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Amaya wrote:Conveniently ignoring the fact the Imperial Army also splintered during the Heresy as did the Mechanicum...

Not at all.
But you're ignoring that the Ecclesiarchy has more troops at its disposal than just the Sororitas.

Also, the Imperial Army wasn't as important then as the Imperial Guard is post-Heresy, from what I've read. Auxiliaries <-> primary military force, etc.
Either way, there's a reason that quite a number of people were going mad when Thor said "Okay, I'll disband everything, but I'm gonna keep these 4.000 Sisters here".

Furyou Miko wrote:Casualty rates were pulled from my battlefield experience - I usually lose the majority of my army even when I win, due to a preference for aggressive tactics.

Aggressive sounds fitting for the Sororitas.
That said, I suppose most engagements would not be as fair as a game of 40k TT. Just like the Space Marines don't tend to attack a foe with equal strength, but rather focus on a weak spot in the defense and punch a hole through it.

Furyou Miko wrote:The Ecclesiarchy seems more the type to push their loophole as far as they can get away with than to handicap themselves.

Absolutely! But perhaps only over a long period of time rather than all at once. Slowly eroding resistance against a resurgence in Ecclesiarchal power. Like, waiting 2.500 years until founding two new Major Orders.

Furyou Miko wrote:I'd missed the part about five years training - would this be done in the Sanctorum or Prioris, or could it be farmed out to any Convent, do you think? Where does the 500 figure come from?

The location of training is hard to say. Ephrael Stern had her novitiate in the Convent Prioris on Terra, yet her eventual assignment with the Order of the Martyred Lady saw her transferred to the Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia VII. Undoubtedly, the two Major Convents would also be very well equipped to facilitate the training of new recruits (better than some frontier convent), and given that all Minor Orders are connected to one of the Major Orders it may be reasonable to assume that this means distribution of reinforcements is organised by an administrative section in the maternal Ordo Majoris the lesser convent split from.

On the other hand, however, I very much like the idea of novices "helping out" with the day-to-day running of a convent, performing menial duties and receiving some hands-on training, perhaps even a "trial by fire" like a squad of novices with lasguns and carapace going on a mutant hunt in a Hive.

I have a feeling that my preferences might clash with GW's interpretation, though, for I have to admit that it makes more sense for those mini-convents on the ass-end of the galaxy to receive only fully-fledged junior Sisters rather than novices they'd have to train themselves. Perhaps a compromise could be found by splitting it up? After all, some Minor Orders are larger than others - there are places with hundreds of Sisters enforcing the local Cardinal's will just like there are places where you have only a single aging Battle Sister playing shrine maiden for a mini-temple with a relic on some forgotten world. This may be one of those rare cases where I appreciate the freedom GW leaves us when it comes to fleshing out the world.

As far as the 500 figure is concerned, this (as well as the age of recruitment and ascension) is from two archived articles that used to be hosted on the GW website:

Villainy & Infamy : Ephrael Stern

Inquisitor RPG : Sister Anastasia

It's rather cool stuff with a lot of interesting detail, so enjoy the read! They are not well known even amongst Sisters fans, which made me feel particularly fortunate when I dug them up. I keep combing the interwebs for stuff exactly like this ... and occasionally I get lucky.

xraytango wrote:

Matney X wrote:
Maybe they'll pull something like they just did with Tau.

On Thursday, they'll say "you can no longer sell GW stuff online, period, or we'll sue you for unlawfully selling our product," followed by a huge release of Sisters stuff on Friday. That we'll have to buy directly from GW.

That they will only produce 500 kits for and it will sell out in 2 hrs.

A handful would go to actual players, while the rest would go to eBay sellers, bits sites (by whatever scandalous way they're going to continue operating), and GW collectors[read:hoarders].

Cool, I'll take a look at those. ^^

Ephrael Stern, though... there's a confusing one. She was, after all, a member of the Order of the Blessed Enquiry, who (while not specified) appear to have been either Pronatus or Dialogous. She was then either inducted into or restored to the Martyred Lady as a Seraphim after the first time she was investigated for Taint (when she physically ripped a bloodletter out of a possessed Sister). That's not from the article, it's from the first chapter of Daemonifuge.

