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Or if you're WarOne, it's like a 20 minute drive...

I'll have to ask my FLGS how he goes about getting his product.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

I think you misunderstand the model.

The one man GW store are there to generate new customers and create brand presence.

As customers get intergrated into the hobby they are exposed to more common knowledge of discounts, independent stores with playing space and of clubs. All of these things allow the customer to develop at his own pace and add to the existing community, leaving GW to concentrate on new customers.

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product. Generally speaking online stores have gutted High/Main Street locations of the majority of specialist shops; I mean have you tried to by a decent book or album recently, I don't mind paying a premium to get it convieniently but its pretty difficult outside of a big city here. The overriding desire for massively discounted product is just as true in wargaming but this would ultimately neuter new player generation as it stands at the moment, or at least one very important strand of it from GWs perspective.

The arguement that GW is trying to prevent independent games stores always makes me laugh as if this was a goal it would be so easy to achieve it would have happens a decade ago.

You really misunderstand GWs stance versus the independenant game stores and how they want to operate going forward.

Open upna one man store as a factory for turning out new gamers. Bilk them for for their large initial purchases, rulebooks, paint sets, starter boxes, battallions... Push them off on a local store or club after a few months when their spending slows down, repeat.

They would eliminate the independant stores entirely if they could. They cant in places like the US though where they do not have the capital to roll out their factory stores across the country...not now, especially not 10 years ago.

The whole one man store thing which works in "conjunction" with local stores is a myth. If you talk to store owners, most gamers spend more in their first 3-6 months then they do in the next 3 years. Once GW has used them up and they start to become savvy to other products and prcies...GW wants to get rid of them

I don't agree.

True taking the initial spend is attractive but why turn you back on repeat business after that? It make no sense and is contrary to all commonly held goals of running a company. Repeat business even if smaller than the existing rush drives turnover and GW is all about turnover and not profit as commonly assumed.

Now we at both conjecturing on this but I would suggest the UK would hold up as a example of what it is possible where GW pushes its model as much as possible. Here there is a GW in most large towns and above and yet independent store exist aplenty as do the most of the biggest independent retailers. If GW don't establish a monopoly of the market here under favourable circumstances then why would they suddenly decide North America is the place to give it a spin?

As I said many pages ago this is a storm in a tea cup. If you believe in really free trade then it is an artificial attempt to allow FLGs to compete on a more even playing field; if you believe in having a FLGs running successfully then this may well be a good thing.

I think if my FLGS could only order 500 per month of special order stuff he would be at a loss. Almost everything i want now is special order. I have all the core units i will every need but my special characters are direct order stuff. Times that by 10 and he reaches his limit.

The thing that gets me the most is that i cannot go into my local store and get most of the things for my army because of special ordering and stuff like that. He can't even stock it. I understand if GW is low on inventory , or if they are switching materials and need to coordinate stuff. If i owned a FLGS and my meta was say very Space Marine and Eldar you bet I would want ever model there for impulse sales and such.

Maybe get some 2 part silicone and 2 part resin and start making our own bitz will be the way forward?

 notprop wrote:


I don't agree.

True taking the initial spend is attractive but why turn you back on repeat business after that? It make no sense and is contrary to all commonly held goals of running a company. Repeat business even if smaller than the existing rush drives turnover and GW is all about turnover and not profit as commonly assumed.

Now we at both conjecturing on this but I would suggest the UK would hold up as a example of what it is possible where GW pushes its model as much as possible. Here there is a GW in most large towns and above and yet independent store exist aplenty as do the most of the biggest independent retailers. If GW don't establish a monopoly of the market here under favourable circumstances then why would they suddenly decide North America is the place to give it a spin?

As I said many pages ago this is a storm in a tea cup. If you believe in really free trade then it is an artificial attempt to allow FLGs to compete on a more even playing field; if you believe in having a FLGs running successfully then this may well be a good thing.

