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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Warmachine (not warmahordes, just warmachine) is already bigger than warhammer fantasy.

[citation needed].

Personally I think it's a shame, Fantasy is really an enjoyable game (at least until GW buggered it up last edition, I haven't played a lot since then). I don't want GW to die, I just want them to not be arses.

In the US, through Independent Retailers.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24225.html

I had heard that Clix had actually topped 40K as well - but they are non-competing categories, and many of the sales their go to collectors of the given release or general collectors. There is also a rumor that goes around from time to time among store owners that the combined PP games beat 40K as well.

WFB in the US has never really been that strong of a seller. For whatever reason - it just doesn't have legs here.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Warmachine (not warmahordes, just warmachine) is already bigger than warhammer fantasy.

[citation needed].

Personally I think it's a shame, Fantasy is really an enjoyable game (at least until GW buggered it up last edition, I haven't played a lot since then). I don't want GW to die, I just want them to not be arses.

In the US, through Independent Retailers.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24225.html

I had heard that Clix had actually topped 40K as well - but they are non-competing categories, and many of the sales their go to collectors of the given release or general collectors. There is also a rumor that goes around from time to time among store owners that the combined PP games beat 40K as well.

WFB in the US has never really been that strong of a seller. For whatever reason - it just doesn't have legs here.

Oh thank god I've seen that link before but I could never have found it myself.

But yea, Fantasy is (sadly) not that big down here either. It was but apparently 8th drove a lot of people away, tourney's that used to get 100-120 people have stopped running or been forced to scale back because they started getting 20-30 people.

JWhex wrote:With the new rules against selling items without their original packing I am curious if people think it hurt one of the ways my flgs sells used models.

Basically the owner will sell your stuff on ebay, take a cut and you get the rest in store credit. This is a good service for people that dont have the time to deal with ebay or just do not want to. Because he has sold thousands of items and has such a high rating it is a good way to unload stuff without any hassle.

Anyway I am wondering if he will run afoul of GW's new policy because he sells a ton of used GW products this way.

Likely, yes. I suspect GW takes the same attitude towards the secondhand mini market the way video game manufacturers take toward used game stores: overt hostility.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Warmachine (not warmahordes, just warmachine) is already bigger than warhammer fantasy.

[citation needed].

Personally I think it's a shame, Fantasy is really an enjoyable game (at least until GW buggered it up last edition, I haven't played a lot since then). I don't want GW to die, I just want them to not be arses.

In the US, through Independent Retailers.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24225.html

I had heard that Clix had actually topped 40K as well - but they are non-competing categories, and many of the sales their go to collectors of the given release or general collectors. There is also a rumor that goes around from time to time among store owners that the combined PP games beat 40K as well.

WFB in the US has never really been that strong of a seller. For whatever reason - it just doesn't have legs here.

I've always wondered about that stat....especially as often as it comes up on here. icv2 does release that, but I am not sure how accurate it is. Others use to do the same thing in the heyday of Warzone. (Industry Magazines Listing Warzone as #3 or #2 (also beating fantasy)) Unfortunately none of the "numbers" included the sales of GW trade or retail because they would never give that info out (at least in breakdown.) They used the distributor numbers, and since GW distributed most of its product itself, a lot of info was missing back then. If icv2 is getting #s from GW, then fine, but they would have to state it specifically instead of just "The charts are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers."

Let's just say I was not surprised to find out that the real GW numbers were factors above the reported amounts in various "source magazines or reports" back then. When I went to work for GW I found out just how little Alliance did with fantasy and 40k. GW sold more paint than that a year. New Wave (one if not the first big internet discounter that eventually morphed into CMON) almost did/ or did do as much as the distributors a lot of the time. Maybe all of that has changed a lot (it was a long time ago - I'm old ) but from what I hear it hasn't changed THAT much.

Maybe that stat includes direct info from GW (though that would be a WILD departure from their normal reluctance and definitely a shift from when I worked there), but until you know it does it may not be giving the whole picture. If I'm wrong then fine, but you know what they say about statistics, right? Its even more true if you only have part of the numbers.....

Unfortunately a lot of the pricing issues we have may also be directly related to GW's fight against discounters as well

my prediction is they are moving towards cutting out everyone. If you want stuff you will need to buy it direct from them only at full price.

theyve already done this with forgeworld.

