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PhantomViper wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock.

Yeah, its almost like we didn't have a FLGS owner come out just last week saying that he sold thousands of dollars of direct only and that that measure hurt his business and his ability to supply his customers in a really big way...

yeah its only $5000 a month of lost sales... means nothing really..... .... ..... Or it was the straw that broke his stores back....

$5000 a month is more like a log than a Straw I would think.
This reminds me of when (iirc) Maelstrom said they were being limited to ordering 3 of any Finecast model per order, meaning that a single 'Nids player trying to buy a squad of Hiveguard would take up his week's order of that model.... gg, gw.

Not to mention what if your store is in a high population area. Now we have to fight each month to see who gets to order what we want. I ordered 3 kannons and it cost 100$. It's not like these items are cheep so that 500 dollars will get used up fast. Just because your flgs doesn't do that kind of business doesn't mean that others don't. You really should think before posting BS like that.

Wayshuba wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

xraytango wrote:
Just ordered bits from Warstore, help Neal out as much as we can guys!

I have a strong feeling that this new move by GW is directly aimed at him.

So was the shopping cart thing a few years back, apparently the warstore was pulling in more business then GW online and they had to crush it by claiming using their pictures and product codes violated their IP

That's legal?

No, it's not. Unless GW wants to mark all their images as copyrighted. In addition, as long as a site gives proper recognition to the copyright holder and is not reselling the image itself, it is all still legal.

However, it is against GW rules. So while you could get away with using their images given the above, they can also refuse to sell to you as a result of using their images. That is legal.

And therein lies the conundrum. Sure you could legally use their images. But they can then legally refuse to sell to you.

Just another case of GW wishing it was 1995 all over again.

I actually deal with copyright a lot in my profession (marketing graphic designer).

Their copyright applies to the Lore, story, and conceptual images of the models, and any photographs GW takes of said models. Their copyright does not extend to any photographs YOU take of their models - that copyright belongs to you as the photographer.

IGNORING THE TRADE AGREEMENT FOR A SEC - Everyone has to understand your rights as a consumer. GW isn't licensing their products to you. You own the physical object once you purchase it, and have the right do with it as you will. You do not own the CONCEPT of anything Warhammer / GW related to the mini you bought. This means you can destroy, sell, take out of circulation, photograph, you name it to the physical mini you bought.You cannot copy that mini, rebuild it, sell the copies etc because that infringes on their copyright.

Going back to ebay - nothing GW stomps their foot about can touch ebay - good luck to them on that. If an individual seller on ebay has a Trade Agreement? Depending on the contracted agreement, they can be found in breach and shut down from their contract. ebay doesn't have any part in that as the marketplace. If you use GW images for your ebay listing - then they can demand you remove the pics, but not shut down your sale. If you use your own photographs of minis - they can't touch you on that.

 BitWraith wrote:

Going back to ebay - nothing GW stomps their foot about can touch ebay - good luck to them on that. If an individual seller on ebay has a Trade Agreement? Depending on the contracted agreement, they can be found in breach and shut down from their contract. ebay doesn't have any part in that as the marketplace. If you use GW images for your ebay listing - then they can demand you remove the pics, but not shut down your sale. If you use your own photographs of minis - they can't touch you on that.

Exactly. Ebay is following regular old laws and has no business relationship with GW. If GW complains about you violating an agreement with them, Ebay will tell them that it's a matter between the two of you and not get involved.

 wowsmash wrote:
Not to mention what if your store is in a high population area. Now we have to fight each month to see who gets to order what we want. I ordered 3 kannons and it cost 100$. It's not like these items are cheep so that 500 dollars will get used up fast..

I honestly don't see how anyone could think this move is anything other than anti-FLGS. I know my FLGS did more than that on metal/resin models in a month, and they are small in a low traffic area with usually only 1-2 staff on at any given time. If you are a larger store paying more for rent in a high traffic area with multiple staff, cutting direct only sales to $500 may reduce store revenue enough to have to drop an employee or worse. Not to mention it's just going to be a pain in the arse for stores having to tally up direct sales with each sales and then finally tell the next customer "oh sorry, you can't get that, I'm over my limit, you'll have to buy it from my competitor".