Population Density. It can be really thin here in the States. People here like to live very spread out. There might not be enough players in an area to support even two games stores that are 20 miles apart. Stick a GW store right between them, and you have issues.

 Grimtuff wrote:

breacher18 wrote:
This has effected the miniwargaming store:
http://breacher18.com/heretics/

Bit late to the party here matey....

And didn't MiniWargaming state that the GW decision wasn't the biggest contributor to this decision, anyway? Something about how their business in creating hobby videos is doing better, with a greater profit margin, than retail sales and they'd rather focus on things that are bringing in the most money...

GW is making the same mistake that the video game industry has been making for awhile. Instead of providing a higher volume of quality content, they're focusing on restricting their content to as few sellers possible, assuming that resells are somehow hurting their profit margin in a significant way. The companies that are actually bringing in money, in video games, are the ones that learned from the music industry.

The music industry freaked out about piracy sued the pants off everyone, then said "crap, we didn't realize this was going to make us look like the bad guy," (behind closed doors, obviously), and started focusing on making what they're selling affordable, scale-able (with discounts provided to people who are willing to spend more), and easily accessible. And you know what happened? In spite of rampant piracy, 2012 sold more than 2011, and 2013 will probably follow the same trend.

What am I trying to get at here? Either GW will get with the times before they go under, or they'll go under. That said, wouldn't it be nice to be able to buy a single sprue of minies for X cost and get a discount for buying 10.

Matney X wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

breacher18 wrote:
This has effected the miniwargaming store:
http://breacher18.com/heretics/

Bit late to the party here matey....

And didn't MiniWargaming state that the GW decision wasn't the biggest contributor to this decision, anyway?

They wanted to make it clear that it wasn't the ONLY factor in the decision which is a signficantly different point. After making that statement, they then went on for the rest of the remaining 95% of the video talking exclusively about the GW trade terms details/fallacies and how it affected them.

 warboss wrote:

Matney X wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

breacher18 wrote:
This has effected the miniwargaming store:
http://breacher18.com/heretics/

Bit late to the party here matey....

And didn't MiniWargaming state that the GW decision wasn't the biggest contributor to this decision, anyway?

They wanted to make it clear that it wasn't the ONLY factor in the decision which is a signficantly different point. After making that statement, they then went on for the rest of the remaining 95% of the video talking exclusively about the GW trade terms details/fallacies and how it affected them.

Yep it wasnt the only reason BUT, well they werent going to close it till this happened, so it was definetly the final straw, in fact id call it a bale of straw.... that and they just released their own new table top game as well... i think he said it wasnt the only thing but a very large contributing factor......

Orktavius wrote:
GW's posistioning itself as a seller of a PREMIUM product at a PREMIUM price and while some folks will disagree aesthetically GW's mini's are factually the highest quality plastic and resin mini's around

HAHAHAHAHA thank you for the fantastic laugh this morning. Sig'ed

steve2112 wrote:
I think if my FLGS could only order 500 per month of special order stuff he would be at a loss. Almost everything i want now is special order. I have all the core units i will every need but my special characters are direct order stuff. Times that by 10 and he reaches his limit.

The thing that gets me the most is that i cannot go into my local store and get most of the things for my army because of special ordering and stuff like that. He can't even stock it. I understand if GW is low on inventory , or if they are switching materials and need to coordinate stuff. If i owned a FLGS and my meta was say very Space Marine and Eldar you bet I would want ever model there for impulse sales and such.

This is the core point I feel everyone is missing. The same non-customer outrage brigade is flaring up anger again, but the main issue is not that GW is drinking the tears of Internet dealers, Exporters and Bitz sellers. It is that they claim to want to drive sales to FLGS to support them and now like steve2112 said... GW makes new releases WE want, and we cannot go to our FLGS and buy them or even patiently order them. I have no problem waiting a month for a release if the place where I play with that gaming system can get the business. That is the only thing I would hope GW reconsiders... but I suspect GW feels if the exporters and Internet discounters dry up, then they will find FLGS who were doing those sales won't have the need for 500$+ of direct sales. This is the issue which needs changing. I am not worried about Bitz sellers losing profit margin or exporters, only FLGS inability to sell product in person.

