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Rented Tritium wrote:Yeah, going to recasters sends the wrong message. It tells GW that you weren't a customer worth catering to anyway. Now, if chapterhouse et al want to make convenient heads and legs for scifi miniatures, I will be first in line to buy them.

On this point, while well intentioned , I think you are not 100% correct. The point with GW is that they really do not understand or care about their customers. They run a business and even with the Finecrap Fiasco and the economic turbulence - they make enough money to satisfy someone somewhere to keep their practices going.

The company does not handle criticism that well. People have told them (and thousands have whined about multitudes of issues) - getting rid of their Bits Department was not well received by the Customer base. So many years later they have still not re-established it. Probably will not until major issues in management. Point here is without some sort of metrics - in house counts to justify the Bits Department. "Sir we made 100K units of currency and 14% came from the bits department - this justifies keeping it open." Or "we have lost 20% of our customers - possible to recasters in the last year. Partial data - eBay monitoring etc. and some conjecture."

Please keep in mind my sampling/stats are totally examples - without something that indicates proof of sales going to recasters - GW does not care them much less the customers they are losing. My Second Masters Thesis dealt with Transnational Criminal Threats to the U.S. national interests and showed loss/damage/theft/proof of trillions of dollars in multiple areas of society and business (including INTL IP) the results showed apathy on the parts of businessmen and governments to address the issues unless their personal views/lives were directly impacted by criminals.

Because criminals (recasters) do not operate within countries that enforce laws, much less INTL IP laws, it is difficult to address the issues. By going to recasters - it send them the right message - keep doing this and you will make money, because there is a void in the free market system that you fill.

BTW - Like your Avatar.

liturgies of blood wrote:The chinese guy isn't breaking any laws in his own country. In China IP is ignored. You are breaking laws when you import his goods though, it's the reason you don't have cheap knockoff tv's flooding western markets, the copyright law is clear that importing them is a crime. For personal use is a bit dodgy but iirc it is a crime but one with a low rate of prosecution.

While Russia, China and other countries do not enforce (selectively enforce) or do not have INTL IP laws, or laws allow for minor modifications of products made there to encourage criminal activity. Depending on the country - counterfeits goods sold and mailed violate multiple countries laws - false paperwork/statements,etc. for both parties. Yes enforcement is very low - often because it is too much of a hassle to enforce.

China will not extradite its civilians to other countries even when there is overwhelming evidence of a crime. It is seen as a loss of sovereignty to do so. Instead they confiscate the goods, money and sometime toss the criminal into prison - where a better education and life are offered. Russia asks for proof beyond reasonable - and then will still refuse to extradite on grounds of - just because the citizen is Russian. Personal use is the hardest to prove and the hardest to deter. The easiest was to deter the crime is to make the items more readily available, thus cheaper than the cost to manufacture in the first place.

It is sad but some of the Russian and Chinese parts are better than the Forgeworld kits are. My Mother and Father-in-law (not Americans - live in the far east) have bought me GW/FW stuff made in China on thier trips there thinking thats where its made and its way cheaper than what I pay for it.

There are a few re-casters in France and Germany that are pretty good. I bought some bits from the sellers on Ebay - and they turned out to be fake - bright yellow/dark black non-FW Resin. Items were different from the pictures. Ebay does not care, its hard to prosecute a case with the USPS - if the second party is in Europe. Reason after reason....it drives honest people insane. I've never bought from a recaster more than once - that once being unaware/lied to by the seller. I've often cringed at the thought of getting the pieces I want from China - but I just can't do it. No matter how cheap - crime should be avoided whenever possible.

Hell I'd recast my own if I could do it for less time, money, resources to make the squads/units I want. Buy one real one, make the ones I want/need, but I'd be stuck with molds and other crap I don't need and I don't want to be a criminal so I won't do it.

What we need is a change in management for GW - but that's beyond the fans' control.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
What's to stop them rolling those retail stores out anyway?

Competition...

Why buy from a GW store, if you have a local store who sells GW products at a discount. The Warstore offers a discount to instore customers as well as those who buy over the phone. Same with other stores like Miniature Market and for that matter the vast majority of stores I have been to either have flat discounts or some form of loyalty program which allows for a discount.