Daemonifuge has its own issues, however, such as an Inquisitor infiltrating the Black Templars to the point where his own squadmates thought he was a Space Marine.

Furyou Miko wrote:Ephrael Stern, though... there's a confusing one. She was, after all, a member of the Order of the Blessed Enquiry, who (while not specified) appear to have been either Pronatus or Dialogous. She was then either inducted into or restored to the Martyred Lady as a Seraphim after the first time she was investigated for Taint (when she physically ripped a bloodletter out of a possessed Sister). That's not from the article, it's from the first chapter of Daemonifuge.

That's not how I understood it from the book. Rather, that Ephrael was part of either an earlier investigating force. Note how Ephrael first identifies herself whilst still held in chains during her interrogation by Silas Hand, and before receiving the Rite of Reaffirmation: "I am Ephrael Stern, Sister of Battle."

Most remarkable, however, is this line:
"When you and your comrades arrived, Asteroth was waiting and claimed those of you not strong enough to resist him. Sister slew Sister - it was not long before you alone remained."
- the Screaming Cage during the psychic "link"

tl;dr: the Sisters Pronatus became the Screaming Cage, whereas the Battle Sisters arriving later were either killed or turned into Chaos Sisters, with the sole exception of Ephrael.

I also don't think you can become a Seraphim in such a short amount of time (Canoness Ramientes' company and Inquisitor Hand departed to Parnis fairly soon after it became clear there's more to Ephrael's story), and there's no actual reason to make a Non-Militant Sister into one either when she did not qualify for assignment to the Orders Militant in the first place. The Seraphim are the elite of the Orders Militant, and I would presume it takes many months of training to operate the jump-pack alone.

Furyou Miko wrote:Daemonifuge has its own issues, however, such as an Inquisitor infiltrating the Black Templars to the point where his own squadmates thought he was a Space Marine.

Heh, I remember that one.
It can be rationalised (Book 2 establishes he was a recent addition to the squad assigned for the recovery mission), but I agree it's fishy ... the usual stuff when you begin looking outside studio sources, I guess. I still love the series just for its story and the artwork.

I lend Ephrael's article on the website a bit more credence than the book itself, as the Villainy & Infamy series appeared on GW's own website and White Dwarf, which does show a bit of endorsement (similar to things like the Blood Pact article etc ... occasionally, GW does adopt bits and pieces from licensed material). Parnis was also mentioned in Andy Hoare's Liber Sororitas article in WD #293:
"Some Orders Pronatus are known to have given all in the defence of the artefacts they guard or study, and the fate of the Order of Blessed Enquiry is a salutory lesson in the risks involved with the evil of the Ruinous Powers, even if the intent is to safeguard Humanity from their corrupting influence."

OK, I'll buy into that interpretation. Makes more sense than how I was reading it - although I still refuse to believe that they were outright Chaos Sisters. Confused, illusioned and tortured, sure - but they probably thought they were attacking daemons.

Furyou Miko wrote:Makes more sense than how I was reading it - although I still refuse to believe that they were outright Chaos Sisters. Confused, illusioned and tortured, sure - but they probably thought they were attacking daemons.

Oh, that was referring to those twisted "daemonified" Sisters that were summoned by the Keeper to deal with Ramientes' force.

That said, I prefer to see them as daemon-possessed corpses rather than turned Sororitas - this interpretation fits better to how quickly they changed their appearance, and better preserves the Sisters' innate resilience against corruption. Plus, the Screaming Cage did say that only Ephrael remained, insinuating that everyone else was dead.

Zombies works too. ^^

I meant during the original mission though. Sisters are practically immune to moral corruption because of their blinding faith, but sadly that doesn't render them immune to illusiory psychic powers.

Agreed. The Shield of Faith even used to represent this in the tabletop, cancelling out minor psychic powers and granting them a bonus to resist others.

Needless to say, Ashtaroth would be a fairly powerful opponent though ...

