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Sure he is venting, but he's making a very valid claim.

Everyone who frequently goes to tournaments will face flyers. Lots of them. They are expensive and were made overpowered at will in order to increase sales. I am utterly disgusted by any IG player spamming Vendettas or Necrons with mass Night Scythes. I have never given any of those guys given 0 fairness points and in the entire local meta, those guys tend to end up with 0.4 sportsmanship on average and they thus have barely won any tournament. A few guys don't even show up anymore and only go to GW tournaments (slight remark here: GW tournaments suck monkey balls) - which is better for the game overall.

This being said, those guys in need of dire compensation are the minority though, most of the time, I see strong, but fair lists with max 2-3 flyers (excluding Vendettas, again) and a very clear image of TAC,well-rounded lists.

6th is a great edition, it's only flyers breaking balance - but they do so hard. The best games I have yet played did not include any flyer and were awesome games with well-rounded lists.

To the OP:

I would like to share with you a similar story to your own. I play Sisters of Battle. Everyone agrees that Sisters are a "sub-optimal" army.

Last week, I played a game against a Grey Knight list that consisted of three inquisitorial stormtrooper squads and two death cult/crusader squads, the latter two being mounted in Storm Ravens, with a pair of Dreadknights backing them up.

I had: Two big Battle Sister squads, a Living Saint who couldn't be bothered, a Repentia squad, a Melta-Dominion squad and two Retributor squads (one with heavy flamers, one with heavy bolters).

Like you, on turn one I swept across the board, annihilated two of his IST squads and left him with just Coteaz and the third IST squad with its three plasma cannons.

The Storm Ravens arrived. They did a little damage, then disgorged the Death Cultists straight into my units with only Overwatch between me and certain death. Overwatch helped a little, but inevitably the first scoring unit was wiped. The second survived by the skin of its teeth because the charge failed.

They then proceeded to meltagun one of the Ravens out of the sky, because AV12 or no it still has to Hover to be an assault vehicle. The other Raven went down to rending Heavy Bolters, but I could have also used the Dominions, who were busy engaging the Dreadknights.

The whole game was over by turn 5. I did lose, but it was hardly a slaughter. I did well for myself - by the end of the game, all the GK player had on the field was Coteaz' squad, a Dreadknight and three Death Cultists who were sparring with the Saint. Hardly a suddenly murderous sweep.

Are you sure you didn't just "give up" and stop playing your best when the fliers showed up and had a good first turn?

It's true that I was venting and a lot of you echo what one of my longtime 40k partners is saying...."Flyers are part of the game...accept it."

i just have a hard time accepting it.

Those of you that disagree with this statement though...

Some of you may disagree and think that I just need to learn 6th, but I tell you....there was a time where ALL armies were valid in this game. Where an inferior army...well run...could still come out on top of a vastly superior competetive force if run masterfully. This just isn't the case anymore....and that is my problem with 40k now.

....I feel that you're wrong if you disagree with this.

I know anecdotal evidence on a forum is hard for people to swallow, but I've got extensive tourney experience here in the states....I've got a good idea what has been competetive in past editions of the game. Myself I used to specialise in taking what was considered "sub-optimal".

Back two Dark Angel codex editions ago (not the current OR the last edition of the DA codex) I ran a tri-raider Deathwing only list all the time. This was back in the day of Dark Eldar Dark Lance spamming and rhino rushing.

This Deathwing list went to the chicago GW/GT several years ago where I "masterfully" ran it to get 4 or 5 wins out of the 5 or 6 game tournament. I went on to earn 2nd place best sportsmanship that year and did receive an award for it.

In that day, it was simply crazy to take that army. It was by no means competetive, but I ran it and ran it well....and always had a good chance to win...even fighting against Dark Lance spam and Iron Warrior lists with 4 Heavy support choices. (considered hella broken). Even lost games were still GAMES at least, where both players could have fun...where a 1 sided defeat was rare if you REALLY knew your list.

Yea....try taking a list like that today. You just simply cannot take whatever you want and not get totally boned. With Flyer spam, GW is forcing your hand to buy certain models...I really hate that.