If I'm not mistaken, and I totally could be, aren't a number of these new policies against the US Anti-trust laws? Like the must sell product boxed as is, and the trade limit of $500 on certain products for retailers, and the inability to sell to people outside of the country? I mean these seem like violations of the predatory business practices and refusal to deal laws.

 TheMind wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, and I totally could be, aren't a number of these new policies against the US Anti-trust laws? Like the must sell product boxed as is, and the trade limit of $500 on certain products for retailers, and the inability to sell to people outside of the country? I mean these seem like violations of the predatory business practices and refusal to deal laws.

I don't believe they do simply because (if I remember correctly), Anti-trust laws are to protect corporations from becoming too large. If GW and Company X both made Space Marines for Company Y's Warhammer 40k, then they might be violating Anti-trust laws.

But with all that said, I'm not a lawyer and don't know law

 TheMind wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, and I totally could be, aren't a number of these new policies against the US Anti-trust laws? Like the must sell product boxed as is, and the trade limit of $500 on certain products for retailers, and the inability to sell to people outside of the country? I mean these seem like violations of the predatory business practices and refusal to deal laws.

You have only the rights that you demand and win in a court of law. GW has a proven track record of threatening to or actually starting litigation on shaky legal ground. Distributors are likley an order of magnitude larger than any one average store and yet GW is at least an order of magnitude larger than them so can easily outspend anyone on the other side of the trade agreement. Unless someone wants to spend the tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of their life in litigating the trade agreement as opposed to either signing it or stopping selling GW products, it makes no difference what the law does or does not say (and I claim no expert or amateur knowledge on that subject). The federal government has bigger fish to fry (or ignore even) than a toy soldier maker with so many viable competitors.

nkelsch wrote:

steve2112 wrote:
I think if my FLGS could only order 500 per month of special order stuff he would be at a loss. Almost everything i want now is special order. I have all the core units i will every need but my special characters are direct order stuff. Times that by 10 and he reaches his limit.

The thing that gets me the most is that i cannot go into my local store and get most of the things for my army because of special ordering and stuff like that. He can't even stock it. I understand if GW is low on inventory , or if they are switching materials and need to coordinate stuff. If i owned a FLGS and my meta was say very Space Marine and Eldar you bet I would want ever model there for impulse sales and such.

This is the core point I feel everyone is missing. The same non-customer outrage brigade is flaring up anger again, but the main issue is not that GW is drinking the tears of Internet dealers, Exporters and Bitz sellers. It is that they claim to want to drive sales to FLGS to support them and now like steve2112 said... GW makes new releases WE want, and we cannot go to our FLGS and buy them or even patiently order them. I have no problem waiting a month for a release if the place where I play with that gaming system can get the business. That is the only thing I would hope GW reconsiders... but I suspect GW feels if the exporters and Internet discounters dry up, then they will find FLGS who were doing those sales won't have the need for 500$+ of direct sales. This is the issue which needs changing. I am not worried about Bitz sellers losing profit margin or exporters, only FLGS inability to sell product in person.

That's not a core point everyone is missing, it's just GW dropped several bombs at once and it's hard to track the outrage on specific points, lol.

Personally I'm unhappy on all accounts.

1. GW restricting direct sales and cutting off their 3rd party retailer profit.

2. GW wanting to stop bits sales, cutting off the profits of bits sellers and also making their product less appealing to me because I can no longer build armies the way I wanted (assuming they are successful, but even if they aren't I'm not happy for their attempt at doing so).