Since most GW stores also have limited in store gaming potential (and more and more that is the trend for new stores as well) they will not have the draw of gaming either...

So, if they want to move into an area which has a thriving 40K/WFB community...they need to stifle their competition if they would like to actually be successful there. These new terms provide grounds for them to stop trade with the existing company under the guise of violating one of the clauses and allows them to avoid being sued under any number of fair trading laws.

Firstly I'd like to see you win a case on fair trade on this restriction but I don't think you would have a chance. They are not forming a monopoly as it's just like Apple, if they were selling anything other than their own goods exclusively you'd have a shot.
Secondly I don't think GW are worried about competition in the same way you put it.

My local GW caters to a different audience than the local pro-gaming groups who hang out in the FLGS and has a much better community vibe going in it. GW puts a lot of effort into customer service that I've never really seen in any other gaming store plus they do police their members behaviour and make it far friendlier than some other stores.

GW is far better at getting new players in young, they run family days, events for young painters etc, hell they even do birthday parties. I doubt they will be scared off by other stores.
They are not franchises and as such they can take a hit in some stores until they get established.
There was a 2nd GW in my city that was in the worst possible location for them and it kept going for 15 years as an unprofitable enterprise. GW can wait out other games stores.
If they don't have the same space as the guys running weekend tournaments they won't care as they don't do tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ceorron wrote:

But you have a skewed view, simply because somethings arn't black and white isn't an excuse and doesn't mean there isn't a line. What GW should do is at least make sure that it stay the right side of that line. There seems to be willful disregard of this, that is my most worrying concern and just as worrying is that GW seems to be letting indicators pass apparently unnoticed.

You know we do lock people up you realise, the world is not a free for all, do anything you like affair.

Should a person be jailed if they commit a murder if there was possible motive, surely that isn't black or white either?

Murder? I'm talking about the scale of evil in corporate practices, this is NOTHING on what others do. GW have gotten more profitable as they get more business orientated, if you want to change this buy some stock and change the CEO. *Hint* he's the guy with the single largest stake.

 Black Lantern wrote:
Is this even genuine?

It's been confirmed by the US retailers who post here.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Murder? I'm talking about the scale of evil in corporate practices, this is NOTHING on what others do. GW have gotten more profitable as they get more business orientated, if you want to change this buy some stock and change the CEO. *Hint* he's the guy with the single largest stake.

As for scales of evil. In the UK companies are considered by UK law to come under the same rules as people as well as a set of rules that also govern their practice but with my and your argument this is rather insignificant fact.

I have no doubt GW has got more profitable as it has got more business oriented, is this is good decision, i'm not going to repeat myself.

At this rate I won't need to change the CEO, the bad decisions of management there wont be a company left to buy the shares of. Yes GW needs new management, when it is going to get this IDK. Maybe Kirby could do with a more moral management adviser, someone altogether more attuned to the moral compass of the masses. Maybe then GW wont make so many PR blunders and can act in a way that is all the more tactful.

Time will tell for that one.

So your answer to get the guys that haven't changed their stance despite internet complaints and withholding business is to complain on the internet and withhold business?
The only way to change them is by the usual methods to change management in a company, buy shares and boot him out.
Sitting back and waiting until they flop to change won't work.

Yeah they are a company, so what? Is what they are doing illegal or is it just them being over enthusiastic in protecting themselves?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Firstly I'd like to see you win a case on fair trade on this restriction but I don't think you would have a chance. They are not forming a monopoly as it's just like Apple, if they were selling anything other than their own goods exclusively you'd have a shot.

You are aware that fair dealing laws generally have little to do with monopolies...for that matter, most monopoly laws have little to do with actual, honest to goodness monopolies. Just ask Microsoft, they were knocked around for a few hundred million dollars because they had too much of the market share (but no where near a monopoly).

