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 pretre wrote:

Except that it does stop export to consumers:

C. POLICY REGARDING DOMESTIC SALES ONLY
North American Retailers are only authorized to resell GAMES WORKSHOP products domestically in their respective countries of origin. Accordingly, United States Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of the United States. Similarly, Canadian Retailers are prohibited from exporting GAMES WORKSHOP products for purposes resale to Consumers located outside of Canada. Foreign sales of GAMES WORKSHOP products by Retailers can be disruptive to GAMES WORKSHOP’S vertical distribution networks in other countries.

I underlined the part I'm talking about. As long as the person in the other country is not reselling, you're golden.

The teeth as always is the threat to cut off your supply of GW products.

Except the people, as we said, who run bits stores, don't buy directly from GW for the most part. Those that do will fall out, those that don't don't care. See EmpChild's posts on the subject.

The first sale is GW to anyone (distributor, retailer...). They then resell the product in a retail environment. A consumer is not a business - they are the end user. If they meant resale to business - they would have used that terminology like they did here:

Retailers are permitted to resell GAMES WORKSHOP products to Consumers only. Retailers are prohibited from reselling GAMES WORKSHOP products to other Retailers, distributors or any other non-Consumer customers.

I have seen his posts, but to be honest - the mud hasn't hit the fan and it is easy for Bob the GW supplier to say...sure, we will continue to supply you right now. When the terms go into effect and he has to consider loosing his supplier, he may end up changing his position. Even if some continue, I would imagine half will probably loose their suppliers and that dramatic drop in supply will cause a corresponding increase in price (or just create a vacuum where people are waiting to get choice bits even longer than now).

@Insaniak: Very true, making the later sentences (and the whole thing) even sillier.

I retract my point about the international sales. The rest remains.

Sorry, as a layman - and I've looked through the last few pages and read the Sean/Insaniak/pretre discussion - what is the result of Games-Workshops new policy, and how is it looking to effect the hope/availability?

If anyone could summarise, as I'm still confused, that would be great.

- No Internet Sales for Canada
- No sales by retailers to people outside the country the retailer is in.
- No sales of GW kits outside of the packaging (I.e. No Bits)

 pretre wrote:
The rest remains.

Which rest?

There isn't much more rest left - other than the hope that bits suppliers will continue to be able to get a supply of goods following the implementation of the new terms.

That is all it is is a hope. Right now, based on the terms as they are written - they will not continue to get their products (based on the B2B clause of the contract). Companies like Battlewagon Bits (The Warstore), Spikey Bits (FTW Games) and others are done - no questions on that...they have trade accounts with GW. The others will be relying on a supply who puts their livelihood at risk by selling them their product, something which I can't imagine will not impact the market at all. Considering that those are 2 of the top three listed companies for "gamesworkshop bits" (and other versions like warhammer bits, 40k bits...) I would say that that will be a significant impact even if no other companies are impacted.


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 Just Dave wrote:
Sorry, as a layman - and I've looked through the last few pages and read the Sean/Insaniak/pretre discussion - what is the result of Games-Workshops new policy, and how is it looking to effect the hope/availability?

If anyone could summarise, as I'm still confused, that would be great.

If you are in the UK (as it would seem) and use primarily UK/EU sources - no change as these terms are for North American retailers only.

 pretre wrote:
- No Internet Sales for Canada
- No sales by retailers to people outside the country the retailer is in.
- No sales of GW kits outside of the packaging (I.e. No Bits)

Wow. Thanks for the summary, pretre, much appreciated. Sounds pretty nasty for non-GW stores.

I heard Wayland games is going to try and create a "Union" to try and negotiate with GW.

Honestly, that dosen't seem like a terrible idea, although I don't think it will work.

From a thread on /tg/ at 4Chan yesterday:

“You should be buying from your LGS anyway!”
“I’m Australian. Feth you.”

Made me chuckle.

 Happygrunt wrote:
I heard Wayland games is going to try and create a "Union" to try and negotiate with GW.

Honestly, that dosen't seem like a terrible idea, although I don't think it will work.