If people were angry about death from the skies, they should be furious about this. It's very close to just telling retailers "we aren't going to let you sell our entire range to be competitive with buying direct from us".

PhantomViper wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock.

Yeah, its almost like we didn't have a FLGS owner come out just last week saying that he sold thousands of dollars of direct only and that that measure hurt his business and his ability to supply his customers in a really big way...

Yup...that WEBSTORE called MINIWARGAMING.COM sure did sell $5000 worth of it OVER THE INTERNET. Thank you for proving my point as that is $5000 that could have gone to many different LOCAL independents and is the very reason why GW is changing their trade agreement. This isn't going after E-bay resellers, once you own your model you can do what you want with it and with it's bits. Who they are going after are companies like miniwargaming or the warstore or other online retailers that bits out their stock (lowering the perceived value of GW's product) and webstores in general as they severely damage the business of GW's brick and mortar only trade accounts.

As for the inane comments of "everyone needs characters" or mentioning conversion kits and (LOL) bloodbowl.... the most popular characters aren't direct only , it's not like your going to be buying 30 characters at a time. Same with conversion kits, how many of those do you really need...and more importantly than that, how many do you think get sold on a monthly basis? Do you REALLY believe the turnover is enough that GW should spend thousands of dollars storing enough extra conversion kits for it to be stocked by brick and mortar stores? The answer is a resounding bloody no it's not worth it, the sales don't justify the expense of stocking enough just like it doesn't justify the expense of stocking that much of pretty much anything on the direct order list.

As for bloodbowl and specialist games.....REALLY? You really want to use those as an example? Every one of those specialist games was overall only marginally more successful than dreadfleet, people play them for a time then go back to 40k or fantasy. Find one Brick and mortar retailer that consistently sells bloodbowl starters month after month that's not a web seller. I'm willing to bet you won't find one.

Orktavius wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock.

Yeah, its almost like we didn't have a FLGS owner come out just last week saying that he sold thousands of dollars of direct only and that that measure hurt his business and his ability to supply his customers in a really big way...

Yup...that WEBSTORE called MINIWARGAMING.COM sure did sell $5000 worth of it OVER THE INTERNET. Thank you for proving my point as that is $5000 that could have gone to many different LOCAL independents and is the very reason why GW is changing their trade agreement.

I'm fairly certain Matthew didn't say where that 5000 dollars of product was going out. It could very easily have been a 50/50 split.

I don't remember him saying that either, lets not put words in people's mouths just so you can rave at other posters on the Internet shall we Mmm?

Orktavius wrote:

The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock. My local GW has splash releases from the beastmen launch that are still hanging around despite being direct order now. Hell my local GW store doesn't even do $500 a month worth of that stuff. Will that cause problems for some retailers who are doing more? Unfortunately their may be a few but I seriously doubt that anyone other than the online discounters are seriously moving around any real amount of the direct only product. The reason that product is direct only is to limit how much wasted space GW's warehouse has to spend holding onto product that sells slowly. Many of you might not know or understand it but product that sits on a shelf without selling eventually winds up costing a retailer money in the opportunity cost of not putting product that sells faster on those same shelves. It's part of the reason you see clothing stores have massive clearance sales, not just because the clothes aren't right for the season, but because keeping them on the racks instead of bringing in new clothes will cost them thousands of dollars in the end.

I know death from the skies is about to be brought up so I'll deal with that now....that book is almost entirely a reprint of WD articles and the crusade of fire campaign book. The only changes are a line on the flyboss rules, the point cost of the storm talon and the storm raven being added to C:SM and black templar books. Meaning the whole book will be useless relatively soon when those books are redone. Do I think they should have sent some to independent retailers? Sure, but they don't even carry it in their own B&M stores which says a lot about how much of it they think they will sell in the end.

In regards to bits being a targeted market, I won't disagree with that, but since just about every online retailer that sells bits ALSO sells full kits and has them displayed on their website in the same place they display the full kit it becomes a problem. If I showed one hundred people a box of Tactical marines and a plastic baggy with the same sprues in it and asked them which they would pay more for the majority would choose the boxed models for no other reason than it looks far more professional. Just taking it out of the packaging alone devalues the product and makes it appear to be no better than a dollar store bag of green army men to people who aren't in the hobby or have just entered it. Basically, bitz sellers run counter to GW's marketing strategy of a premium product for a premium price. It's not the e-bay bitz sellers that are a problem it's stores like the warstore or mini wargaming that GW has issue with as they basically put the cheap bits in a bag right next to the regular GW kits which ruins the perception.

