals who might sell off leftovers from kits that they bought...but most of those will have been picked over for the good stuff, and getting a whole armies worth of bits will be difficult.

Of course, you could be advocating people use grey market goods from people who continue to do business...but that puts the various suppliers at risk to loose their trade contract with GW which could well hurt their livelihood. In any case, all bits purchased after June 15th of this year will be shady at best, or flaunting the contract itself at worst. Considering contracts are what seperate us from anarchy...I would be more concerned about violating contracts as opposed to a Chinese guy...who may not even be breaking any laws in his own country.

So by your logic I will be a shady illegal distributor of bits....time for me to go pay off the local cops to tip me on a bust . Look plain and simple I am ignoring this from GW, come June 16th Battleroadhobbies.com will still be selling bits. Come june 16 2014 I will still be selling bits...do you get where I am heading with this. The way I view it is I provide a service for which the community wants and has a need and I am not going to snuff my customers because GW doesn't like that I am making money. The said thing is they actually make more money because of bits sellers. Ask the other vendors as shows I am at and they will tell you I jump there sales because people buy the bits from me then run over and buy more boxes to use the bits on. I think this is overall silly but it seems more Sean you are an advocate for GW and that's fine, and if someone wants to go tell on me that's fine too as I am adding more 3rd market companies to my store as well, and none of what we sell is recast.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Well I guess this greenlights Chinese recasters to go into overdrive. People may have to put up with longer lead times on shipping but we will still be able to get the bits they want for conversions, they just won't have been produced by GW.

This is pretty much what I expect will happen if GW pushes much harder. Many recasters already branched out into plastic bits on top of the FW items they were already doing, and those bits are insanely low priced.

More parts in resin in the future I guess, because no GW, I will not spend $33 just to get 5 GK backpacks.

And no GW Im not spending $270 + tax for 9 ork kannons.

nkelsch wrote:
Not saying GW isn't hurting themselves, but running to chinese recasters in the name of 'supporting the little guy' who is hurt by this policy doesn't mesh for me. I think there are consumers who don't care about businesses competing fairly in the market and just want cheap or free products regardless who it hurts.

I beg to differ, I think buyers do care more than ever how ethical the company behind the products acts and treats it's respective stakeholders and consumers, if anyone should realise this it should be GW. With all the legal business about attacking authors over the use of Space Marine, all the customer complaints and everything said here on dakka I would expect GW to realise this more than most but if this policy is true then it appears they have learned nothing. Maybe legal action against GW is the only way possibly to get them to see this or maybe they will never learn IDK???

All this shows is that people care and are willing to take action to defend themselves from GW. But what is doubly stupid about this is that the sellers ain't even hurting GW like I said they are most probably helping GW sales.

Do you own a smartphone? The conflict minerals that go into them come from Rwanda and also require gorillas to be killed or moved to mine it.

You buy coke right?
Their subsidiaries shot south American union leaders before.

Car companies were the first to work out the cost of a recall vs the payout for cars that exploded killing families. Do you not own a car?

Google help China whitewash their history. Do you use Yahoo?

In the long run nobody cares, if you want their products you have to live with the fact companies do bad things.

You make a poor argument, liturgies of blood.

Simply non of those things needed to happen. Yeah companies do gak but did any of those things need to happen. Really? No the board members should have been the ones shot not the American union leaders.

I didn't know a lot of those things. I'll be thinking twice before using their services again as should you.

And I don't think GW is forcing children to work in their FineMines, so we may be drifting a little off-topic and into the land of hysteria.

 ceorron wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Not saying GW isn't hurting themselves, but running to chinese recasters in the name of 'supporting the little guy' who is hurt by this policy doesn't mesh for me. I think there are consumers who don't care about businesses competing fairly in the market and just want cheap or free products regardless who it hurts.

I beg to differ, I think buyers do care more than ever how ethical the company behind the products acts and treats it's respective stakeholders and consumers, if anyone should realise this it should be GW. With all the legal business about attacking authors over the use of Space Marine, all the customer complaints and everything said here on dakka I would expect GW to realise this more than most but if this policy is true then it appears they have learned nothing. Maybe legal action against GW is the only way possibly to get them to see this or maybe they will never learn IDK???

All this shows is that people care and are willing to take action to defend themselves from GW. But what is doubly stupid about this is that the sellers ain't even hurting GW like I said they are most probably helping GW sales.

I'd rather give random Chinese recasters my money than a company who constantly strong arms small companies into folding even when they have no legal leg to stand on.

At this point the recasters are starting to look like Robin Hood. I'd rather help some poor guy in a resin shop make ends meet than give GW beans to count towards the next price hike. And if that means GW goes under and someone buys the IP, then good, because I"m sure about 7 billion other people could do a better job with that company.