 Amaya wrote:
Even ten million Adepta Sororitas would amount to, at most, a slight annoyance to the Imperium should they rebel. The Tau would remain a much bigger threat and they are the weakest of the xenos.

The thing to remember about the Sisterhood is what they represent to the average citizen of the Imperium as a whole. While the Space Marines are mythical figures, they live apart from the average person. The Ecclesiarchy? The Ecclesiarchy is *everywhere*, and affects the lives of every citizen in the Imperium. If the Ecclesiarchy decides that someone, somewhere, needs to burn, a few fire-and-brimstone preachers in the pulpit can raise armies of the faithful from the local populace, including people of considerable power (Rogue Traders, Chartist Captains, Planetary Governors, etc) who can, caught up in the rising tide of righteous indignation, provide necessary materials for this militia (not to mention inter-stellar transport and similar resources).

If the Sisterhood was a much more prevalent organization, with members in numbers on every world, they could pose a very real threat to the Imperium, should they decide that the High Lords (or any other faction) are not performing their duties in keeping with the will of the God-Emperor. Just look back four thousand years and look at what one guy started.

How can the Adepta Sororitas be a prevelant organization if there are only 42,000 of them?

Even if there were ten million of them, that's only ten per world Imperial World. Most worlds would go centuries with never seeing a Battle Sister. We're talking about a population in the trillions defended by a military in the billions. Even if a Sister was somehow worth one hundred guardsmen, they'd still amount to less than 10% of the Imperium's fighting strength.

Because they have the might of the Ecclesiarchy behind them, which is, in turn, supported by the faith of trillions of Imperial Citizens. They are, in many ways, representatives of the Ecclesiarchy, servants of the God-Emperor who move amongst mortal men, and certain factions of them (notably Famulous and Hospitaler) are popular amongst certain segments of the population out of all proportion to their numbers. As representatives of the Ecclesiarchy, the Sisterhood has the adoration and devotion of Imperial society at large. At her word, people will set aside their work, their families, their very livelihoods to join her in defending the Imperial Faith (whatever flavor it may have locally). Sure, the IG may have billions of soldiers, but they're never in one place at one time... and if the local IG Lord General is also a man/woman of faith? Well, that lone Sister may have just received the support of an entire Crusade. Even if the IG isn't there, she may end up with a Hive World's entire PDF rallying behind her. Even though the AdMech controls the forges of a Forge World, their indentured servants actually run the machines, and these are regular folks. "Workers control the means of production" and all of that.

As the saying goes: "No army is big enough to conquer the galaxy. But faith alone can overturn the universe."

Amaya wrote:Even if a Sister was somehow worth one hundred guardsmen, they'd still amount to less than 10% of the Imperium's fighting strength.

How is this a problem?
The Imperial Guard is responsible for the defense of the Imperium. Marines and Sisters are useful add-ons.

I had an amusing thought earlier. To represent the Sisters' incredible faith protecting them from enemy psykers... all Sisters count as Mastery Level 4 Psykers, but do not have access to any power tables.

This is silly, of course (you could just say "Deny the witch on a roll of 3+, modified by the enemy psyker's mastery level"), but the thought tickled me.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I had an amusing thought earlier. To represent the Sisters' incredible faith protecting them from enemy psykers... all Sisters count as Mastery Level 4 Psykers, but do not have access to any power tables.

This is silly, of course (you could just say "Deny the witch on a roll of 3+, modified by the enemy psyker's mastery level"), but the thought tickled me.

I actually brought that up right after 6th came up.

Mine was a bit different, basically I said that SoB squads could Deny the Witch on whatever roll they would make their Faith check on.

(so 5+ normally, +1 if casualties, +1 for Sgt, +1 for IC)

IMO, the Sisters should get a default DtW roll in most cases through some means, whether this is a Faith power or Purity Seals on their armor or simply Armor of Contempt.

I had toyed around with a psychic-suppression effect for their units, to a range of 6", but could never get something that was feasible and easy to use, but also balanced. Was thinking it might make a good AoF, "Abhor the Witch" that caused affected enemy units to take an automatic Peril when using psychic powers, or lose the benefits of previously-cast psychic powers... but never really got past the planning stage.