3. No internet sales and no exporting pisses me off because instead of trying to adapt to technology and a global market to the benefit of consumers, they are fighting against it. They don't have to be completely dynamic with the exchange rate on a day to day basis, of course not, but they've chosen to go the other extreme of completely ignoring exchange rate to the detriment of retailers and consumers and now instead of trying to fix it they're trying to make the international market disappear.

I am typically a man who doesn't overly care about the business practices of a company as long as they produce a product I want for a price I want, GW are pushing my limit at the moment and #3 on that list will push me over the edge if it actually comes to pass that the international market dies and #1 will push me over the edge if I start seeing my FLGS dying and/or no longer carrying GW products.

I was just telling a friend that the other day.

GW has been doing so many sketchy things lately that its hard to keep track of them all. In the last two years we've gotten a huge amount of bad moves on GWs part

-Australian embargo
-Finecast quality
-Finecast material cost (1/10 that of metal but +15% price?)
-The annual price rises
-One man demo stores
-Death from the skies retailer snub
-Destroying online sales
-Cutting off international sales

Im sure there is much more then that but it really seems like they're throwing at us all at once, especially since we have a price rise coming up shortly....

All of those things are bad, but on the other hand, we have gotten a lot of good things in the last year as well (How many army books in a row now?).

It is like they have some sort of crazy manic disorder or do everything according to some giant Wheel of Fortune.

 pretre wrote:
All of those things are bad, but on the other hand, we have gotten a lot of good things in the last year as well (How many army books in a row now?).

It is like they have some sort of crazy manic disorder or do everything according to some giant Wheel of Fortune.

Maybe they believe in a negatively balanced universe where for every good thing they do they have to kick people in the balls twice to balance it out.

Yeah but we should expect good things, and making books is normal. They have a release schedule like they did back in 3rd. At the rate they are going they will have all 15 armies updated by 7th.

Point is you dont get rewarded for doing what is expected of you, you get rewarded when you go above and beyond, and in equal measure you will be shamed when you are not performing properly.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 pretre wrote:
All of those things are bad, but on the other hand, we have gotten a lot of good things in the last year as well (How many army books in a row now?).

It is like they have some sort of crazy manic disorder or do everything according to some giant Wheel of Fortune.

Maybe they believe in a negatively balanced universe where for every good thing they do they have to kick people in the balls twice to balance it out.

You know... That isn't such a crazy idea.

"Okay, we're going to release a new Chaos book... But in order to do that, we're going to need to hike prices..."

Also, was Finecast still in the last year? Seems longer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yeah but we should expect good things, and making books is normal. They have a release schedule like they did back in 3rd. At the rate they are going they will have all 15 armies updated by 7th.

Even third edition didn't release a book a month.

3rd was once every 3 months for dexs with random stuff inbetween, its pretty close, the only difference is the books are double in price, despite being nicer and fleshed out, the content is basically the same.

And fine cast was 2011, alot has gone down in 2 years.

 Ravenous D wrote:
3rd was once every 3 months for dexs with random stuff inbetween, its pretty close, the only difference is the books are double in price, despite being nicer and fleshed out, the content is basically the same.

And fine cast was 2011, alot has gone down in 2 years.

Oh, you did say 2 years. My bad.

The codexes are significantly more than 'fleshed out' from the third edition ones. Compare 3rd Ed Space Marines to 5th Ed Space Marines. HUGE difference. Heck, DA was just a pamphlet compared to the full hardcover dex.

My point is that they are putting out one a month right now, with new model ranges. That's pretty exceptional. They've never done that before.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 pretre wrote:
All of those things are bad, but on the other hand, we have gotten a lot of good things in the last year as well (How many army books in a row now?).

It is like they have some sort of crazy manic disorder or do everything according to some giant Wheel of Fortune.

Maybe they believe in a negatively balanced universe where for every good thing they do they have to kick people in the balls twice to balance it out.

This made me laugh out loud. Great post.

Its good and bad.