I'm confused. Are we all moving to China so we can convert minis?

I'm not to hot on that idea if I'm honest.

Well considering the potential hazards of resin

(both the chemicals used to make it, and the risk from the dust when it's set)

and Chinese industrys lack of health/safety especially in 'fringe' occupations by buying from a recaster you may risk the health of 'poor' chinese workers

 ceorron wrote:
You make a poor argument, liturgies of blood.

Simply non of those things needed to happen. Yeah companies do gak but did any of those things need to happen. Really? No the board members should have been the ones shot not the American union leaders.

I didn't know a lot of those things. I'll be thinking twice before using their services again as should you.

If you want ethical products you have to pay a lot more and be very restrictive in who you buy from. If you want to play GW games make peace with their evil or just don't engage with them.
If you don't use a service or product because you're morally outraged by the company who provide it you'll be using very little.

The world is not black and white.

While you're right that GW won't be using children's bones to make the new tau range, I agree that chinese casting might not be up to the health and safety standards of the west.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Well considering the potential hazards of resin

(both the chemicals used to make it, and the risk from the dust when it's set)

Overstated. Plastic dust ain’t much better for you.

 Empchild wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

nkelsch wrote:


There will still be legal bitz dealers and 3rd party companies even with this policy. The market will adjust having to cut and sell bitz off of a higher retail base price. With the increase in bitz prices, there may be more market for 3rd parties making more conversion bitz and not just top sellers like weapons. The market adapts when everyone plays by the rules. Running to recasters isn't the solution and helps no one.

There will be no 'legal' bits dealers...except maybe in Australia, as I dont think I have found trade terms for them yet.

By legal, I mean contractually legal retailers. The current terms for North America and Europe restrict the sale of products from a retailer to another business or from a distributor to a company who parts the kits out. While it wouldnt be a crime, it would be a violation of the contract, and as with most things...ignorance is not an excuse, so just because they didn't know the customer was a bits dealer, it wont nescessarily insulate them against the penalty in the contract.

You still will have individuals who might sell off leftovers from kits that they bought...but most of those will have been picked over for the good stuff, and getting a whole armies worth of bits will be difficult.

Of course, you could be advocating people use grey market goods from people who continue to do business...but that puts the various suppliers at risk to loose their trade contract with GW which could well hurt their livelihood. In any case, all bits purchased after June 15th of this year will be shady at best, or flaunting the contract itself at worst. Considering contracts are what seperate us from anarchy...I would be more concerned about violating contracts as opposed to a Chinese guy...who may not even be breaking any laws in his own country.

So by your logic I will be a shady illegal distributor of bits....time for me to go pay off the local cops to tip me on a bust . Look plain and simple I am ignoring this from GW, come June 16th Battleroadhobbies.com will still be selling bits. Come june 16 2014 I will still be selling bits...do you get where I am heading with this. The way I view it is I provide a service for which the community wants and has a need and I am not going to snuff my customers because GW doesn't like that I am making money. The said thing is they actually make more money because of bits sellers. Ask the other vendors as shows I am at and they will tell you I jump there sales because people buy the bits from me then run over and buy more boxes to use the bits on. I think this is overall silly but it seems more Sean you are an advocate for GW and that's fine, and if someone wants to go tell on me that's fine too as I am adding more 3rd market companies to my store as well, and none of what we sell is recast.

By any logic you would be a shady distributor of bits following the implementation of the new trade terms. Not criminally illegal, but in violation of the terms of the contract. It is quite clearly called out - any company who you (as a business) buy from in order to replenish your stocks is violating their trade terms...whether it is through a retailer, a distributor or some manner of middle men (which would be akin to plastic laundering I guess...but that actually does become somewhat of a crime due to the conspiracy to defraud aspect). While I think the terms are stupid, they are the trade terms and it puts your suppliers at risk of loosing their ability to stock and sell GW products.

Now, I am far from a GW advocate. Quite the contrary to be honest. I care little for their current art direction, their management, their price policies, their IP policies - or for that matter much else that they do. However, the notion that people like nkelsch seem to be pushing that nothing will change...and further seeming to miss the greater ramifications of these new terms is ridiculous. As the terms are written - there will be no more bits businesses...as businesses will have no way to restock without violating the contract. You might have certain things pop up on eBay from individuals who buy a kit for bits and then attempt to sell off the remainder - but that is far and removed from what exists now.

Do I actually think that will happen to that extent? No, I am sure you will still have individuals and companies like yourself who are able to remain stocked up through any number of methods. It becomes a grey market though, something which isn't as reliable as it once was...and not completely on the up and up.

