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I actually like some of the randomness(even though it has hurt me in games) I like that assault is not a set distance anymore, many times it means a unit that would have failed the charge in 5th ed manages to succeed. I actually love the random terrain effects and objectives the change to power weapons makes the game very interesting.

Flyers can be nasty but so far in 6th I have found that if you just ignore them and plan your strategies with the knowledge that they are coming later they won't accomplish much. Flyers are very powerful now but they won't be forever give it time and they will balance out more.

I am running a list which is not well rounded but does what I wanted it to do, I didn't want flyers or bikers or tactical marines or any broken or exploited rules, I wanted a Deathwing army so that's all I have. The list contains terminators and land raider and that's it. I got laughed at when I went to a local tournament but I did well in every game I played because I thought ahead and knew my strategies for many different scenarios. I didn't win the tournament because one of the games was kill points and I was up against a very elite grey knights army so even coming close to tabling him only netted me a handful of points but I only gave up a single kill point the entire game(the opponent didn't get slay the warlord, First Blood, or Line Breaker).

 zachwho wrote:
What hobby can you make an investment 15 years ago in, and expect it to be a one time cost??

I mean i guess if you were serious about candy land, that would be a one time investment.....

Candy Land isn't a hobby. Now Scrabble on the other hand...

the new codexes will have plenty of good AA,

once people start making builds with them,

flyer spammers will have a reason not to spam flyers,

Im very happy with how new coedxes are coming out at a good rate this edition, and the faq's get updated more regularly as well.

Ive played since 3rd, and yes, flyer spam right now is rediculous, but only because half the armies are still in 4th edition codexes,

once we have tau, eldar ect with some good AA, peopel will tone down the flying circus stuff.

easysauce wrote:
the new codexes will have plenty of good AA,

C:CSM has...Flakk Havocs. CA has flakk Devastators and expensive Flakk upgrades on missile launchers. Caemons has skyfire on the Soulgrinder and I think that's it? Not much.

Well the first three haven't exactly been good examples of books with counters for Flyer spam.

Chaos: Vector Strikes and Flakk missiles
Dark Angels: Flakk missiles and what is widely considered the worst anti air flyer available.
Daemons: Vector Strikes and some Psychic shooting from FMCs and the Soulgrinders AA gun.

Nothing there would indicate an ability to encourage flyer spammers to rethink their approach.

More than likely they will let the air superiority reign for quite some time before making them laughably bad, invalidating the spam builds.

 Vaktathi wrote:

easysauce wrote:
the new codexes will have plenty of good AA,

C:CSM has...Flakk Havocs. CA has flakk Devastators and expensive Flakk upgrades on missile launchers. Caemons has skyfire on the Soulgrinder and I think that's it? Not much.

new codexes either have good AA or good air, or both

guess which one CSM has lol?

the drake is uber air support, and decent anti flyer

flakk missles are decent AA too,

storm talons are not a wast of space either, I would take some if I could.


my point being, that while I do think flyers are the most broken thing in the game right now,
its going to get better as codexes are updated,

even if there was only 1 or 2 armies with "the shiznit" anti air, that still encourages less flyer spam in the overall meta.

again, just my opinion,

flyers are still my least favorite thing about 40k right now,

Falcon, i don't think so although i have shelved my beloved Eldar. The rule set is more complete than ever. In my area we see an increased number of retired gamers replaying 40k.

I do fully understand that taking anti-air is something that's now a part of the game, like anti-tank heavy weapons. I'm alright with that, though I still hate the flyer spam that is in nearly every list.

But the main problem is with codexes where such Anti-Air is integrated in a dumb way, or just not at all, like Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Sisters of Battle, etc.. I don't want to have to take a friggin' Aegis Defense Line regardless of what type of army I'm playing, simply because that's the only thing I can take that's Anti-Air. It's stupid to have to do.

Why would my Saim-Hann jetbike army plunk down a defense line in the middle of their fast-moving strike force? The most appropriate thing I could see Eldar taking would be a Firestorm Grav-tank (or a Nightwing or two), but that brings in the whole FW versus GW debacle, not to mention i have to buy a set of really expensive FW rules for one unit, even if I were to convert the model from a Falcon and some Scatter-lasers, AND find people who are fine with FW (I;m just lucky the latter isn't an issue for me).

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I do fully understand that taking anti-air is something that's now a part of the game, like anti-tank heavy weapons. I'm alright with that, though I still hate the flyer spam that is in nearly every list.

But the main problem is with codexes where such Anti-Air is integrated in a dumb way, or just not at all, like Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Sisters of Battle, etc.. I don't want to have to take a friggin' Aegis Defense Line regardless of what type of army I'm playing, simply because that's the only thing I can take that's Anti-Air. It's stupid to have to do.

Why would my Saim-Hann jetbike army plunk down a defense line in the middle of their fast-moving strike force? The most appropriate thing I could see Eldar taking would be a Firestorm Grav-tank (or a Nightwing or two), but that brings in the whole FW versus GW debacle, not to mention i have to buy a set of really expensive FW rules for one unit, even if I were to convert the model from a Falcon and some Scatter-lasers, AND find people who are fine with FW (I;m just lucky the latter isn't an issue for me).