Provided that they had enough clout behind them, and the will to follow through with things - it would. If the half dozen or so big companies who make up the majority of the current distance selling were to stop ordering GW products for a month, it would get their attention. Actions like that though can hurt the retailer, but anything short of that would likely be ignored by GW's management.

 Happygrunt wrote:
I heard Wayland games is going to try and create a "Union" to try and negotiate with GW.

There is only one Lord of the Retail, Wayland, and he... does not... share... power.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
I heard Wayland games is going to try and create a "Union" to try and negotiate with GW.

Honestly, that dosen't seem like a terrible idea, although I don't think it will work.

Provided that they had enough clout behind them, and the will to follow through with things - it would. If the half dozen or so big companies who make up the majority of the current distance selling were to stop ordering GW products for a month, it would get their attention. Actions like that though can hurt the retailer, but anything short of that would likely be ignored by GW's management.

So who would join Wayland? The likes of Frontline gaming and The War Store?

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
I heard Wayland games is going to try and create a "Union" to try and negotiate with GW.

Honestly, that dosen't seem like a terrible idea, although I don't think it will work.

Provided that they had enough clout behind them, and the will to follow through with things - it would. If the half dozen or so big companies who make up the majority of the current distance selling were to stop ordering GW products for a month, it would get their attention. Actions like that though can hurt the retailer, but anything short of that would likely be ignored by GW's management.

So who would join Wayland? The likes of Frontline gaming and The War Store?

Wayland is the big one in Europe as I understand it. The War Store (and their attached distributor), Miniature Market, FRP (and their attached distributor), maybe a larger representative from Australia (The Combat Company I think is good sized). I would have said MiniWar Gaming as well for Canada - though, well - they have already decided to stop buying GW products. I know there are several other stores which deal online and do a substantial amount of business in GW products (or have a dog in the fight in terms of their bits business) - but that would probably account for 10-15% of the sales in North America and whatever impact it might be in Australia and the UK/EU (less connected to their markets - but fairly confident based on what I know about the US market).

Honestly though, any company who feels they can afford to drop GW products would help the cause. It would need to be somewhat coordinated, and it would help if there wasn't a specific warning to GW. I wouldn't even approach them to negotiate terms until it had gone a couple weeks without an order and the management started to get rattled about boxes piling up in the warehouses (perhaps just prior to the close of the FY as that would cause the stock holdovers to need to be reported in their annual report - which would cause share holders to look at what might be odd a bit more than they would normally).

 Breotan wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
I heard Wayland games is going to try and create a "Union" to try and negotiate with GW.

There is only one Lord of the Retail, Wayland, and he... does not... share... power.

It gets easier and easier to compare GW to Villians

Hi my names 5 Deadly I’ve been GW free since 2004.
I know it’s a hard habit to Kick. I would find myself at a local hobby shop… standing in front of the Game Workshop rack… trying hard not to give in, not to buckle under the weight of buying that new plastic kit…
“I’ve got enough models” I’d tell myself “so many unpainted models” so I switch to Bits buys… short quick purchases… it’d give me my fix… started out simple a Sword here, a Head there, “I’ll just make some INQ28” I’d tell myself, helping to relieve the guilt. Hiding my purchases from my family in shame.
But since Games Workshops complete ban of bits sale I’ve truly kicked the habit. I’m free… No more late night warstore surfing for that ultimate conversion… hoping necrons would get an opening in the bits department…
I’m free from the tyranny of King George III, I mean Games Workshop….
I know other companies don’t have the level of depth or awesome backstories. But if we can get one of these companies to survive and thrive for more than a decade they might.
My Names 5 Deadly I’m GW free and every day is a gift now, that why they call it “the present”…

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
*claps*

Yay! Solo is here!