Fair enough though, I just cannot understand how people actually think this is "better". I'll keep pounding away, although it seems clear that if I want to play competetively at all, I'll be needing to pick up two more dark eldar flyers, go back to my Grey Knights and buy 2 more Ravens, or get another Dark Angel army and spam Flakk missles.

 zachwho wrote:

De have decent flyers, buy some. I mean honestly you didn't expect your 3rd de army to be viable forever did you?

Expensive Av 10 flyers aren't decent. Like the rest of the Dark Eldar codex they simply tend to be inferior to what other armies have.

Mythra wrote:Stuff that messes up their reserves coming in can be really big now. I won my last tournament b/c of that. I rolled Warlord trait of -1 to his reserve rolls and he rolled Warlord and his unit get outflank. His Warlord in a landraider w/ a squad of TH/SS Termies never showed. I tabled him turn 3 and didn't lose a single nid. Wasn't pretty.

So, you're saying you won a game because your roll on the random table trumped his roll on the random table. Well, glad to see that there's still some skill in the game.

GimbleMuggernaught wrote:... However, it's my opinion that 6th edition is one of the better editions of the game, in terms of intuitiveness and fun.

Well, it's really intuitive that my guys sometimes forget how to charge when they're 4 inches from my opponent, and yet can pinpoint the exact distance at which their guns are optimal.

As an aside, any review of a game using the word "fun" should be immediately discounted. Your idea of fun might be rolling on a random table and laughing about what wacky thing happened to your guys, but my idea of a fun game involves a mental challenge, not table rolling.

Deadnight wrote:

How about fifth? Talk to tau players. the whole damned army was basically nerfed.

Haha, yeah. Combination of Ork codex + 5th edition killed Tau (and Necrons). It was almost impossible to get any damage done through ubiquitous 4+ cover saves, as soon as enemy got close your army was multi-assaulted and wiped completely and you had no chance to do anything. I mean, you could take one glance at enemy's army list and pretty much concede right there. And then came Blood Angels with their FNP Assault marines...

That's why I always get a good laugh out of these "in the past everything was perfect but flyers ruined the game!" -complaints.

 Redbeard wrote:

Mythra wrote:Stuff that messes up their reserves coming in can be really big now. I won my last tournament b/c of that. I rolled Warlord trait of -1 to his reserve rolls and he rolled Warlord and his unit get outflank. His Warlord in a landraider w/ a squad of TH/SS Termies never showed. I tabled him turn 3 and didn't lose a single nid. Wasn't pretty.

So, you're saying you won a game because your roll on the random table trumped his roll on the random table. Well, glad to see that there's still some skill in the game.

GimbleMuggernaught wrote:... However, it's my opinion that 6th edition is one of the better editions of the game, in terms of intuitiveness and fun.

Well, it's really intuitive that my guys sometimes forget how to charge when they're 4 inches from my opponent, and yet can pinpoint the exact distance at which their guns are optimal.

As an aside, any review of a game using the word "fun" should be immediately discounted. Your idea of fun might be rolling on a random table and laughing about what wacky thing happened to your guys, but my idea of a fun game involves a mental challenge, not table rolling.

Amen Brother! TESTIFY!

This +100

 Cortez667 wrote:
Interesting point: do smoke launchers work against vector strike?

No, because Smoke Launchers give you a cover save and Vector Strikes ignore cover.

By the logic in the original post Space Wolves are crap and can't compete because they don't have flyers. Sure they can ally some in, but 1 Vendetta is not going to win you an air war. With every edition there is always something that is seen a lot more than other things, last edition it was transports. From your post, it appears that for you it is now flyers. I'm coming from the UK so it's a little different here, we're allowing a lot of Forge World which means less flyers due to the increased access to skyfire, but I can still empathise. If you're seeing a lot of flyers, adapt to them, you don't necessarily have to take a lot of flyers yourself to win, simply find ways in which you can ignore them better, I know that this is difficult when your opponent has so many but experiment and eventually you'll find ways to combat them, I have and it's working well.