If you read the contract with a close eye for the proper words, you will see terms like "unilateral". That is a key word in most fair dealing statutes which are in place - so GW has it in their minds eye already that they may see suits brought on various fair dealing laws already. Winning them is actually pretty easy though, you would be surprised how many hundreds of those cases are filed each year and how many of them just pay off the plaintiff. Bigger ones, like those brought by governments/regulators are less common - but even there, if the suit is brought...they generally win it.

In this case, if GW were to simply stop trading with someone without cause...then they would loose the case. That is pretty well cut and dry. The unilateral action and a clause to give cause allows them to skirt that issue even if their ulterior motive is in fact to move their own store into town.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Secondly I don't think GW are worried about competition in the same way you put it.

GW is terrified of competition. That is what is the heart of the no online stores (other than their own) clause. That is the heart of the no trading across boarders clause. That is the heart of the Australia embargo. They are terrified of competition, because they generally loose when they actually face competition.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
My local GW caters to a different audience than the local pro-gaming groups who hang out in the FLGS and has a much better community vibe going in it. GW puts a lot of effort into customer service that I've never really seen in any other gaming store plus they do police their members behaviour and make it far friendlier than some other stores.

Enjoy it while it lasts. Most GW stores are going to one man shows and removing game tables except for the purpose of running demo games to sell starter sets. GW is cutting their retail to the bone in an attempt to deal with competition from stores and if you are one of the few stores that still have gaming, it is likely not to last.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
There was a 2nd GW in my city that was in the worst possible location for them and it kept going for 15 years as an unprofitable enterprise. GW can wait out other games stores.
If they don't have the same space as the guys running weekend tournaments they won't care as they don't do tournaments.

They actually don't have the cash reserves that you might thing they do. Most of the locations get cut by the time their lease is up - which generally gives them a couple years tops. You can flip through the old White Dwarf magazines and watch the stores close just as fast as they open and get shuffled into back corners of side street strip malls all the time. Ireland is likely a lot like the UK in that they really do not have any significant competition from anyone...so keep that in mind as you opine as to the vastness of the rest of the world vis a vis GW retail policies.

Everyone uses clauses to limit parallel trade, I was talking about competition on the ground. I'll have to look into the lifetime of some of the GW stores.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

nkelsch wrote:


There will still be legal bitz dealers and 3rd party companies even with this policy. The market will adjust having to cut and sell bitz off of a higher retail base price. With the increase in bitz prices, there may be more market for 3rd parties making more conversion bitz and not just top sellers like weapons. The market adapts when everyone plays by the rules. Running to recasters isn't the solution and helps no one.

There will be no 'legal' bits dealers...except maybe in Australia, as I dont think I have found trade terms for them yet.

By legal, I mean contractually legal retailers.

This is where we disagree.

I can walk into GW today, buy 5 dakkajets, take them home, cut them up and sell the pieces on eBay. When I buy something retail, it becomes my property and I can do what I wish with it. And I am a legal dealer be it a side-hobby, small home business or large scale. The issue is larger scale I go, the harder it may be to make it profitable.

On the flip side, Let's say I can no longer get the bitz I want. I can go to GW as a hobbyist and buy a full kit, take the few bitz I want and sell the rest on ebay potentially recouping my costs. Again, I would be a legal bitz dealer.

People who buy stuff retail are simply not under any trade agreement what so ever. I can see why someone would want to have a trade account because they can save a ton of money, but it doesn't mean bitz become illegal... simply trade partners and people who buy through distributors who exchange their rights for a discount of retail.

I didn't say nothing will change, but I don't think we will see everything go 100% away with ebay takedown notices and such. I can see bitz becoming more expensive, I can see kits which were a waste of effort for 3rd parties to make due to how plentiful the GW plastic bitz were suddenly be cost effective to make. I feel like the market will find the profitable path post-policy implementation.

As for retailers who intend to defraud their trade account agreement, that is on them to risk and potentially corner the market, or have their business cut off. That is on them to choose to do or not. I as a customer would never ask them to risk their livelihood for me. I also will not consider them a saint or doing charity work as if they were bringing free food to the hungry... it is a business and they are doing it for money.

nkelsch wrote:

This is where we disagree.