Listen man, I say this as a friend. The first couple of times he did his thing and showed up into a thread and dropped a big stinky turd on it, it was his fault. But all those subsequent times that you read his "postings" instead of ignoring him kind were yours

There's no rule against dropping childlike strawmen into a thread over and over again and unceasingly providing nearly 100% noise to 0% signal. The only remedy is pretending there is no such person, which I heartily recommend

 Ouze wrote:
There's no rule against dropping childlike strawmen into a thread over and over again and unceasingly providing nearly 100% noise to 0% signal. The only remedy is pretending there is no such person, which I heartily recommend

Yes but he does it with such gusto and such wild oblivious abandon. It’s so much fun!

Well, fair enough.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/03/you-bought-it-you-own-it-supreme-court-victory-common-sense-and-owners-rights

Applies to copyrighted works, but, [...]

"This case, Kirtsaeng v. Wiley, specifically concerned the re-sale of textbooks in the U.S. The first sale doctrine, described in section 109 of the U.S. Copyright Act, gives people the right to resell, lend, or give away the works that they’ve bought, even if those works contain copyrighted elements. Textbook publisher Wiley claimed that this doctrine only applies to goods that are manufactured in the U.S., and that the defendant, Supap Kirtsaeng, was infringing its copyright by purchasing books at a reduced rate in his native Thailand and selling them below list price in the States."

"we hold that the 'first sale' doctrine applies to copies of a copyrighted work lawfully made abroad." - Opinion of the US Supreme Court

First sale doctrine doesn't apply here, like, at all.

You're free to buy a kit for full retail from GWS and do whatever you like with it. We're talking about a change in the US terms of trade, just as it says in the topic - GWS is free to put further restrictions upon who they sell to at a discount under a trade account, and the retailer is free not to enter into a contract with them.

 TedNugent wrote:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/03/you-bought-it-you-own-it-supreme-court-victory-common-sense-and-owners-rights

Applies to copyrighted works, but, [...]

"This case, Kirtsaeng v. Wiley, specifically concerned the re-sale of textbooks in the U.S. The first sale doctrine, described in section 109 of the U.S. Copyright Act, gives people the right to resell, lend, or give away the works that they’ve bought, even if those works contain copyrighted elements. Textbook publisher Wiley claimed that this doctrine only applies to goods that are manufactured in the U.S., and that the defendant, Supap Kirtsaeng, was infringing its copyright by purchasing books at a reduced rate in his native Thailand and selling them below list price in the States."

"we hold that the 'first sale' doctrine applies to copies of a copyrighted work lawfully made abroad." - Opinion of the US Supreme Court

It has nothing to do with this though. If you buy a GW kit you can resell it and break it apart and resell it to your heart's content. If, however, you bought that kit from a GW trade account, GW now has written in to their terms that they can stop selling to you if you do. If you are a retailer yourself but bought the kit from someone who has a trade account rather than from a GW trade account, the person you are buying from can have their account canceled. If you bought from GW directly, GW can, if they want, refuse you service if you decide to buy 20 boxes of X each month if they believe you are using it to sell bits (or for any other reason).

It has nothing to do with copyright or first sale doctrine. Once you've bought something you can do whatever the hell you want with it, the problem is that depending on where and how you bought the thing, GW may stop doing business with you or your supplier if you do resell it and they are within their rights to stop doing business with you just as you are within your rights to resell it.

I read this thread from start to finish. Many of the comments that have been made are being made with incomplete knowledge of the new GW trade policies. The distribution side of things has not been mentioned. There are 3 independent distributors of GW product in the US. The distribution documents state that independent distributors will not be able to sell to those retailers and others that GW says are breaking the trade policies. This includes the selling of bits, and maintaining an online shopping cart. GW is saying that they will enforce those provisions by not allowing the independent distributors to sell to those retailers, bits sellers and others that do not follow the GW trade policies. If the independent distributors get caught selling to those that violate the GW trade terms, then they will loose their distribution contracts.
Here is the link to those documents:

The distribution policy:

http://www.e-figures.com/PDF/PDF-GamesWorkshop/GW_2013_Distributor_Policy.pdf

and the retailer policy:

http://www.e-figures.com/PDF/PDF-GamesWorkshop/Games_Workshop_2013_RETAILER_POLICY.pdf

Southernbabe wrote:
GW is saying that they will enforce those provisions by not allowing the independent distributors to sell to those retailers, bits sellers and others that do not follow the GW trade policies. If the independent distributors get caught selling to those that violate the GW trade terms, then they will loose their distribution contracts.

