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The Peripheral

I was looking at my rulebook because I was seeking advice on how to give my IG some close support assistance, and looked at the SoB chart on the allies. Their ally matrix is the weakest in the IoM, and will more readily ally themselves with xenos than of the BT's who are by far the closest in alignment to their agenda. Lore aside, the SoB is by far the most expensive army remaining as the only one that is almost entirely made up of 4th edition pewter models, they have an extremely outdated codex that has been given a band-aid in White Dwarf, and they continue to be pushed aside by GK's as stewards of the Imperium's soul and vanguards to the taint of chaos.

It seems to me that SoB are now on the precipice. Either they get a true update, their models streamlined into mass produced plastic kits like the rest of the GW line, or they fade into the background to join the squats, existing purely in the lore, but as more and more distant and unimportant characters until the community thinks of them as a distant memory in the dusty chambers of the Black Library.

To me, I understand the issue GW must face with the SoB. I'm going to safely say that the price of the models with a ad-hoc codex probably makes them sell poorly overall, especially compared to the well established and famous Space Marines. GW must weigh the option of reinvesting in the SoB like any other business, but I wonder, would the community respond well to an update, or would they prefer the SoB's to remain a permanent but statuesque fixture in 40k's lore?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/16 19:28:10


 
   
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I think they're on their way nowhere.

As far as "or they fade into the background", that's long, long since past.

My belief is that the models never sold all that well, and they've never been able to gain enough priority for a revamp. It costs resources (sculpters) and money to turn a model line into plastic. And Games Workshop still has other model ranges to redo, update, or expand which sell more models. I don't think the Sisters have ever gotten enough priority to get access to those material assets needed to get a new line and new rules.

But, at the same time, Games Workshop learned from the Squats debacle. You don't tell a sizable number of your fans to go screw themselves, and just abandon the army. A White Dwarf codex allows Sisters players to continue using their models in an army, and they can continue to sell Sisters models if ordered by the occasional customer.

I'm going to safely say that the price of the models with a ad-hoc codex probably makes them sell poorly overall,
You're actually reversing the causal relationship.

Selling poorly overall is what left them with expensive metal models and an ad-hoc codex.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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I sincerly hope they don't phase them out. They are such a huge part of Warhammer 40k. I mean, for Emperors sake, the Ordo Hereticus is a HUGE part of the Imperium and the Sisters of Battle is the militant arm of that organization. If GW started to phase them out, they would be ignoring something that is very important IMO.

Grey Knights are the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus, so why can't Sisters of Battle get a Codex too?

I would like to see them get a new Codex and new models and do not consider them to part of Warhammer 40k in the past tense.

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What the guy said two spaces up above is right how often has anyone really seen a sisters army being played unless there is and tell me if i am wrong but what gw is doing or has been doing is supply and demand and there is very little demand for a new sisters codex or a re cast of their old models and again please tell me if i am wrong. My chaos marines still are lacking our helbrute and it has been what 6 months since the codex has been released.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/16 19:50:01


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MMJ24 wrote:
What the guy said two spaces up above is right how often has anyone really seen a sisters army being played unless there is and tell me if i am wrong but what gw is doing or has been doing is supply and demand and there is very little demand for a new sisters codex or a re cast of their old models and again please tell me if i am wrong. My chaos marines still are lacking our helbrute and it has been what 6 months since the codex has been released.



The Helbrute is in the 40k starter set. You can find plenty of them for sale on eBay.

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The Peripheral

The problem I see is that the supply isn't there to even create a demand. The supply is exactly what Veteran Sergeant said, it's enough to keep folks interested, but not enough to progress the line.

 
   
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I think they are stuck on an infinite loop.
"They don't sell well, better scrap them."
"Don't do that, they're too popular."
"If they are popular, why don't they sell well?"
"Because they aren't plastic so they aren't cheap"
"Well we would make them plastic if they sold well!"