So, you're going to willingly ignore the fact that an FLGS owner just shut down their business, and closed their store, because GW limited their direct only sales, despite dealing with demand that was far in excess of wht the trade greenest limits it he direct order at? That your GW has it's stuff kicking around is an indicator of a number of things, either it has a lot of it kicking around in the back( sentry box had space hulk stocked for a while after it ran out),they're in a bad location and it's an inconvenience to get there, or, god forbid, it's a store that people don't like going into because of how they get treated. Your rocking argument makes no sense, because if those same low-demand models are wasting space in GW's warehouses instead of selling them off to collect dust in a retailers warehouse, then it's GW that's losing money for paying rent for products collecting dust on their shelves.

I really don't think you appreciate the quantity of stuff that is direct only, and wilfully ignoring that new releases are going straight to direct only instead of trade account. Tell me, how is it that a B&M is supposed to be protected and supported by gw when GW creates demand for a product it then refuses to supply to a local retailer?

Your remark about the death from the skies only shows more of your ignorance. It "just being a reprint of the WD articles" assumes people stoop low enough to pay monthly for a tabloid thats more a catalogue of company product than it is any useful gaming or hobby related articles. Past that, once all the copies of WD sell out, the only people legally permitted to play any flier are people with access to the rules printed in WD. No photocopies. Just like you can't photocopy and print off only relevant sections of your Army list for ease of reference. Further, you imply you don't see a problem with the fact that it's not GW, but FLGS that supports the community by providing space for gaming and tournaments. I haven't seen a GW set up to handle any real gaming for a long time, usually only one or two tables dedicated to demonstrating their games to a customer. There is a reason that some FLGSs have banned the use of fliers in their stores, and that's because the FLGS can't stock the rule book, can't make the sales of the product because of the absence of the rule book, and don't want to prostitute their FLGS space out to GW customers. So just because it's a reprint of an old article you imply that everyone already has the fliers and rules. No. E very reason I didn't buy the stormguppy pertains to the fact that the rules were not available for general release, and that they were hidden away in a limited printing of a product catalogue.

As to GW Selling premium product... Honestly, it's just glorified army men. Honestly, don't kid yourself. You again point to the public at large with your argument, and not at the established player who is wiling to buy half a box or less of stuff because he really only needs the few pieces for a conversion. I don't see how the bits dealer selling the whole kit causes any problems.sure, it,s no longer about selling to just those entrenched in the hobby, but now about offering people a chance to pick up the basic army elements, and offering the bits that don't come in the kit with respect to upgrades. Heck, that goes for the old timers too, who are looking for another tac squad with multi melta. And it's not jut websites. My local sentry box will not be able to continue selling bits as they have been doing. Ad your argument about packaging is a litte tall, because GW sends out the stand alone bits sprues in ghastly CITADEL CITADEL CITADEL packaging through which you can't even determine what the product looks like.

The real reason GW is going after e-retailers is because GW are pissy with the fact that those retailers are undercutting and "stealing" from GW. I'm sure that some customers will convert back to buying retail, but with prices as high as they are, I don't blame people for copping out of paying cover prices, and outright quitting their purchases from GW. The problem is that GW is trying to drive ore customers under its own roof by limiting sale to B&M stores, which I have a problem with, because if I want to play a game, I don't go to GW where I'm knocking elbows with customers and snot-faced brats trying to swipe my models while I'm not looking, I go to my FLGS which has a separate space dedicated for more than just two 4x4 foot tables. GW wouldn't have to chase down the booming web based market if it had continued providing bits services itsef, and if we didn't see the prices of every single product increase by $5-$20 every year.

Orktavius wrote:

Yup...that WEBSTORE called MINIWARGAMING.COM sure did sell $5000 worth of it OVER THE INTERNET. Thank you for proving my point as that is $5000 that could have gone to many different LOCAL independents and is the very reason why GW is changing their trade agreement. This isn't going after E-bay resellers, once you own your model you can do what you want with it and with it's bits. Who they are going after are companies like miniwargaming or the warstore or other online retailers that bits out their stock (lowering the perceived value of GW's product) and webstores in general as they severely damage the business of GW's brick and mortar only trade accounts.