 Redbeard wrote:

Well, it's really intuitive that my guys sometimes forget how to charge when they're 4 inches from my opponent, and yet can pinpoint the exact distance at which their guns are optimal.

As an aside, any review of a game using the word "fun" should be immediately discounted. Your idea of fun might be rolling on a random table and laughing about what wacky thing happened to your guys, but my idea of a fun game involves a mental challenge, not table rolling.

How was it any different in the 5th? I recall number of games decided on who rolled better on his last Run or Assault roll (most assaults were/are through DT) and made it to the objective.

 Redbeard wrote:

As an aside, any review of a game using the word "fun" should be immediately discounted.

Respect your opinion and all, but is this going to boil down to a "what I think is fun is right and what you think is fun is wrong" kinda thing?

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sure he is venting, but he's making a very valid claim.

Everyone who frequently goes to tournaments will face flyers. Lots of them. They are expensive and were made overpowered at will in order to increase sales. I am utterly disgusted by any IG player spamming Vendettas or Necrons with mass Night Scythes. I have never given any of those guys given 0 fairness points and in the entire local meta, those guys tend to end up with 0.4 sportsmanship on average and they thus have barely won any tournament. A few guys don't even show up anymore and only go to GW tournaments (slight remark here: GW tournaments suck monkey balls) - which is better for the game overall.

This being said, those guys in need of dire compensation are the minority though, most of the time, I see strong, but fair lists with max 2-3 flyers (excluding Vendettas, again) and a very clear image of TAC,well-rounded lists.

6th is a great edition, it's only flyers breaking balance - but they do so hard. The best games I have yet played did not include any flyer and were awesome games with well-rounded lists.

So because I choose to use a lot of flyers do to my theme of my army from back before any the vendetta/valkyries even became flyers would net me gak tournament scores from you (I refuse to go buy a bunch of chimeras and my theme is sort of vietnamesque), that's a bit harsh. Even with 2-4 flyers in my lists (so far has been 2 vendettas, 1 valk and if opponent allows FW my vulture) its just part of the trends now, I was using them back when they were skimmers and now their flyers, all I can say is a just to the shift and hope for the best. My roomate has beaten me plenty of times without any flyers himself, just requires more tactical choices.

KingDeath wrote:

 zachwho wrote:

De have decent flyers, buy some. I mean honestly you didn't expect your 3rd de army to be viable forever did you?

Expensive Av 10 flyers aren't decent. Like the rest of the Dark Eldar codex they simply tend to be inferior to what other armies have.

I agree, but they are flyers, and that's the OPs complaint, and I'm sure that in the
hands of a deadly skilled general they would more than equal the playing field.

I'm sorry but as new editions come out shouldn't you try to adapt to it?

You play tournaments full of people that I'm sure are playing to win, so they use every advantage the new rule set will give them, but you don't Ike that they do that?

Why not just play casual games with no flyers?

So, Blue Falcon... are you just completely discounting/ignoring my post because you don't like it, or because I wasn't playing at a tournament, or..?

Is it just that I showed you up by forcing a two Storm Raven list to a technical draw with an even less optimal army than yours?

Ok, Dont let the door hit you on the way out.
We will have fun with our toys, while you have fun with yours.

 Blue Falcon wrote:
It's true that I was venting and a lot of you echo what one of my longtime 40k partners is saying...."Flyers are part of the game...accept it."

i just have a hard time accepting it.

.

well, this is how GW plays. they've not changed since third, when i started. so you cant accept it? well either change your mind, accept it, ignore it, or play other games. harsh, but true.

 Blue Falcon wrote:

Those of you that disagree with this statement though...

Some of you may disagree and think that I just need to learn 6th, but I tell you....there was a time where ALL armies were valid in this game. Where an inferior army...well run...could still come out on top of a vastly superior competetive force if run masterfully. This just isn't the case anymore....and that is my problem with 40k now.

....I feel that you're wrong if you disagree with this.

I know anecdotal evidence on a forum is hard for people to swallow, but I've got extensive tourney experience here in the states....I've got a good idea what has been competetive in past editions of the game. Myself I used to specialise in taking what was considered "sub-optimal".