If GW thinks they can bully distributors - distributors they need for an area and population the size of the US - then they really don't know what they're getting themselves into.

Southern babe your posting efigures policy agreement do you work for them?

@Empchild -- no. I found it in a search and thought it appropriate to this discussion. I have lurked on the Dakka Dakka forums for a long time without joining.

It is posted as news on the front page of their site...that is why I skipped from speculation to assurance regarding distribution policies.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Southernbabe wrote:
GW is saying that they will enforce those provisions by not allowing the independent distributors to sell to those retailers, bits sellers and others that do not follow the GW trade policies. If the independent distributors get caught selling to those that violate the GW trade terms, then they will loose their distribution contracts.

If GW thinks they can bully distributors - distributors they need for an area and population the size of the US - then they really don't know what they're getting themselves into.

That depends on if the distributors are in a position of power and can play hard ball. If GW is a big part of any of their businesses then they may not risk it, they may find that a large chunk 10-20% of their sales would disappear if they don't sign on rather than the 1-2% that would go from the bitsellers and suspected bit sellers.

If you're going to have to fire 50 guys from your company to attempt to make some random gamers happy, I'd rather 50 guys don't end up unemployed.

To be pretty blunt, none of these changes should come as a suprise to any good business man. The bitz policy is in force in the UK at least (not sure on Europe), the international sales ban is in force in UK EU already and the no shopping cart is in force in the USA for the past ten years. Mini wargaming, to use as a example should have expected and planned for the shopping cart ban to come into force and the retailers in US should have planned for the international sales ban, there is preceedent already there for the changes in the T&C's.



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 liturgies of blood wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Southernbabe wrote:
GW is saying that they will enforce those provisions by not allowing the independent distributors to sell to those retailers, bits sellers and others that do not follow the GW trade policies. If the independent distributors get caught selling to those that violate the GW trade terms, then they will loose their distribution contracts.

If GW thinks they can bully distributors - distributors they need for an area and population the size of the US - then they really don't know what they're getting themselves into.

That depends on if the distributors are in a position of power and can play hard ball. If GW is a big part of any of their businesses then they may not risk it, they may find that a large chunk 10-20% of their sales would disappear if they don't sign on rather than the 1-2% that would go from the bitsellers and suspected bit sellers.

If you're going to have to fire 50 guys from your company to attempt to make some random gamers happy, I'd rather 50 guys don't end up unemployed.

I agree with that, a lot of companies cannot afford to lose a large sales revenue, and seeing as GW is one of the biggest hobby manufacturers this may well be the case.

In regards to the comment before about Wayland Games wanting to create a 'union', it seems more to me like a publicity stunt rather then anything meaningful, after the malestrom debacle there isnt many UK suppliers, IMO, (who are also their competitors) who would want to 'partner' with Waylands, as for international stores 'partnering' with them I cant see the point as the UK entity is totally different to the US entity in terms of everything really.

Wow, confirmed. The reasons behind the decision are not the greatest. Same reasoning as always

MarkyMark wrote:
To be pretty blunt, none of these changes should come as a suprise to any good business man. The bitz policy is in force in the UK at least (not sure on Europe), the international sales ban is in force in UK EU already and the no shopping cart is in force in the USA for the past ten years. Mini wargaming, to use as a example should have expected and planned for the shopping cart ban to come into force and the retailers in US should have planned for the international sales ban, there is preceedent already there for the changes in the T&C's.

the loss of the cart isnt the major problem, thats been worked around for 10 years now and can easily be done. its the no shipping outside your countries borders, that tends to make a hash of it. add to that the sad and pathetic reasoning that in reality is a total joke. Add to that, as he says the condescending way that 'GW online store is the only really safe and secure way to do online sales.' i mean WHAT? dont trust amazon, etc those guys are shady as come to us at GW? i mean come on haha

No no, you cant sell online at all now, period.