They never stated that that was the amount of internet sales, you have no way of knowing which part if any of that value was online.

And are you seriously trying to claim that limiting the amount of stock a store can carry is in that store's best interest? Really?

Are you seriously trying to claim that those lost sales would be passed around other brick and mortar stores instead of going straight to GW's pockets through their own online store? That the clients would physically go from store to store to look for the one that maybe still had direct only items available?

There is a reason that GW can't do this kind of shady practices in Europe, the only thing that they are doing is trying to destroy their own online competition.

Orktavius 514316 5429003 wrote:

Yup...that WEBSTORE called MINIWARGAMING.COM sure did sell $5000 worth of it OVER THE INTERNET. Thank you for proving my point as that is $5000 that could have gone to many different LOCAL independents and is the very reason why GW is changing their trade agreement. This isn't going after E-bay resellers, once you own your model you can do what you want with it and with it's bits. Who they are going after are companies like miniwargaming or the warstore or other online retailers that bits out their stock (lowering the perceived value of GW's product) and webstores in general as they severely damage the business of GW's brick and mortar only trade accounts.

Got you!
You can't have it both ways. Either the product is mouldering and collecting dust, or it's getting moved. And you just contradicted yourself, because they were selling high volume, and you shat on them for turning product that you claimed your GW couldnt sell. The reason MWG was making those sales is because of discount and because there were no local GW stores to compete with them. gW wIll get some of those buyers, but it won't be getting all of them what with all the locals pissed off about the closing of their local store. mWG was a local independent store up until GW decided to stop supporting them.

Orktavius wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
The direct only argument for the most part is total BS...it's a damn smokescreen that people like to throw about as if all those products are hot selling merchandise that the hobby community wants a non-stop stock of at every store. Nearly EVERYTHING on the direct order list is old metal models, single characters or slow selling stock.

Yeah, its almost like we didn't have a FLGS owner come out just last week saying that he sold thousands of dollars of direct only and that that measure hurt his business and his ability to supply his customers in a really big way...

Yup...that WEBSTORE called MINIWARGAMING.COM sure did sell $5000 worth of it OVER THE INTERNET. Thank you for proving my point as that is $5000 that could have gone to many different LOCAL independents and is the very reason why GW is changing their trade agreement. This isn't going after E-bay resellers, once you own your model you can do what you want with it and with it's bits. Who they are going after are companies like miniwargaming or the warstore or other online retailers that bits out their stock (lowering the perceived value of GW's product) and webstores in general as they severely damage the business of GW's brick and mortar only trade accounts.

Yeah OK, assuming they were selling the whole $5000 online, and that the sales are transferred over to FLGS's, that's still 10 times the volume any of them can order in a month, so customers may still not be able to get the stuff from an LGS.

As for the inane comments of "everyone needs characters" or mentioning conversion kits and (LOL) bloodbowl.... the most popular characters aren't direct only , it's not like your going to be buying 30 characters at a time. Same with conversion kits, how many of those do you really need...and more importantly than that, how many do you think get sold on a monthly basis? Do you REALLY believe the turnover is enough that GW should spend thousands of dollars storing enough extra conversion kits for it to be stocked by brick and mortar stores? The answer is a resounding bloody no it's not worth it, the sales don't justify the expense of stocking enough just like it doesn't justify the expense of stocking that much of pretty much anything on the direct order list.

$500 is about 20 characters (or less if you're talking about scenery or expansion books or whatever), so LGS's can't order in more than about 20 special order characters a month (60% of a character a day). I imagine most LGS's could hit the monthly order limits pretty quickly (as in, with a very small amount of customers).

What's the justification for the reason? Balanced stock levels? If so, better stock management would fix it. The only reason I can see is to encourage customers to bypass LGS's for that stuff, and eventually bypass them completely. So the whole scheme seems entirely anti-LGS.

i would bother to comment on orktavius' rant but well enough people have pointed it out, well no lets re iterate, its not even MWG webstore thats closed its their BnM store as well add to that the MWG gaming club and as was stated 5000$ of direct only sales a month.. was web and bnm store based, but pls if you cna find another BnM store in the area to get in 5000$ worth of stock then do so, it might take 10 months to get it though.