Edited by Mannahnin

Grinding an axe much?

Again with the off-topic ban?

I don't know, I mean. He had a point, even if it was a poor one, and off the topic of an off topic thread, in the off topic section of the forums.

Still, should have let the video there.

@kb305. Think that may be correct, eventually. Could be about the worse idea I ever heard. If they do it, then someone there has completely lost sight of what doorways bring you. However, they may feel like its the only way to control pricing and perceived value. This and pricing seem to be directly aimed at basically the same thing.

If they have to bring out the big stick a few times a year fine, but they may bring it to a point where they just pull it all and deal with no one....

So does this mean GW is being pro brick and mortar shops? if my choice is to buy from my FLGS or online directly from GW because I can't get a 30% discount then I will buy from my FLGS. It wasn't worth buying from my FLGs shop until this goes into effect. If I can't buy my GW stuff from someone at a substantial discount online then I'm just going to support my local shop.

boyd wrote:
So does this mean GW is being pro brick and mortar shops?

It means they're being pro their own B&M stores and their own website.

 azazel the cat wrote:

JWhex wrote:With the new rules against selling items without their original packing I am curious if people think it hurt one of the ways my flgs sells used models.

Basically the owner will sell your stuff on ebay, take a cut and you get the rest in store credit. This is a good service for people that dont have the time to deal with ebay or just do not want to. Because he has sold thousands of items and has such a high rating it is a good way to unload stuff without any hassle.

Anyway I am wondering if he will run afoul of GW's new policy because he sells a ton of used GW products this way.

Likely, yes. I suspect GW takes the same attitude towards the secondhand mini market the way video game manufacturers take toward used game stores: overt hostility.

The FLGS I play at does a, couple times a year "bitz bazaar". And they were concerned about whether this would violate the policy. Their rep told them no it would not. That's in MA, so I don't know if it's different elsewhere so take with a grain of salt. Also I don't know if that's even the same thing, or if you even believe what I say haha.

Chancetragedy wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

JWhex wrote:With the new rules against selling items without their original packing I am curious if people think it hurt one of the ways my flgs sells used models.

Basically the owner will sell your stuff on ebay, take a cut and you get the rest in store credit. This is a good service for people that dont have the time to deal with ebay or just do not want to. Because he has sold thousands of items and has such a high rating it is a good way to unload stuff without any hassle.

Anyway I am wondering if he will run afoul of GW's new policy because he sells a ton of used GW products this way.

Likely, yes. I suspect GW takes the same attitude towards the secondhand mini market the way video game manufacturers take toward used game stores: overt hostility.

The FLGS I play at does a, couple times a year "bitz bazaar". And they were concerned about whether this would violate the policy. Their rep told them no it would not. That's in MA, so I don't know if it's different elsewhere so take with a grain of salt. Also I don't know if that's even the same thing, or if you even believe what I say haha.

I think reps aren't the most trustworthy people, all the way back with the flyers compendium (so you know, a month ago or whatever, hey maybe GW are pulling all this so that all their dumb policies are so close together no one has time to really focus on any one of them) the reps were saying FLGS can get their hands on them. If the store is selling anything out of it's original packaging they would be in violation of this.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

boyd wrote:
So does this mean GW is being pro brick and mortar shops?

It means they're being pro their own B&M stores and their own website.

Yeah, GW would absolutely love it if you bought everything online from them directly. It's almost all profit because they have a much lower overhead. Hell I bet they would prefer you bought online from them instead of going to their own B&M stores.

They're perfectly fine with online sales, just as long as they get all the money from them. Everyone else is "free-loading".

 Sidstyler wrote:
Hell I bet they would prefer you bought online from them instead of going to their own B&M stores

I'm happy to do that, just as soon as they reinstitute realistic shipping costs on the UK website.

It's pro brick and mortar.....as in independents without a webstore. Everything GW's been doing has been to protect the 'perceived' quality of GW products as well as independent retailers of the non-webstore variety.

Like pretty much EVERY other company in the world GW only wants it's product sold in it's packaging when new, the packaging they spent a good deal of time and money on to look appealing. Most companies would take a dim view of trade partners opening their product up, parting it out in cheap looking plastic baggies and then selling it piecemeal.