But there were many rumors of plastic sisters with people saying they've seen the models and such. I don't know how much is true, but I know that GW likes to sit on a stockpile of gold until the last possible moment to try and even out their sales across the year.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

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I have a hard time believing GW is going to drop the space nuns. They have been around since 2nd ed without being cut out (like slann and squats) and they have really cool models. I think that if GW is keeping an army like black templars around then sisters are here to stay too. I mean they had a dex for sisters not that long ago and added some new models even (penitent engines, repentia). I think the sisters are on the back-burner till the 4th edition codicies are all updated. Then Im expecting a new set of rules and hopefully a plastic kit (although just as likely a res kit of existing models because they are great). Then again i might be overly optimistic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/16 20:16:22


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MMJ24 wrote:
What the guy said two spaces up above is right how often has anyone really seen a sisters army being played unless there is and tell me if i am wrong but what gw is doing or has been doing is supply and demand and there is very little demand for a new sisters codex or a re cast of their old models and again please tell me if i am wrong. My chaos marines still are lacking our helbrute and it has been what 6 months since the codex has been released.




Consider yourself lucky on that.

They DID make a Helbrute (as mentioned, it's in DV and easy enough to get ahold of) just like the Deffkoptas don't have an official model outside of AOBR that i know of (unless they are stills elling that godawful ancient metal one).

Nids have been waiting on their Pods for years, and only just got their Tervigon.

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The Helbrute is in the 40k starter set. You can find plenty of them for sale on eBay.


sorry i wasn't clear i was meaning in the fact that we have several other options other than multi melta and a power fist but if we want to use those you have to model it or proxy it but i am very big on WYSIWYG.

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 DemetriDominov wrote:
The problem I see is that the supply isn't there to even create a demand. The supply is exactly what Veteran Sergeant said, it's enough to keep folks interested, but not enough to progress the line.

This is a 15 year product lifespan we're talking about here.


Sisters were introduced in 1997, along with Necrons (in 1998), with approximately the same number of models. They had the advantage of even having their own Codex, whereas the Necrons only had a pair of White Dwarf issues. The Necrons are a full fledged army with plastics. So you have to question: "What's the difference?"

The only rational answer is sales. Money drives everything in 40K. So if the Necrons have a modern product line, it is because that product sells well. You can't blame it on a lack of plastics. Back when Necrons and Sisters were introduced, the vast majority of models were still metal.

Ultimately, since the release of the Sisters, we've seen the introduction of Necrons, Tau, and Dark Eldar as armies for the 40K universe. And Black Templars if you want to be complete, but I'll leave them off simply because they're still Space Marines. Even with the relatively poor reception of the first generation Dark Eldar (mediocre models, mediocre performance), they still apparently sold well enough to drive an eventual revamp.

Another thing to think about is how Codex: Witch Hunters was presented. It wasn't even a Sisters of Battle codex. There were a bunch of new models released, but ultimately, you didn't even need to have any Sisters of Battle to play that list. It could be played as "Modified IGuard" or even as "Modified Space Marines". That says a lot about GW's confidence in that model line. They even made a second attempt to gauge the interest in a Sisters of Battle line by expanding the model range.


I think the Sisters just failed to capture a significant enough share of player imagination. You can (and people will, just wait) debate endlessly about why this is. I'd suggest it's very simply that they are female army in a male dominated hobby. They alos don't have their own niche to capture. Tau have anime fans. Dark Eldar have traditional fantasy elf/dark elf connections. Black Templars stole the religious nutballs niche, and the Black Templars are also Space Marines, the most popular product for 40K.



Ultimately, I think GW treats the Sisters as a dog product. One that has no chance of increasing its market share, but not costly enough to abandon. Basically one that breaks even, and doesn't consume the resources of more profitable model ranges.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/16 20:53:39


Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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Given the extreme popularity of Kingdom Death miniatures and other "pinup" style female minis from other companies, I'd reckon a proper plastic line with attractive, well-done sculpts would make SoB one of the most popular armies, up there with Necrons and MEQ.
   
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My wife is desperately awaiting a proper codex and plastic models. She does not like to expand her small army as the cost is so high. Damn metal figures...


 
   
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I think a lot of people forget that, Sisters currently have a 5th Edition codex. Yes it may only contain a hand full of units, it may only have metal models, but it is a 5th ed codex, and that's the way games workshop will see it, and I don;t see any 5th Ed codex's except for Space Marines and Nids getting an update before the rest of the 4th Ed ones.

   
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I'm going to bank on the tried and true argument that sex sells - especially in a male dominated hobby, and that SoB are an ... you guessed it... untapped resource. DE and even Eldar stole the show for exotic and demeaning figures, but SoB's definitely could have an allure of their own if GW thought it through.