I can walk into GW today, buy 5 dakkajets, take them home, cut them up and sell the pieces on eBay. When I buy something retail, it becomes my property and I can do what I wish with it. And I am a legal dealer be it a side-hobby, small home business or large scale. The issue is larger scale I go, the harder it may be to make it profitable.

You may disagree - but that does not change the terms of the contract. The person that sells you the kits to cut up and sell on eBay can not sell you the kits based on the terms of the agreement. Whether they sell them to you at full retail or at a discount. While you haven't entered into the agreement with GW...all sources that you might use have. If they do not know that you are in fact a bits dealer, and somehow GW finds out that they are the source of your bits...then they are potentially subject to having their trade account cancelled as by the vary nature of what you are doing...you are not an individual rather a business.

It is called out quite clearly in the contract - so...the end result is the same, no "legal" bit dealers after the date that the terms go into effect. None, there is no way that it can happen without violating the terms of the agreement. The individual bit dealers may not violate the term, but no one can sell to them without violating the terms.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

This is where we disagree.

I can walk into GW today, buy 5 dakkajets, take them home, cut them up and sell the pieces on eBay. When I buy something retail, it becomes my property and I can do what I wish with it. And I am a legal dealer be it a side-hobby, small home business or large scale. The issue is larger scale I go, the harder it may be to make it profitable.

You may disagree - but that does not change the terms of the contract. The person that sells you the kits to cut up and sell on eBay can not sell you the kits based on the terms of the agreement. Whether they sell them to you at full retail or at a discount. While you haven't entered into the agreement with GW...all sources that you might use have. If they do not know that you are in fact a bits dealer, and somehow GW finds out that they are the source of your bits...then they are potentially subject to having their trade account cancelled as by the vary nature of what you are doing...you are not an individual rather a business.

It is called out quite clearly in the contract - so...the end result is the same, no "legal" bit dealers after the date that the terms go into effect. None, there is no way that it can happen without violating the terms of the agreement. The individual bit dealers may not violate the term, but no one can sell to them without violating the terms.

I can buy directly from GW retail, and do whatever I want with the parts. Like I said... there is no such thing as a contract for a retail customer. I can re-sell my property in any form for whatever reason I choose. So there are legal bitz vendors. Bitz are not illegal... Just people using their trade discount to gain access to discounted models to cut up to bitz are.

Are you saying GW will refuse to sell me models at retail price if I walk into their store and hand them retail cash or that it is illegal for me to buy those models, cut them up and ebay the parts? Making blanket statements that all bitz on eBay will somehow be 'illegal' simply isn't true. People can always re-sell their personal property.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
There will be no 'legal' bits dealers...except maybe in Australia, as I dont think I have found trade terms for them yet..

As I mentioned earlier, the rules about selling out of packaging have been in the Oz terms of trade since at least the 90s. Fairly sure the clause about only selling to customers was also in there back then.

I was the first plastic bits seller online. In Australia. With no trade account.


Putting the US on the same footing as the rest of the world will have minimal impact on the bits trade.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Anything else though will just be a slow and purposeful path towards GW rolling out the 700-800 retail stores which they claim to want to open in the US and using the new terms to shut off the supply of goods to independent retailers as they go.

I would be really interested in your source for this statement. I dont believe GW wants to open hundreds of new stores in the US. I seriously doubt they have the resources to open more than a few per year. Their stores cannot compete with local game stores that sell a diversity of products.

This may have been a grand pipe dream of GW at one time but their crummy little mall stores do not generate enough revenue and I believe they have closed quite a few of them.

JWhex wrote:
I would be really interested in your source for this statement. I dont believe GW wants to open hundreds of new stores in the US. I seriously doubt they have the resources to open more than a few per year. Their stores cannot compete with local game stores that sell a diversity of products.

This may have been a grand pipe dream of GW at one time but their crummy little mall stores do not generate enough revenue and I believe they have closed quite a few of them.

It's from the GW Financial Statement a couple of years back, IIRC.

nkelsch wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

This is where we disagree.