EDIT: It's flat rate shipping that's free over a certain dollar amount, that's on whoever their delivery deal is with.

Orktavius wrote:
It's pro brick and mortar.....as in independents without a webstore.

Yup, limiting how much of the range they can sell, and removing their ability to compete with online bits Sellers is clearly in the retailer's best interests. Somehow.

EDIT: It's flat rate shipping that's free over a certain dollar amount, that's on whoever their delivery deal is with.

Not on international purchases.

boyd wrote:
So does this mean GW is being pro brick and mortar shops? if my choice is to buy from my FLGS or online directly from GW because I can't get a 30% discount then I will buy from my FLGS. It wasn't worth buying from my FLGs shop until this goes into effect. If I can't buy my GW stuff from someone at a substantial discount online then I'm just going to support my local shop.

I'd say that basically yes (note a few retailers are actually pretty happy with some of this - I know my FLGS is) I do think that is what GW is trying to do (whether it works or not). If GW could legally just tell all retailers in US - no discounts, and limited sales, then I know they would have done so when I worked there. We even looked into it, and could not. I think Battlefront does the 10% thing in EU, so it must be legal there?

Right now especially they need B&M stores. They also want to maintain a value to their product. And no I am not trying to start a true price debate, or say what the value is - I just think that is GW's Perception. They want the doorways, but if the retailers online that discount have really gotten that big then I can see them doing all sorts of things to change it. I think a lot of the new pricing in US has a lot to do with it for the last few years. Note at 20-25% off a lot of things are close to the retail price that they were at a few years ago. They had a similar problem in England a long time ago and just changed the discount they gave to stores. Basically if their retail customers won't take the money - GW would. GW could also have problems in US because they are supposed to give same terms to everyone. They could not stop selling to a lot of the stores due to discounting without also not selling to stores like Showcase.

Yes, GW loves money, and would love to sell online to you, but for any long term concept they need doorways for people to discover it. In UK, clubs and groups do this, in the US it tends to be FLGSs. The discounters are not representing their local game market, they are selling nationally (or even internationally) and when stores start closing because all of their players go to the discounters then GW loses the doorways. They are hurting other retailers, and lots of non-discounting game stores have lost sales or slowly let their stock dwindle because they could not compete with the discount. Remember lots of game stores are doing well if they have a true profit between 7-10% and a whole lot of stores would be thrilled with that amount!

Market pressures have changed a lot of things (proliferation of games due to costs, the havoc the discounters have caused to the FLGS network, and more) but GW's true advantage is that you can go almost everywhere and get a game in. Lots of small market games or companies don't have that. At my FLGS you can basically play 40k, WFB, Warmahordes, Magic, or board games. Even with all of the new mini games out there, except for an occasional demo or tryout you don't see the others played too much. Even a lot of the board games are played for a while, but then lare left as they play the new "hot one". X-wing is an example. It can be a great game for you, and they sold a bunch at the release. but there have only been a few games since in the store, and those guys are all back to playing in the WFB or 40k tournies.

Also, I would like to say that there is just a lot of what goes on at GW now that bothers me. I'd like them to do well so I can have people to play. I definitely don't like some of the things they do though.

@Insaniak - yes Direct only ticks me off because I like to support my friends store. It is one of the BIG things I think they do wrong. but limiting it so a store could service its local area only would be no problem to me. I also predict if we ever hear of a store being shut down from trade it will be due to bits online in some way (ebay or a site). I bet they won't try to squash "bits nights" or swaps from stores. Unless/Until they start stocking it as bits or advertising I bet you won't hear anything about it. Of course if it is online, I bet they go after it.

Orktavius wrote:
It's pro brick and mortar.....as in independents without a webstore. Everything GW's been doing has been to protect the 'perceived' quality of GW products as well as independent retailers of the non-webstore variety.

They really aren't, that is their excuse but the guys up top refer to their products as toys. They are using it as an excuse to try and choke off online stores. After that they will try and shut down FLGSs and replace them with their own. They have already done this in the UK and plan to open 800 more stores in the US, so this is not speculation. They see those trade sales to FLGSs made at only 55% of RRP and think 'hey, they are freeloading off us, we would be making twice as much if those people bought direct from us'. (And yes freeloading is a word they have used to describe online stores in the past despite the fact GW no longer support the community any more with their 1 man stores and lack of tourney support.)