I'll just leave this here since I'm on my way out to work:

Sexiness does not just mean proportions of flesh on certain parts of the body. Independence, success, and confidence are just as important as apperence; and having the SoB be the punching bag of the IoM's failures doesn't help promote the "coolness" of an army seemingly doomed for failure before anyone even opens an outdated codex or have to search for it online like a cheap knockoff of a "real" codex.

 
   
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Nottinghamshire, UK

Assuming one day the Sisters do the get the treatment of a proper Codex, plastic kits, etc (and I feel almost obliged to type "LOL" after that part), it'll be pretty disappointing if the only way GW can think of to sell their only female army is through the route of "sex sells." It'd be better for them to just go with what works for every other army that seems to sell OK: a proper, printed Codex with fluff that talks them up (NOT just letting them play second fiddle to the Astartes or Guard or be wiped out in yet another "heroic sacrifice" ), plastic kits that mean you don't have to buy several small metal blisters just to make one squad and some strong units that people will want to take in their lists. They should go in with the attitude of "we're going to make them look like a powerful army" rather than "we're going to try to make them sexy" and let that it be it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/16 22:00:26


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My guess is that GW probably does not have a clear idea of what to do about the SoB army. The chaos dwarves and squats were in limbo for quite a long time before GW axed them.

The problem the sisters face is that presently GW marketing is geared toward 11-15 year old boys and I dont see the SoB as having a lot of appeal to that demographic.

   
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USA

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm going to safely say that the price of the models with a ad-hoc codex probably makes them sell poorly overall,
Selling poorly overall is what left them with expensive metal models and an ad-hoc codex.
No, he had it right.

Games Workshop has done everything wrong in how they have marketed and sold Sisters of Battle. I don't think they've ever actually come up with a single good decision about them since they were created. They released a decent second edition codex-- and then immediately made it obsolete with third edition. They updated Sisters to third edition... in a new wave of poorly written, highly limited codices that the fans didn't like, and while still using the same exact old second edition models as before. Then come fourth edition Sisters got no update at all. Come near the end of fourth edition, GW did everything they could to try to prevent people from buying Sisters of Battle, raising the price, getting rid of the squad packs, getting rid of the bitz that would allow people to buy the specific models they wanted, and so on. Then there was the mess over the actual codex in fifth edition, where GW stopped selling the codex, and only finally released an edited PDF codex which sparked a controversy over whether or not it superceded the print codex, to which Games Workshop send multiple contradictory and ever-changing statements about. Then, finally, there was the so-called "codex" released in fifth edition-- which released exactly zero new models, got rid of a lot of thematic and fluffy elements of the army, and generally sucked a whole lot of ass. And through all of this, Sisters received effectively zero marketing even by GW standards-- not including the new codex, the number of White Dwarf issues which included Sisters in any way can still be counted on just one hand, even as they continue to sell overpriced older models from fething second edition in packs of three (in an army whose squad sizes range in 10-20 for troops, and 5-10 for others, and this doesn't include squad leaders, special wepaons, banners, etc, they're just a random trio of static, older models) for well over half the cost of what most armies would pay for a squad box that contains not only ten far superior models but also tons of bits.

Games Workshop has continually and repeatedly been a miserable failure when it comes to supporting Sisters of Battle and attempting to make money off of the army. I have no illusions that they will stop any time soon.

Although I hope they do.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/03/16 23:09:31


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Pretty much what Melissia said... although I challenge what TheCrazyCryptek said.

The Sisters are NOT the militant arm of the Ordo Hereticus. They are the Militant Arm of the Ecclesiarchy, which is an even bigger part of the 40k lore than any given Inquisitional order, especially the relatively unloved Hereticus (Xenos is famous because of Eisenhorn and Malleus is famous because of Grey Knights...)



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Holy Terra

Ok, several things:

-Melissia nailed this, GW are bunch of idiots and SoB suffered because of it.

-SoB are HUGE part of the lore giving how they are fighting arm of Imperial Church who also fight for the I when they need too. S othere is no way to "squat" them without rewriting huge part of the fluff.

-Few years ago one GW men who works in high staff said that GW will never again squat an army. So SoB are save when it comes to that ( ask Lynata for details ).