What I do think should happen though is for people like yourself, Neal at the Warstore, whoever might be the talking head from Alliance and all the other distributors, retailers and other outlets to get together and push back. Write an open letter through trade publications like Game Trade and ICv2 to GW stating that you will refuse to do business with GW if they continue to implement these terms. Anything else though will just be a slow and purposeful path towards GW rolling out the 700-800 retail stores which they claim to want to open in the US and using the new terms to shut off the supply of goods to independent retailers as they go.

Again, might be a little bit of paranoia...but someone once said something along the lines of "First they came for the bits dealers, and I did not speak out because I was not a bits dealer..."

What's to stop them rolling those retail stores out anyway?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
What's to stop them rolling those retail stores out anyway?

Money to maintain them .

 liturgies of blood wrote:
What's to stop them rolling those retail stores out anyway?

Competition...

Why buy from a GW store, if you have a local store who sells GW products at a discount. The Warstore offers a discount to instore customers as well as those who buy over the phone. Same with other stores like Miniature Market and for that matter the vast majority of stores I have been to either have flat discounts or some form of loyalty program which allows for a discount.

Since most GW stores also have limited in store gaming potential (and more and more that is the trend for new stores as well) they will not have the draw of gaming either...

So, if they want to move into an area which has a thriving 40K/WFB community...they need to stifle their competition if they would like to actually be successful there. These new terms provide grounds for them to stop trade with the existing company under the guise of violating one of the clauses and allows them to avoid being sued under any number of fair trading laws.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 ceorron wrote:
You make a poor argument, liturgies of blood.

Simply non of those things needed to happen. Yeah companies do gak but did any of those things need to happen. Really? No the board members should have been the ones shot not the American union leaders.

I didn't know a lot of those things. I'll be thinking twice before using their services again as should you.

If you want ethical products you have to pay a lot more and be very restrictive in who you buy from. If you want to play GW games make peace with their evil or just don't engage with them.
If you don't use a service or product because you're morally outraged by the company who provide it you'll be using very little.

The world is not black and white.

Sean while you're right that GW won't be using children's bones to make the new tau range, I agree that chinese casting might not be up to the health and safety standards of the west.

I never said the world was black or white, ethics are all about grey areas. More that I have an appreciation of the different shades and more than I'd (and others) would like to see GW has been appearing all the blacker recently.

But you have a skewed view, simply because somethings arn't black and white isn't an excuse and doesn't mean there isn't a line. What GW should do is at least make sure that it stay the right side of that line. There seems to be willful disregard of this, that is a worrying concern and just as worrying is that GW seems to be letting indicators pass apparently unnoticed.

You know we do lock people up you realise, the world is not a free for all, do anything you like affair.

Should a person be jailed if they commit a murder if there was possible motive, surely that isn't black or white either?

Right.....GW hates independents despite their entire retail setup being designed around the idea of recruiting new hobbyists and shuffling em on down the road to independents to play games/pick up product.

Surely there is NO other reasonable explanation as to why GW doesn't want their kits parted out by their independent retailers to be sold for more than the kits suggested retail price. Surely there are no bits sellers out consistently labeling product as 'damaged in shipping' just to bitz out the kit and get a free replacement from GW while selling off the kit piecemeal. That's OBVIOUSLY impossible as every independent retailer in the world are morally upstanding ethical individuals who would never think of ripping off their suppliers and customers right?

Oh wait....

 Valkyrie wrote:
So how are they going to enforce this insane new policy?

Agreed. Is this even genuine?

Orktavius wrote:
Right.....GW hates independents despite their entire retail setup being designed around the idea of recruiting new hobbyists and shuffling em on down the road to independents to play games/pick up product.

They don’t want customers buying from the LGS. They want customers buying from them. From their perspective LGS’ are necessary but not wanted; something they have to deal with because in a land as huge as the US there’s no other way to get sufficient market penetration with their own stores alone.

You simply cannot be ignorant of the multiple stories of successful LGS’ and how they’re treated both before and after a GW store opens up nearby?

Orktavius wrote:
Oh wait....

Oh wait what? Your post is nonsensical.

 Black Lantern wrote:
Is this even genuine?

It's been confirmed by the US retailers who post here.

Orktavius wrote:
Right.....GW hates independents despite their entire retail setup being designed around the idea of recruiting new hobbyists and shuffling em on down the road to independents to play games/pick up product.

Surely there is NO other reasonable explanation as to why GW doesn't want their kits parted out by their independent retailers to be sold for more than the kits suggested retail price. Surely there are no bits sellers out consistently labeling product as 'damaged in shipping' just to bitz out the kit and get a free replacement from GW while selling off the kit piecemeal. That's OBVIOUSLY impossible as every independent retailer in the world are morally upstanding ethical individuals who would never think of ripping off their suppliers and customers right?

Oh wait....

Ya when it's damaged you have to ship the whole thing back as a retailer but good shot on that one. Also they want more people to buy from them as HBMC said because they make more profit in doing so.