I can walk into GW today, buy 5 dakkajets, take them home, cut them up and sell the pieces on eBay. When I buy something retail, it becomes my property and I can do what I wish with it. And I am a legal dealer be it a side-hobby, small home business or large scale. The issue is larger scale I go, the harder it may be to make it profitable.

You may disagree - but that does not change the terms of the contract. The person that sells you the kits to cut up and sell on eBay can not sell you the kits based on the terms of the agreement. Whether they sell them to you at full retail or at a discount. While you haven't entered into the agreement with GW...all sources that you might use have. If they do not know that you are in fact a bits dealer, and somehow GW finds out that they are the source of your bits...then they are potentially subject to having their trade account cancelled as by the vary nature of what you are doing...you are not an individual rather a business.

It is called out quite clearly in the contract - so...the end result is the same, no "legal" bit dealers after the date that the terms go into effect. None, there is no way that it can happen without violating the terms of the agreement. The individual bit dealers may not violate the term, but no one can sell to them without violating the terms.

I can buy directly from GW retail, and do whatever I want with the parts. Like I said... there is no such thing as a contract for a retail customer. I can re-sell my property in any form for whatever reason I choose. So there are legal bitz vendors. Bitz are not illegal... Just people using their trade discount to gain access to discounted models to cut up to bitz are.

Are you saying GW will refuse to sell me models at retail price if I walk into their store and hand them retail cash or that it is illegal for me to buy those models, cut them up and ebay the parts? Making blanket statements that all bitz on eBay will somehow be 'illegal' simply isn't true. People can always re-sell their personal property.

Retailers are permitted to resell GAMES WORKSHOP products to Consumers only. Retailers are prohibited from reselling GAMES WORKSHOP products to other Retailers, distributors or any other non-Consumer customers.

An independent retailer is forbidden from selling to you if your intent is to resell the product as you would not be a consumer - but another business.

 insaniak wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
There will be no 'legal' bits dealers...except maybe in Australia, as I dont think I have found trade terms for them yet..

As I mentioned earlier, the rules about selling out of packaging have been in the Oz terms of trade since at least the 90s. Fairly sure the clause about only selling to customers was also in there back then.

I was the first plastic bits seller online. In Australia. With no trade account.


Putting the US on the same footing as the rest of the world will have minimal impact on the bits trade.

Yes and no. Like I said, I assume that many of the terms are part of their grander scheme to roll out 700-800 retail stores in North America. That is a lot of stores and would require them to be in direct competition with existing game stores, something which they do not handle well.

I do not think that the bits market will dry up over night - but it does change the nature of things. Because it is impossible for bits dealers to obtain stock without violating the terms of the trade agreement - it makes anyone they do purchase from a potential target. Personally - I wouldn't feel comfortable placing them in that sort of bind especially since the vast majority of their suppliers are aware of what existing bits dealers are doing (so claiming ignorance would be difficult). You will see many of them cease though, The Warstore's Battlewagon Bits for example will be gone. I am sure there are plenty of others as well who are either tied to a retail outlet or use a distributor to source their product.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JWhex wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Anything else though will just be a slow and purposeful path towards GW rolling out the 700-800 retail stores which they claim to want to open in the US and using the new terms to shut off the supply of goods to independent retailers as they go.

I would be really interested in your source for this statement. I dont believe GW wants to open hundreds of new stores in the US. I seriously doubt they have the resources to open more than a few per year. Their stores cannot compete with local game stores that sell a diversity of products.

This may have been a grand pipe dream of GW at one time but their crummy little mall stores do not generate enough revenue and I believe they have closed quite a few of them.

Actually it was a news article where Kirby was interviewed...probably the last 4 months or so. I will need to poke around to find the exact source though...unless someone else has it handy.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/18a3b430-6188-11e2-82cd-00144feab49a.html

“North America is going very well,” said Mr Kirby. “We’re looking at 700-800 stores in the US in the extreme long term and we’ve got 80 at the moment with plans to open 1-20 stores per year.”

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
I do not think that the bits market will dry up over night - but it does change the nature of things. Because it is impossible for bits dealers to obtain stock without violating the terms of the trade agreement - it makes anyone they do purchase from a potential target.