Back two Dark Angel codex editions ago (not the current OR the last edition of the DA codex) I ran a tri-raider Deathwing only list all the time. This was back in the day of Dark Eldar Dark Lance spamming and rhino rushing.

This Deathwing list went to the chicago GW/GT several years ago where I "masterfully" ran it to get 4 or 5 wins out of the 5 or 6 game tournament. I went on to earn 2nd place best sportsmanship that year and did receive an award for it.

In that day, it was simply crazy to take that army. It was by no means competetive, but I ran it and ran it well....and always had a good chance to win...even fighting against Dark Lance spam and Iron Warrior lists with 4 Heavy support choices. (considered hella broken). Even lost games were still GAMES at least, where both players could have fun...where a 1 sided defeat was rare if you REALLY knew your list.

i remember heavy lists like this being OK, actually. its a very hard counter, but liable to be swamped by numbers. remember the old choppa rule? not that anyone played orks back then! to be fair though, winning one tournament doesnt change my position. heck, i've seen reports of tau winning "a" tournament in fifth, that doesnt change the fact that it was a severely underpowered codex. having a tournament to its credit doesnt make it a triple-A list.

 Blue Falcon wrote:
I

Yea....try taking a list like that today. You just simply cannot take whatever you want and not get totally boned. With Flyer spam, GW is forcing your hand to buy certain models...I really hate that.
.

you never could. "flyers" are to sixth what "skimmer spam" was to eldar and tau in fourth. its how you do things. plenty armies and army styles were completely powerless in older editions, dont try to play it off that even if played well they could compete. the sad fact of the matter is no, they could not.

 Blue Falcon wrote:
I
fair enough though, I just cannot understand how people actually think this is "better". I'll keep pounding away, although it seems clear that if I want to play competetively at all, I'll be needing to pick up two more dark eldar flyers, go back to my Grey Knights and buy 2 more Ravens, or get another Dark Angel army and spam Flakk missles.

why do they think its "better". maybe they like the idea of air support? different strokes, and all that.

needing to buy new stuff to stay on top of the game. hardly new!

 beigeknight wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:

As an aside, any review of a game using the word "fun" should be immediately discounted.

Respect your opinion and all, but is this going to boil down to a "what I think is fun is right and what you think is fun is wrong" kinda thing?

Not my point at all. I'm not saying my idea of fun is better or worse than anyone elses. I'm saying that because different people have fun in different ways, saying "6th ed is more fun than 5th ed" is a meaningless statement. It's completely subjective, and doesn't do anything to contribute to anyone's understanding of what's different.

Instead of saying "6th is fun", say "6th is random", or "6th has unexpected things happen". Saying that a codex is fun doesn't say anything. Saying that a codex is challenging to play in the current meta does. Saying that a codex relies heavily on luck does.

Make more sense now?

 Cortez667 wrote:
It really feels like you came on here tonight to complain.... which is actually valid. You've devoted a significant part of your life to GW, as have I. I too recall the joy when 3rd edition came out.

But GW is all about the money now. Its been that way for sometime. So I don't feel its valid when someone (Ferrum_Sanguinis) makes the comment that he/she did, and you take offense.

I gotta say, it just seems like your venting. As an aside, I built my DE near the end of 5th, and I was kicking everyones booty. I even placed at a fairly big tournament in L.A. In early 6th. But then flyers became THE NORM. And almost every game has been:

1) I'm clearly winning from turn 1. My army and the way I use it is superior.
2) Their flyers come on the board.
3) Suddenly I'm loosing.

Yes, the money we put into our armies is suddenly (seemingly) wasted. But be proud that the only way those other players can beat you is to take a clearly broken unit type. Give me comfort while I'm pulling off sail boats left and right.

One last point: The army that went UNDEAFETED at BAO 2013 did not contain a single flyer. And there were a metric TON of 2-3 dragon CSM lists there.

The game has changed, you just need to change with it.