-GW decided to update EVERY codex to 6'th edition, so we should see SoB 6'th edition FULL codex next year or the year after that. Now entire Sister army is in metal when everybody is being made in plastic or finecast. You can bet when SoB get updated with plastic models that many will start to collect them.

All in all - I pray to the God Emperor for Sisters...

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If there were plastic Sisters of Battle, I'd buy an army in a heartbeat. It is not even about the price of the metal models. I love to convert, but with metal it is just such a pain.

   
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The Beach

 Melissia wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm going to safely say that the price of the models with a ad-hoc codex probably makes them sell poorly overall,
Selling poorly overall is what left them with expensive metal models and an ad-hoc codex.
No, he had it right.
The funny part is, from here on out, Melissia will go on to explain that I was correct.

Games Workshop has done everything wrong in how they have marketed and sold Sisters of Battle. I don't think they've ever actually come up with a single good decision about them since they were created. They released a decent second edition codex-- and then immediately made it obsolete with third edition. They updated Sisters to third edition... in a new wave of poorly written, highly limited codices that the fans didn't like, and while still using the same exact old second edition models as before. Then come fourth edition Sisters got no update at all. Come near the end of fourth edition, GW did everything they could to try to prevent people from buying Sisters of Battle, raising the price, getting rid of the squad packs, getting rid of the bitz that would allow people to buy the specific models they wanted, and so on. Then there was the mess over the actual codex in fifth edition, where GW stopped selling the codex, and only finally released an edited PDF codex which sparked a controversy over whether or not it superceded the print codex, to which Games Workshop send multiple contradictory and ever-changing statements about. Then, finally, there was the so-called "codex" released in fifth edition-- which released exactly zero new models, got rid of a lot of thematic and fluffy elements of the army, and generally sucked a whole lot of ass. And through all of this, Sisters received effectively zero marketing even by GW standards-- not including the new codex, the number of White Dwarf issues which included Sisters in any way can still be counted on just one hand, even as they continue to sell overpriced older models from fething second edition in packs of three (in an army whose squad sizes range in 10-20 for troops, and 5-10 for others, and this doesn't include squad leaders, special wepaons, banners, etc, they're just a random trio of static, older models) for well over half the cost of what most armies would pay for a squad box that contains not only ten far superior models but also tons of bits.

Games Workshop has continually and repeatedly been a miserable failure when it comes to supporting Sisters of Battle and attempting to make money off of the army. I have no illusions that they will stop any time soon.

Although I hope they do.
This may well be true. Though, like I said, it still assumes the statement I made was correct. It simply affixes the blame for poor Sisters sales to Games Workshop's business decisions, instead of on the consumers for not being attracted to the product and not buying it. I can see how this version is more palatable to Sisters players, since it means their army was done wrong, and not a failed product. Either way.

The problem is, it makes a huge assumption. That the decision that the Sisters weren't slow sellers in their window. Remember, the key link in this argument comes between the 1997 release of Codex: SoB and the 1998 release of 3rd Edition. The problem is, 3rd Edition codex delays didn't kill any other armies. Tyranids didn't get one for almost 2 years. Eldar had to wait a year and a half.

Necrons had to wait four years. Four years to get a real codex for their models. I'll let that sink in for a second.

Okay. Ready? Good, Let's continue. Essentially, whatever assumed marketing failures you attribute to the Sisters of Battle apply equally to the Necrons. And yet the Necrons exist as a modern army.

The truth of the matter is, there was no marketing failure for the Sisters. They were pushed quite extensively back in 1997. Full sized codex book, front cover of White Dwarf, brand new shiny models. The result? Well, we don't have the sales numbers, but one thing seems fairly realistic: Nobody bought them in significant numbers. I work in marketing for a company that owns multiple, multi-million dollar retail websites. The company sticks with products that sell, and discontinues ones that don't.

Why? Because you don't throw good money after bad.

There's no point. Whatever "marketing failures" you perceive in 4th Edition? Irrelevant. By that time, the decision had already been made to let the line languish as a failed product. See, it's a 15 year product life. Everything past 2004? That's all the result of how it performed prior to that. The line was pushed in 1997. No significant sales. The line was revamped and expanded in 2003. No significant sales. At that point, simple analysis probably told Games Workshop "Sisters of Battle don't sell models very well". You can be upset about that basic truth. That's fair. I'm sure a lot of people wanted a second Season of Terra Nova. I don't know why, it was an awful show. There's a reason why the Sisters were the last 3rd Edition Codex. And that reason is sales. Sisters fans like to foist blame on Games Workshop for all the woes of the army. But the truth is, if the model range had been as popular as the Necrons, it would have gotten a 3rd Edition Codex earlier. If it had sold models as well as the Necrons, it would have gotten plastic models. Necrons didn't get a 4th Edition codex either. It exists as a modern army. Why? Sales.