Unless they're buying directly from GW, as I was for at least haf of my stock.

Not as profitable, but doable.

it would be interesting if GW tried to enact an end user license agreement where you may not transfer their product to another person. some software licenses are like that (at least some enterprise software, unsure of consumer software)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or in the case of ordering from GW web site, having a Terms and Conditions which you must agree to that outline that you may not resell the component parts of their kits.

 judgedoug wrote:
Or in the case of ordering from GW web site, having a Terms and Conditions which you must agree to that outline that you may not resell the component parts of their kits.

I really, really hope GW does not read these forums, because you know they will take that idea and run with it.

Anyway, GW can refuse to sell their product to anyone they wish for any reason they wish (within certain limits). I won't be surprised if GW has a database of names that are blackballed from purchasing from them (either GW stores or GW website).

 insaniak wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
I do not think that the bits market will dry up over night - but it does change the nature of things. Because it is impossible for bits dealers to obtain stock without violating the terms of the trade agreement - it makes anyone they do purchase from a potential target.

Unless they're buying directly from GW, as I was for at least haf of my stock.

Not as profitable, but doable.

But never the less this will effect the market. And it will raise the prices on Ebay and other places to a point that only the hardcore is going to convert using GW bits. The revenue streaming process continues.

Consumers are capable of reselling thier personal property.

And GW's website has no such terms... and GW stores have no such terms. I can buy from GW directly paying retail and I have breached no terms.

And the bitz seller is breaking no rules, has no contracts with GW and therefor is legal. Now retailers may not want to risk selling to them but that is a different issue. This really targets people using their MSRP discount to get cheap models, break them open and then sell the individual parts.

GW website terms of service:
4 Ownership of Products
4.1 You will become the owner of the Products when they have been delivered to you.
4.2 Once Products have been delivered to you they will be held at your risk and we will not be liable for their use, loss or destruction.

Looks like they become my property without strings attached and no obligation as soon as I buy them retail from their webstore. I have no contract and am not bound to any limits with what I do with the item once bought and delivered.

Unless, as stated previously, you sign a EULA everytime you make a purchase. I think it would be impossible to make that stick in a court, but I certainly don't have "spots" money or visibility to defend it.

nkelsch wrote:
Consumers are capable of reselling thier personal property.

And GW's website has no such terms... and GW stores have no such terms. I can buy from GW directly paying retail and I have breached no terms.

And the bitz seller is breaking no rules, has no contracts with GW and therefor is legal. Now retailers may not want to risk selling to them but that is a different issue. This really targets people using their MSRP discount to get cheap models, break them open and then sell the individual parts.

GW website terms of service:
4 Ownership of Products
4.1 You will become the owner of the Products when they have been delivered to you.
4.2 Once Products have been delivered to you they will be held at your risk and we will not be liable for their use, loss or destruction.

Looks like they become my property without strings attached and no obligation as soon as I buy them retail from their webstore. I have no contract and am not bound to any limits with what I do with the item once bought and delivered.

So what is to stop Neal from making personal purchases from his store with his "employee" discount, then selling all of the bits on ebay as just Neal and not as some form of corporate entity?

As you say, he's not a retailer if he's selling as an individual. He's paying out of personal pocket, not company money.

And banning online sales does not help B&M stores, as many of those stores had online sales as part of their income. Nor will banning bits.

If I didn't already have a decent paying job, I might bother with buying everything at my regular 30% off and do bits on ebay myself. Alas, it's a lot of work for meh pay unless you can do the volume that HoB does.

And again, if HoB and others have to buy at 30% off instead of 40%, they'll just increase bits prices 10% to compensate, which is by and large not that much, and the world will continue.

I do find it funny that you keep saying "buy retail" when really no one in the US should be paying retail for anything other than perhaps finecast and other direct only items.

Also, there is no way that bits selling eats into GW sales. No one is buying a $50 box of termies just for 5 hammers and shields.

 Aerethan wrote:
So what is to stop Neal from making personal purchases from his store with his "employee" discount, then selling all of the bits on ebay as just Neal and not as some form of corporate entity?