As for other companies not letting people sell parts of a their products, no they don't but car companies don't sure anyone trying to make replacement parts.

Orktavius 514316 5427335 null wrote:Most companies would take a dim view of trade partners opening their product up, parting it out in cheap looking plastic baggies and then selling it piecemeal.

I've been trying to think of other companies where this would even be an issue. Other than Lego, the only others that I can think of where there would be enough call for retailers to consider doing this are for things like confectionery (where its most definitely not unusual for companies to buy in bulk and sell in unlabelled packaging) and drinks ( where the individual units are specifically designed for that purpose).

Plus what does an expensive plastic baggie look like?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Plus what does an expensive plastic baggie look like?

Like this.

Seriously, $0.49ea? wtf Staples.

Orktavius wrote:
It's pro brick and mortar.....as in independents without a webstore. Everything GW's been doing has been to protect the 'perceived' quality of GW products as well as independent retailers of the non-webstore variety.

Like pretty much EVERY other company in the world GW only wants it's product sold in it's packaging when new, the packaging they spent a good deal of time and money on to look appealing. Most companies would take a dim view of trade partners opening their product up, parting it out in cheap looking plastic baggies and then selling it piecemeal.

EDIT: It's flat rate shipping that's free over a certain dollar amount, that's on whoever their delivery deal is with.

Except that GW policies inhibit the support for stores, since the vast majority of their garbage is going into direct only, limiting, I believe, stores to $500.00 a month for direct only products. Given that it's a tiny drop in the pond for all of the things that are in there demanded by customers, B&M stores can't even sell to their own customers, because they are bound by the terms of the agreement to not be able to supply the items in question. This is hurting independents for two reasons. First, people are turning to GW instead, which is bullgak, because the FLGS provides gaming space, to which the players now don't pay rent for, and second, if there is no GW there, then it's just turning the customer out of any purchase. The store experience is the most compulsive and most rewarding with the interpersonal exchange. It does take some patience to wait for the things you ordered online.... And now with MWG shut down, and a flashy new train station, visits to sentry box will be more frequent.

As to the packaging... I find that a weak argument, specifically because of the targetted market. Bits dealers are not aiming at the new people entering the hobby or starting 40k, they are looking for the entrenched people who need those extra bits to finish a conversion, or get the entire kit magnetized. It's implicit that if I am looking for bits, that I'm already familiar with the brand. Why is it I can call up any manufacturer and ask for a replacement part for x. It's like badger or iawata getting up on your ass for asking about a replacement part, and them insisting that you cough up another $200 for another airbrush, instead of replacing just the part. The point? If I am already familiar with the brand and looking for specific bits only, then I already know what I'm looking for, and don't need the packaging.

Really, this bits dealing thing is only shooting themselves in the foot. Tird pary bits don't look the same as GW stuff, they're more expensive, but if all I really need are 3 pairs of legs..... I'll cough up the $10-$15 for the overpriced 3rd party bits, rather than cough up $50-$60 and end up with more plastic than I know what to do with or where to store.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Plus what does an expensive plastic baggie look like?

Like this.

Seriously, $0.49ea? wtf Staples.

Lol Emily if you need a good bag vendor pm me. I get them by the thousand for under $4.

 Empchild wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Plus what does an expensive plastic baggie look like?

Like this.

Seriously, $0.49ea? wtf Staples.

Lol Emily if you need a good bag vendor pm me. I get them by the thousand for under $4.

I don't buy from Staples, but I'll definitely listen about a cheaper source

 poda_t wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
It's pro brick and mortar.....as in independents without a webstore. Everything GW's been doing has been to protect the 'perceived' quality of GW products as well as independent retailers of the non-webstore variety.

Like pretty much EVERY other company in the world GW only wants it's product sold in it's packaging when new, the packaging they spent a good deal of time and money on to look appealing. Most companies would take a dim view of trade partners opening their product up, parting it out in cheap looking plastic baggies and then selling it piecemeal.

EDIT: It's flat rate shipping that's free over a certain dollar amount, that's on whoever their delivery deal is with.