The extremes he is now going to to defend GW is tedius in the extreme, and its starting to sound almost like a holy crusade. i love my 40k i love GW's product but i do not want to be in kirby's bed, especially seeing as how he tends to poop where he eats.

In this day and time, it's difficult to wrap my head around why GW is doing this. Every Warhammer mini (that's not a bootleg) originates from GW. If resellers have stock, it's because someone bought from GW at some point. GW is in direct control of how much stock is out there. Most manufacturers would be absolutely giddy to sell stock anyway they can.

If GW has it out for their own retailers, why not phase out all their contract obligations and sell direct to consumer. Maybe this is step one of that process, although I'm sure GW has a clause in that contract which says they can end the relationship at any time.

They seem to want it both ways. It's the most confused company I think I have ever seen.

I think that's an interesting question/point BitWraith--and I'm not sure how to answer it. Perhaps someone with a stronger business background could---but let's just theorize for a moment;


GW produces 10 units of X kit each year
GW understands from research that their customer base cycles into their games. Let's say every 5 years, after swearing off 40k, a vet comes back because of a new edition--new gaming group, etc. Let's also assume he/she sold their items before.
Say every year there is a rotating crop of vets--so 2 each year that sell, move on---2 each year that buy back in after their hiatus
Since there is a strong used army market due to the cyclic nature of veterans, it's relatively cheap/easy for a vet to get back into the game with a combination of used kits + bits to flesh out the army for the current edition. That used kit was still just one initial sale for GW proper.


However, if GW could eliminate the used market--along with bits--when a vet cycles back into the game, he/she will be forced to purchase new kits--which is a new sale for GW proper.



This is probably simplistic (and probably very wrong as well!)---but just thinking out possible GW rationale for their squeeze on independents. Then again, maybe it's as simple as---they've starved the beast to the point of needing the direct sales (removing the markup/retailer/shipping issues to independents). Overall, I would assume this would drastically shrink their market. I do not run a LGS--but from my experience in purchasing from LGS owners--it appears that hype/new shiny model moments is what drives sales. If they are going to continue to limit information, prerelease details and now even moving new releases to direct only--what do they expect independents to do?

This is also part of the reason Kickstarter makes me uncomfortable. I see it being used more and more as a preorder venue that establishes a proxy gaming community spread regionally (sometimes quite considerably). How is a LGS going to promote one of those games if the rush is already past?

Anyways...that's going Off Topic...but just thinking out loud in general about LGS. I feel bad for store owners trying to support tabletop games at this point. PP has distribution issues, GW seemingly wants to sell its own product and Kickstarter is removing hype/focus on new releases. I guess there's a reason why most every LGS I frequent has Magic plastered everywhere---it probably pays the lights/rent.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:


Anyways...that's going Off Topic...but just thinking out loud in general about LGS. I feel bad for store owners trying to support tabletop games at this point. PP has distribution issues, GW seemingly wants to sell its own product and Kickstarter is removing hype/focus on new releases. I guess there's a reason why most every LGS I frequent has Magic plastered everywhere---it probably pays the lights/rent.

It is hard to find a miniatures company who actually supports FLGS when you put it like this. There seem to be a lot of Mini companies who want to sell their own product. Or if they don't want to, they basically make it hard for FLGS to sell it either by distribution issues or policies which both result in a customer going to the internet and getting it 'immediately' opposed to waiting. It does feel like more and more that Wargaming has become a more 'club/indy event' driven hobby over casual store play because Magic cards can be sold immediately, have no real estate store needs, and are quick easy sales, and events run without the effort of wargaming events.

I know of stores which have banished wargamers simply because they didn't make money (and wargamers didn't pay where they play) and now those places primarily do other stuff. I have no ill will towards them.

They're having a similar problem as TSR back in the old days: selling a gaming system. TSR couldn't really make a lot of money except through books sales, and once everyone knew the rules they didn't need the books. TSR came out with 2nd edition D&D to drive some sales, and most old players didn't feel the need to buy (a lot still play 1st edition)

GW / Citadel solved this problem (along with Wizards of the Coast with Magic) buy tying the system to a physical product to sell. The problem with this (along with Magic too) is: a Space marine is a space marine no matter how you pose him. So, demand shrinks the longer the game is available.