Aside from the mess it would make of his taxes and business records, you mean?

Also, there is no way that bits selling eats into GW sales. No one is buying a $50 box of termies just for 5 hammers and shields.

But in my eyes this is not about what is or is not eating into GW sales. It is about the control of all current and potential revenue sources.
Bits are a revenue source. This is all about control. This action could have been done anytime since the end of 07 when they closed down the bits department. Why now? Because they need the money, by any means possible. It not only a war against their own customer base, it is war against the cottage industry.

 insaniak wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
So what is to stop Neal from making personal purchases from his store with his "employee" discount, then selling all of the bits on ebay as just Neal and not as some form of corporate entity?

Aside from the mess it would make of his taxes and business records, you mean?

I didn't say he wouldn't have to work for it, but assuming he was willing to go thru it all...

Devils advocate.

It doesn't have to be Neal himself, any business could be selling GW for whatever markup they want really. I'm not aware of any trade terms that say LGS' have to charge msrp for GW products. There are a few brands out there (SKB cases being one, Apple being another) that specify to their retailers that they cannot discount those products beyond $X, which is usually 0. I'm not aware of GW having such terms, nor would I imagine any company accept them.

 Aerethan wrote:
I didn't say he wouldn't have to work for it, but assuming he was willing to go thru it all...

It's not a matter of 'working' for it. Unless you mean on the chain gang, when he goes to prison for tax fraud on account of running half of his business outside the actual business...

I don'thow big the market on re-casters is, but i think that this is more a boon for those small companies that make non-GW parts.
If getting parts from GW is difficult there are enough other paths to take using "non-space marine" arms, heads, legs etcetera

 Aerethan wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Consumers are capable of reselling thier personal property.

And GW's website has no such terms... and GW stores have no such terms. I can buy from GW directly paying retail and I have breached no terms.

And the bitz seller is breaking no rules, has no contracts with GW and therefor is legal. Now retailers may not want to risk selling to them but that is a different issue. This really targets people using their MSRP discount to get cheap models, break them open and then sell the individual parts.

GW website terms of service:
4 Ownership of Products
4.1 You will become the owner of the Products when they have been delivered to you.
4.2 Once Products have been delivered to you they will be held at your risk and we will not be liable for their use, loss or destruction.

Looks like they become my property without strings attached and no obligation as soon as I buy them retail from their webstore. I have no contract and am not bound to any limits with what I do with the item once bought and delivered.

So what is to stop Neal from making personal purchases from his store with his "employee" discount, then selling all of the bits on ebay as just Neal and not as some form of corporate entity?

As you say, he's not a retailer if he's selling as an individual. He's paying out of personal pocket, not company money.

And banning online sales does not help B&M stores, as many of those stores had online sales as part of their income. Nor will banning bits.

If I didn't already have a decent paying job, I might bother with buying everything at my regular 30% off and do bits on ebay myself. Alas, it's a lot of work for meh pay unless you can do the volume that HoB does.

And again, if HoB and others have to buy at 30% off instead of 40%, they'll just increase bits prices 10% to compensate, which is by and large not that much, and the world will continue.

I do find it funny that you keep saying "buy retail" when really no one in the US should be paying retail for anything other than perhaps finecast and other direct only items.

Also, there is no way that bits selling eats into GW sales. No one is buying a $50 box of termies just for 5 hammers and shields.

you mean whats to stop him from doing it when/if GW find out that his company is supplying the models to him and he then resells them....
Companies cannot sell the models to someone who is going to on sell it or lose their trade account..

GW can't actually legally enforce this, the only thing they can do is decide to stop selling to the FLGS, which would be a stupid move for GW

 AntomanElven wrote:
GW can't actually legally enforce this, the only thing they can do is decide to stop selling to the FLGS, which would be a stupid move for GW

Can't legally enforce this? Please explain?

 AntomanElven wrote:
GW can't actually legally enforce this, the only thing they can do is decide to stop selling to the FLGS, which would be a stupid move for GW

How is them not selling to the store GW not acting on their trade agreement?