To address your last point, I DO NOT have to change with it. GW can suck it, I've moved on the Infinity & WM/H. Both have far superior rules and game balance. I have permanently shelved all my GW armies and will probably end up selling them off as they will just be taking up space. The sooner GW goes out of business the better.

Both of those comments are also subjective, and don't say anything either. Your current meta maybe challenging to play in, but that's not the case for everyone, is it? Just like saying this codex is fun, it may not be for everyone.

Some people equate random to fun, why else would anyone gamble on a lottery or in a casino.

And all codexes rely heavily on luck, so that's a moot point.

When the Squats return riding giant space sharks the platinum age will have begun...

...so it has been prophesied.

I enjoy 6th ed

I think 6th is amazing !!! Yer it's not balanced at time so in comps at times it may feel like that. But as a friendly game with by far the coolest figs it's in a different class . It will take another year to get where it needs to be and yer a newb will get more wins then he would before but I love it and I think it beat 5th easy. And as for the over priced models yer they are very but then again they keep getting better . When I look at some of my old models from 10 years ago . I think I'd pay the extra to give GW the power to keep amazing us with cool new models.

Also, I like how people blame a Corporation for being Coperate

A tip with Dark eldar flyers, they arnt bad. They are amazing, with the void raven being one of the best air holders in the game. If they go first, then you can come on and shoot 2 Las Lances (lascannon...LANCES!) into there face. You will always pen on a 4+, and have a 1/3 chance of the flyer going boom for each pen. Its not hard to take down a gun emplacment before the flyer comes on, You play dark eldar, one of the best alpha strikers in the game. We can take out a 2 wound T7 marine in one turn. If you go first, you hace a special dark eldar trick. Deepstrike into his deployment zone, you count as zooming, and get rear armour shots at any tank. When his flyer comes on he CARNT hit you, because he has to come on 18 inches and can only turn 90 degree's. Meaning you can next turn go and shoot him in the bum once again with your lance cannons.

I think flyers add another dimension to the game, but they need working on. Spamming them, like spamming any other good unit, of course will brake the game. But they arn't un counterable, especially when we are one of the only xenos armies to have any chance of AA without going forge world. Our flyers are good, get the most out of them.

Also, So you complain about the game. but you still play? And you are Going to Nova? Where you will undoubtedly see more flyers?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
When his flyer comes on he CARNT hit you, because he has to come on 18 inches and can only turn 90 degree's. Meaning you can next turn go and shoot him in the bum once again with your lance cannons.

Neither Voidravens nor Razorwings have Deep Strike anymore...

It annoys when I see people complain about flyers, Elysian players such as my self need our flyers because we don't have any other vehicles save for the tauros venator

Who said flyers cant come one a shoot at the same time?

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sure he is venting, but he's making a very valid claim.

Everyone who frequently goes to tournaments will face flyers. Lots of them. They are expensive and were made overpowered at will in order to increase sales. I am utterly disgusted by any IG player spamming Vendettas or Necrons with mass Night Scythes. I have never given any of those guys given 0 fairness points and in the entire local meta, those guys tend to end up with 0.4 sportsmanship on average and they thus have barely won any tournament. A few guys don't even show up anymore and only go to GW tournaments (slight remark here: GW tournaments suck monkey balls) - which is better for the game overall.

This being said, those guys in need of dire compensation are the minority though, most of the time, I see strong, but fair lists with max 2-3 flyers (excluding Vendettas, again) and a very clear image of TAC,well-rounded lists.

6th is a great edition, it's only flyers breaking balance - but they do so hard. The best games I have yet played did not include any flyer and were awesome games with well-rounded lists.

so what about Elysian Drop Troop players like, where all we have are flyers?

Take this with a grain of salt, because I have never played a game of 6th edition- not even cracked the rulebook (I play older editions, so I can use all those codexes I bought that are now outmoded.)

Do the flyer rules in 6th ed share anything with the Flyer rules that accompanied the Vehicle Design Rules in 3rd/4th edition? I know rolling for shooting at them is very similar, but is there anything else? Because I remember when tons of players back then thought Flyers were thoroughly broken, and their rules actually sound far better in 6th edition.