The game also has to be understandable. I mentioned Magic: I think Magic is suffering from card fatigue right now - with way, way too many cards to have to pic from and special rules to understand. It may hurt their model in the end - and I think GW understands this with their own system. New units makes them money, but once it gets so complicated it will drive away players. So, they have to strike a balance.

To sum up all that rambling - when they're in a bit of the cycle where they need more profit, but don't feel like they can shore up sales with more complication in the game - they pull this sort of crud.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

GW produces 10 units of X kit each year
GW understands from research that their customer base cycles into their games. Let's say every 5 years, after swearing off 40k, a vet comes back because of a new edition--new gaming group, etc. Let's also assume he/she sold their items before.
Say every year there is a rotating crop of vets--so 2 each year that sell, move on---2 each year that buy back in after their hiatus
Since there is a strong used army market due to the cyclic nature of veterans, it's relatively cheap/easy for a vet to get back into the game with a combination of used kits + bits to flesh out the army for the current edition. That used kit was still just one initial sale for GW proper.

but that's just it, isn't it? GW's policies are driving more people out, and each time the players come back they see the inflated prices, so I see it more as 5 vets leaving and 2 vets returning. The other 1, maybe 2, vets that return, probably held onto their armies, and only need one or two purchases to update. If I had dark angels before the update, odds re, i just need to add 3 new units (incidentally, all of them fliers). When power smurfs get their update, again, all I will likely need to buy to keep a competitive edge (if i even played competitively before) is a stormguppy. I remember when I started, a box of 32 gaunts was $32 CAD. now its $35 CAD for 16 gaunts.... thats more than double the price, and it's only been 10 years. I cannot reasonably foresee someone getting back into the game at the same depth, or even willing to pay retail, even if it's brand new. Flavour of the season armies that GW releases every few months as an update pick up a new following, and as older armies fall out of favor, they end up on the auction block as fuel for purchases of the new army.... yadda yadda yadda: All i see is GW's policies fueling the second-hand market and driving it faster instead of slowing it down at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

 AgeOfEgos wrote:


Anyways...that's going Off Topic...but just thinking out loud in general about LGS. I feel bad for store owners trying to support tabletop games at this point. PP has distribution issues, GW seemingly wants to sell its own product and Kickstarter is removing hype/focus on new releases. I guess there's a reason why most every LGS I frequent has Magic plastered everywhere---it probably pays the lights/rent.

It is hard to find a miniatures company who actually supports FLGS when you put it like this. There seem to be a lot of Mini companies who want to sell their own product. Or if they don't want to, they basically make it hard for FLGS to sell it either by distribution issues or policies which both result in a customer going to the internet and getting it 'immediately' opposed to waiting. It does feel like more and more that Wargaming has become a more 'club/indy event' driven hobby over casual store play because Magic cards can be sold immediately, have no real estate store needs, and are quick easy sales, and events run without the effort of wargaming events.

I know of stores which have banished wargamers simply because they didn't make money (and wargamers didn't pay where they play) and now those places primarily do other stuff. I have no ill will towards them.

i believe the hope here though is that the companies that do get off the ground via kickstarter do end up in stores. Many that run their KS right, will have special expensive packages that only stores can support, which provide multiple copies of the game system for the store.. so in that sense, it cuts two ways.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:
PP has distribution issues,

Privateer's Press "distribution issues" have ended for the past 2 years! I wish people would stop mentioning them like they are still a current thing...

PhantomViper wrote:

 AgeOfEgos wrote:
PP has distribution issues,

Privateer's Press "distribution issues" have ended for the past 2 years! I wish people would stop mentioning them like they are still a current thing...

well....... its no longer a distribution issue, now its a stocking issue. PP was unable to match the demand so it didn't hit its full potential, and now it suffers. its not so much PP can't keep stores stocked so much as it is that people moved on in the vacancy, and the demand never really grew. My FLGS has had a small increase in stock, but by and large, it's been the same it's been for a while. I just don't think the stores are stocking it as heavily, which translates to people thinking it's a continuity of the old PP distribution issue.