Except that GW policies inhibit the support for stores, since the vast majority of their garbage is going into direct only, limiting, I believe, stores to $500.00 a month for direct only products. Given that it's a tiny drop in the pond for all of the things that are in there demanded by customers, B&M stores can't even sell to their own customers, because they are bound by the terms of the agreement to not be able to supply the items in question. This is hurting independents for two reasons. First, people are turning to GW instead, which is bullgak, because the FLGS provides gaming space, to which the players now don't pay rent for, and second, if there is no GW there, then it's just turning the customer out of any purchase. The store experience is the most compulsive and most rewarding with the interpersonal exchange. It does take some patience to wait for the things you ordered online.... And now with MWG shut down, and a flashy new train station, visits to sentry box will be more frequent.

As to the packaging... I find that a weak argument, specifically because of the targetted market. Bits dealers are not aiming at the new people entering the hobby or starting 40k, they are looking for the entrenched people who need those extra bits to finish a conversion, or get the entire kit magnetized. It's implicit that if I am looking for bits, that I'm already familiar with the brand. Why is it I can call up any manufacturer and ask for a replacement part for x. It's like badger or iawata getting up on your ass for asking about a replacement part, and them insisting that you cough up another $200 for another airbrush, instead of replacing just the part. The point? If I am already familiar with the brand and looking for specific bits only, then I already know what I'm looking for, and don't need the packaging.

Really, this bits dealing thing is only shooting themselves in the foot. Tird pary bits don't look the same as GW stuff, they're more expensive, but if all I really need are 3 pairs of legs..... I'll cough up the $10-$15 for the overpriced 3rd party bits, rather than cough up $50-$60 and end up with more plastic than I know what to do with or where to store.

The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock. My local GW has splash releases from the beastmen launch that are still hanging around despite being direct order now. Hell my local GW store doesn't even do $500 a month worth of that stuff. Will that cause problems for some retailers who are doing more? Unfortunately their may be a few but I seriously doubt that anyone other than the online discounters are seriously moving around any real amount of the direct only product. The reason that product is direct only is to limit how much wasted space GW's warehouse has to spend holding onto product that sells slowly. Many of you might not know or understand it but product that sits on a shelf without selling eventually winds up costing a retailer money in the opportunity cost of not putting product that sells faster on those same shelves. It's part of the reason you see clothing stores have massive clearance sales, not just because the clothes aren't right for the season, but because keeping them on the racks instead of bringing in new clothes will cost them thousands of dollars in the end.

I know death from the skies is about to be brought up so I'll deal with that now....that book is almost entirely a reprint of WD articles and the crusade of fire campaign book. The only changes are a line on the flyboss rules, the point cost of the storm talon and the storm raven being added to C:SM and black templar books. Meaning the whole book will be useless relatively soon when those books are redone. Do I think they should have sent some to independent retailers? Sure, but they don't even carry it in their own B&M stores which says a lot about how much of it they think they will sell in the end.

In regards to bits being a targeted market, I won't disagree with that, but since just about every online retailer that sells bits ALSO sells full kits and has them displayed on their website in the same place they display the full kit it becomes a problem. If I showed one hundred people a box of Tactical marines and a plastic baggy with the same sprues in it and asked them which they would pay more for the majority would choose the boxed models for no other reason than it looks far more professional. Just taking it out of the packaging alone devalues the product and makes it appear to be no better than a dollar store bag of green army men to people who aren't in the hobby or have just entered it. Basically, bitz sellers run counter to GW's marketing strategy of a premium product for a premium price. It's not the e-bay bitz sellers that are a problem it's stores like the warstore or mini wargaming that GW has issue with as they basically put the cheap bits in a bag right next to the regular GW kits which ruins the perception.

Orktavius wrote:
The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock.

Yeah, it's not like anyone building an army needs character models...

No one needs those conversion kits either. I mean, they sell Thousand Sons in plastic, right? Or all those specialist games. No one plays Blood Bowl anymore, right?

Oh, wait....

Orktavius wrote:
The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock.

Yeah, its almost like we didn't have a FLGS owner come out just last week saying that he sold thousands of dollars of direct only and that that measure hurt his business and his ability to supply his customers in a really big way...