Codex books are for closers.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
it still assumes the statement I made was correct.
No, that's just you presuming to speak for me. Please do not do so. You have not earned that privilege.

Furthermore, none of your arguments actually have any merit, because they never actually bothered to try to market and sell Sisters. Even when they were first released as an army in second edition, they were ignored by GW's marketing division.

In order to successfully argue "don't throw good money after bad", you first have to prove that it was actually bad money and not corporate incompetence.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2013/03/17 00:41:30


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 Melissia wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
it still assumes the statement I made was correct.
No, that's just you being arrogant and presuming to speak for me.
I'm not speaking for you. I'm telling you that's exactly what you did, whether you understand that fact or not.

Furthermore, none of your arguments actually have any merit, because they never actually bothered to try to market and sell Sisters..
If you're just going to lie about stuff, there's really no point in discussing this any further.



Never bothered.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If you're just going to lie about stuff
I see you still are not actually capable of reading my posts.

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The Beach

I'm reading them. You're just not saying anything that holds up under scrutiny, and that's why you're getting so frustrated.

Your arguments are based from how you feel about the situation and not about the facts of the situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Want to see how the Necrons were marketed?


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/17 00:53:32


Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm reading them.
As usual, I will help you read.
 Melissia wrote:
not including the new codex, the number of White Dwarf issues which included Sisters in any way can still be counted on just one hand
So, the first part of this sentence, states "not including the new codex"-- the "codex" was spread over two issues of white dwarf, but even then, it was a half-assed affair which actually used screenshots of screenshots that were in C:WH and C:SoB from previous editions, showing how little effort that they put in to it (but really, given how lame it is, that's no surprise).

Second part states "the number of White Dwarf issues which included Sisters in any way", which was four, by my count, aside from the two issues which the codex was unnecessarily split over (and which contained contradictory stats and information about the various units). That includes ANY representation of Sisters... pictures, stories, fluff bits, even just Sisters being included as enemies to be killed.

And the third part states: "can still be counted on just one hand". I have five fingers in my hand, and there are four examples.

When I specifically stated that Sisters had a very small amount of presence in White Dwarf articles, showing a White Dwarf cover does not invalidate my argument. It just proves that you don't actually bother to read my posts before you respond to them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/17 01:00:18


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The Beach

You're still missing the point Mel.

White Dwarf, like Codex Books, are for closers. Sell the models, get more coverage.

The reality is, and I know you won't accept it so this is the for the benefit of the other readers so they aren't fooled by your ramblings, the Sisters got a codex book. They got a White Dwarf cover. They got promoted. They had 21 models and a faction specific tank.

They didn't sell models.

The Necrons got 10 models and a corner of a White Dwarf.

They sold models.


http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Sisters_of_Battle_-_Collectors_Guide

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2008/12/19/13280_sm-White%20Dwarf.jpg

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/17 01:08:13


Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

True Scale Space Marines: Tutorial, Posing, Conversions and other madness. The Brief and Humorous History of the Horus Heresy

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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
You're still missing the point Mel.
I'm not missing your point. I'm dismissing it, as it is made only by ignoring the actual facts of the issue, then pointing at a single white dwarf as if I didn't already mention it.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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You're dismissing it because you can't refute it. You don't understand that single White Dwarf is the crux of the entire argument. It's irrelevant how many White Dwarf magazines the Sisters got over the last 15 years. It doesn't matter one bit. They didn't get mentioned in White Dwarf because they didn't sell. Your attachment to this idea shows a critical lack of understanding of product marketing fundamentals. They got promoted, and they didn't sell, so no effort was made to further promote them. But that's just elementary business.


Answer the question:

Prior to 2002, why did the Necrons succeed and the Sisters fail?

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

True Scale Space Marines: Tutorial, Posing, Conversions and other madness. The Brief and Humorous History of the Horus Heresy

The Ultimate Badasses: Colonial Marines 
   
 
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