 Amaya wrote:
We're talking about a population in the trillions defended by a military in the billions.

You're pretty heavily lowballing the populations there. Going off the most solid numbers there are, one gets a Guard population somewhere in the range of 2-20 trillion (approximately one billion regiments, of an indeterminate number of thousands of guardsmen each), and a population in excess of one thousand times that (the Guard codex giving a recruitment rate of ~.1% as particularly high (one hundred million per year from a population in the hundreds of billions).

Of course, extrapolating numbers like that also gives us several trillion Eldar, and a Tau population in the tens of millions...

Actually Tau populations in the tens of millions makes sense if you only count the fire caste.

I just wanted to post this from Faeit 212:

Sisters of Battle
I swear they started these right after Grey Knights.

I have never been in a position to "spot" any sculpts, or 'see anything being worked on'. (Ever)
I heard they had started work on a dex and models for Sisters right after I heard they had started work on Grey Knights ... consequently I assumed we would be seeing the results of this project pretty soon after Grey Knights were released ... It never happened. I guess the WD dex was the result of the work being done on the book ... I have no idea what happened to the minis. There were some rumours at the time that they were not happy with them .... but it was nothing I ever heard anything about one way or the other. As far as I am concerned ... it remains a mystery.

What the hell GW? You start working on army two years ago and done nothing since?

Two years is normal. Supposedly, they start writing the next version of a codex before they finish the previous one.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Two years is normal. Supposedly, they start writing the next version of a codex before they finish the previous one.

Supposedly, every sentence starting with "supposedly" is false.

There have been rumors of sisters since I started 15 years ago. I'm not going to hold my breath.

Since I started 40k it was, " Sisters will be updated just around the corner." as well as, " Dark Eldar are next". And, while I suppose they were both updated, I'm still waiting on new Sisters models.

Just to clarify, Sisters will be getting a new codex at some point? I don't mind if it takes a while to be released, but if they're going to be phased out then there's no point in building a Sisters army anyway.

Troike wrote:
Just to clarify, Sisters will be getting a new codex at some point? I don't mind if it takes a while to be released, but if they're going to be phased out then there's no point in building a Sisters army anyway.

Yes. No. Maybe. We don't know. GW has said that they won't squat another army, but that doesn't really matter.

Troike wrote:
Just to clarify, Sisters will be getting a new codex at some point? I don't mind if it takes a while to be released, but if they're going to be phased out then there's no point in building a Sisters army anyway.

 pretre wrote:
There have been rumors of sisters since I started 15 years ago. I'm not going to hold my breath.

Yyyyyyyep.

On the subject of codex releases: There's a reason long-term Sisters players are known as "The Faithful".

Troike wrote:
Just to clarify, Sisters will be getting a new codex at some point? I don't mind if it takes a while to be released, but if they're going to be phased out then there's no point in building a Sisters army anyway.

The answer is kumquat. In other words no one has a clue.

Okay. The way I see it is something like this:

So far the 6th edition releases we've seen have been to armies that needed more updates in rules then in models. Sure they needed new units, but the model range themselves were still solid. (( Look at DA and demons for example)) So they are pushing out the armies that don't need a lot of updating in an effort to get all armies updated to 6th.

On the other hands: Sisters of Battle need alot of work. They need a complete reworking of the whole model range, not just some new flashy units.

There are players like myself, that the only reason they don't collect SoB is because they don't want to shell out 17 usd for 3 pewter minis, and virtually haunt Ebay for the WD codex.

... they also haven't had a real honest Codex in... gods... how many years now?

 Psienesis wrote:
... they also haven't had a real honest Codex in... gods... how many years now?

SOB have not had a codex since 2nd edition. They have had:

Codex: SOB 2nd edition
BBB List in 3rd edition
Chapter Approved WD Codex in 3rd edition
Codex: Witchhunters in 3rd
WD Codex in 5th

Best was probably CA WD Codex in 3rd.