Its good because we get lots of new stuff frequently

Its bad because if you're like me you buy ever codex to "know thy enemy" and it makes it more difficult to keep up with all the wacky stuff. As well as a painter I find it annoying as hell when I put in hundreds of hours into an army that is only playable (and more importantly sellable) for a few months.

 pretre wrote:
All of those things are bad, but on the other hand, we have gotten a lot of good things in the last year as well (How many army books in a row now?).

Really? That GW have managed to keep up with their release schedule is your entire summation of good things that have come out of Nottingham last year?!

PhantomViper wrote:
Really? That GW have managed to keep up with their release schedule is your entire summation of good things that have come out of Nottingham last year?!

That's pretty disingenuous. They haven't 'kept up with their release schedule' in the last year; they have shattered it. Take an honest look at the number of army books released in the last year (and models to go with them) and then find another time when we have received anything like this much attention for one or more systems. The closest is the launch of third edition and those books/launches had far fewer models/pages in them than we are getting now.


edit: I mean, last 6 months even:
Tau
Daemons (2 Books)
DA
WoC
CSM
Starter Set

 pretre wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Really? That GW have managed to keep up with their release schedule is your entire summation of good things that have come out of Nottingham last year?!

That's pretty disingenuous. They haven't 'kept up with their release schedule' in the last year; they have shattered it. Take an honest look at the number of army books released in the last year (and models to go with them) and then find another time when we have received anything like this much attention for one or more systems. The closest is the launch of third edition and those books/launches had far fewer models/pages in them than we are getting now.

I think it might be tough to know precisely what their release schedule is, since they don't seem to publish any sort of schedule? I've been hearing rumors of Tau being released since October. The rumors said anywhere between Feb 2013 and September 2013. I'm not disagreeing with you by the way. I just think GW isn't very generous with information about its plans. I guess I'm spoiled by knowing 3 years ago that a new Hobbit movie was coming out, but not knowing what GW is doing 30 days from now.

On topic… guys… stop buying GW… Boycott the Tau, don’t buy for 2 months… stocks drop.

Funny thing is Dakka can turn a simple kickstarter into a Multi-Million dollar project with very little effort… but it can’t make an industry change like boycott or something… for having power in one direction it lacks in another.

Ahh, yes. Boycotts have worked spectacularly before. In general, people are willing to boycott until their army is updated. Then they start buying again. Not to mention we are a small segment of GW's overall base.

GW is treating the BUSINESS in a way i dont like,

but wont really affect me much since I buy from GW or online if Im feeling cheap.

I dont see online bitz sales going anywhere, and TBH any FLGS i go in that actually has 40k has poor selection anyway,

YMMV

Id say I am a bit annoyed at the international price differences, when my $ was worth 15% less then the americain dollar I paid 15% more for minis,

when my $ was worth MORE then the americain dollar, I still paid 15% more for minis...

but thats with every product ever, again unless im using ebay.


all this business stuff pales compared to the awesomeness that is this new release shceduale...

keep the codexes and faq updates happening this fast and I am a happy camper

 5deadly wrote:

On topic… guys… stop buying GW… Boycott the Tau, don’t buy for 2 months… stocks drop.

Why? I'm getting practically a codex a month, I have FW HH books and models, 6th Edition is much better than 5th edition for my gaming group, and I really enjoy the Chaos Space Marines and Daemons Codex.

Why should I do anything? I'm HAPPY with my hobby.

 kronk wrote:

 5deadly wrote:

On topic… guys… stop buying GW… Boycott the Tau, don’t buy for 2 months… stocks drop.

Why? I'm getting practically a codex a month, I have FW HH books and models, 6th Edition is much better than 5th edition for my gaming group, and I really enjoy the Chaos Space Marines and Daemons Codex.

Why should I do anything? I'm HAPPY with my hobby.

I think this is the part that a lot of people don't get. There are quite a few people out there (more than likely the majority of GW's base) who are seeing this as a golden age for new books, models, etc. Even with price hikes, etc so on, folks with plenty of disposable income don't care.