Right..... MWG was doing $2k-$5k worth of direct order stuff from their brick and mortar store, not the online store they ran...gotcha.

Obviously trying to point out that GW is trying to protect it's brick and mortar trade partners who don't have a webstore or don't discount is pointless here. If GW ran the company the way you people wanted them to they would be out of business within 5 years.

I'm going back to looking at pretty models and have fun, enjoy wallowing if your circle-jerk of collective uninformed hate.

Orktavius wrote:
Right..... MWG was doing $2k-$5k worth of direct order stuff from their brick and mortar store, not the online store they ran...gotcha.

Obviously trying to point out that GW is trying to protect it's brick and mortar trade partners who don't have a webstore or don't discount is pointless here. If GW ran the company the way you people wanted them to they would be out of business within 5 years.

I'm going back to looking at pretty models and have fun, enjoy wallowing if your circle-jerk of collective uninformed hate.

I read that GW did 20 Mil last year. Doesn't sound like going out of business is imminent.

 BitWraith wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
Right..... MWG was doing $2k-$5k worth of direct order stuff from their brick and mortar store, not the online store they ran...gotcha.

Obviously trying to point out that GW is trying to protect it's brick and mortar trade partners who don't have a webstore or don't discount is pointless here. If GW ran the company the way you people wanted them to they would be out of business within 5 years.

I'm going back to looking at pretty models and have fun, enjoy wallowing if your circle-jerk of collective uninformed hate.

I read that GW did 20 Mil last year. Doesn't sound like going out of business is imminent.

AIG went from a $3.1b profit at the end of 2007 to a $99bn loss in 2008.
Have fun with your assumption.

Orktavius wrote:
enjoy wallowing if your circle-jerk of collective uninformed hate.

I prefer the term "alternative displays of affection in a group setting."

rigeld2 wrote:

 BitWraith wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
Right..... MWG was doing $2k-$5k worth of direct order stuff from their brick and mortar store, not the online store they ran...gotcha.

Obviously trying to point out that GW is trying to protect it's brick and mortar trade partners who don't have a webstore or don't discount is pointless here. If GW ran the company the way you people wanted them to they would be out of business within 5 years.

I'm going back to looking at pretty models and have fun, enjoy wallowing if your circle-jerk of collective uninformed hate.

I read that GW did 20 Mil last year. Doesn't sound like going out of business is imminent.

AIG went from a $3.1b profit at the end of 2007 to a $99bn loss in 2008.
Have fun with your assumption.

AIG didn't go out of business either.

I wasn't going to post again but Kronk.....that made me laugh

It may be anecdotal--but every LGS (4 in my area) plus the online stores I frequently use (Discount Games Inc. and The Warstore) have all had issues getting proper stock levels from Privateer. A cursory search on The Warstore right now displays this;

http://www.thewarstore.com/PrivateerPressOrderDelays.html

This has been an ongoing issue with PP for some time. Partly, I'm sure due to demand increasing as gamers move away from Fantasy and other tabletop games. Partly, I would theory, is due to poor planning.



Back on topic though, I agree it makes little sense to move orders away from LGS. I would think this would grow the hobby more than direct sales--and I would also think bits helps encourage hobby growth as well. Unless perhaps, GW sees the third party squeeze coming with the decreasing costs of CAD/mold startups--and the Kickstarter wave. Then again, I'm not a business major--so I don't know...what I don't know. Perhaps this makes the most sense from a bottom line perspective and the LGS is going to become a thing of the past.

Maybe gaming clubs + online sales is the future of our hobby?

One interesting thing that I kept hearing about with Privateer Press was that they hire people on for production before Adepticon/GenCon and then letting the people go afterwards.

I can't testify to the validity of that, but it kept cropping up shortly after every "stock shortage" that Privateer had.

 Kanluwen wrote:
One interesting thing that I kept hearing about with Privateer Press was that they hire people on for production before Adepticon/GenCon and then letting the people go afterwards.

I can't testify to the validity of that, but it kept cropping up shortly after every "stock shortage" that Privateer had.

O.o Really? Because when they started having their distribution issues 2 years ago, one of the reasons they were having issues is that they didn't want to hire people on for the holiday rush only to let them go.