Saim-Hann can do AA. Just guide your jetseer council & lob your 5 or more spears like a bause. S9 attacks hitting on a rerolling 6+ means you'll probably drop a flier. Not to mention with the bikes you can get in range and get away easy enough. Come on we are CWE. Tricks to overcome the odds are what we're all about.

General Hobbs wrote:

You do realize if you cross the board, which as a DE player should be easy, and you space out properly, and you get within 18 inches of the other player's table edge, he has to either over fly your army or hover, allowing you to shoot as normal to the enemy.

It's like the old rhino rush.Tactics....use them.

You do realise there's no rule saying that fliers have to come on at a 90 degree angle to the table edge, right?

AegisGrimm wrote:I do fully understand that taking anti-air is something that's now a part of the game, like anti-tank heavy weapons. I'm alright with that, though I still hate the flyer spam that is in nearly every list.

But the main problem is with codexes where such Anti-Air is integrated in a dumb way, or just not at all, like Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Sisters of Battle, etc.. I don't want to have to take a friggin' Aegis Defense Line regardless of what type of army I'm playing, simply because that's the only thing I can take that's Anti-Air. It's stupid to have to do.

Why would my Saim-Hann jetbike army plunk down a defense line in the middle of their fast-moving strike force? The most appropriate thing I could see Eldar taking would be a Firestorm Grav-tank (or a Nightwing or two), but that brings in the whole FW versus GW debacle, not to mention i have to buy a set of really expensive FW rules for one unit, even if I were to convert the model from a Falcon and some Scatter-lasers, AND find people who are fine with FW (I;m just lucky the latter isn't an issue for me).

On the other hand, the FW books are well worth it (with the exception of IA:Apocalypse and its sequel) even if you never field a single model from them because they're damn beautiful books.

Besides, the FW vs GW debate is only clung to by long-time haters who refuse to get with the program. If FW wasn't completely 40k legal outside set tournament rules that are discarding half the game, FW models wouldn't be in every other picture in the 40k rulebook and supplements.

Saim-Hann can do AA. Just guide your jetseer council & lob your 5 or more spears like a bause. S9 attacks hitting on a rerolling 6+ means you'll probably drop a flier. Not to mention with the bikes you can get in range and get away easy enough. Come on we are CWE. Tricks to overcome the odds are what we're all about.

Yeah, but I see that more as a "mechanic that happens to work" rather than a fluffy vehicle or weapon type that fits the Craftworld Eldar theme. I personally think that adding Nightwings and Firestorms to the actual Eldar codex would be a better way of meshing Eldar with 6e flyers rules.

Heck, you could use a unit that already exists, and add quick rules so the the Nightspinner can be a unique weapon on a vehicle that the Eldar have started using as ad-hoc Anti-air. Imagine a flyer getting caught in a cloud of monofiliament wires.

I disagree with the OP - we are just entering a Golden Age of 40k

I like the idea of flyers, and if I bought 3 vendettas it would be because they look so cool, not to cheese people :/

If I cared about stats I wouldn't field 3 squads of Stormtroopers which now suck in 6th edition lol. I just think they look awesome! 9 inch rapid fire cmon!!

But I suppose us IG players have to buy Hydras since we have no other anti air! They now have skyfire and no jink saves from the FAQ. I don't know what this means yet but I assume it's good!

Yeah, but I see that more as a "mechanic that happens to work" rather than a fluffy vehicle or weapon type that fits the Craftworld Eldar theme. I personally think that adding Nightwings and Firestorms to the actual Eldar codex would be a better way of meshing Eldar with 6e flyers rules.

Heck, you could use a unit that already exists, and add quick rules so the the Nightspinner can be a unique weapon on a vehicle that the Eldar have started using as ad-hoc Anti-air. Imagine a flyer getting caught in a cloud of monofiliament wires.

Agreed! Hopefully we see some good additions in the upcoming codex release.

I have been playing since rogue trader late eighties , I disagree with OP, if you are a competitive tournament player it takes a while to transition from 5th to 6th and a lot of work to figure out what works and what doesn't .

I get the OP does not like flyers but a lot of gamers do and you can adapt to fight them even if you don't want to bring flyers yourself .

4 or 5 games is simply not enough to figure out how to make your list competitive in 6th ....complain less, buckle down and accept the challenge , you will be back to your old ways soon enough .

Also a MAJOR mistake is taking a 5th edition list and trying to shoehorn it into 6th...that does not work.

Fairly new player here... so not gonna talk about how it used to be, what was the best edition and so on...

I perfectly understand that flyers are quite an annoying addition for all those old-time players, who were used to play ground units, or anti-grav' at best.

If I'm right, in 5th edition, the Rhino and parking-lot style were kings, and spammed in almost any tourneys. All in all, flyers are only "6th edition's Rhinos"... you can spam them to try to get an easy-win. You can play without them if you want some challenge.

I can't remember where I read that 6th edition was here to last, that every codex should get a 6th-edition upgrade (I guess they said so for every previous game edition but...), but with such a change (addition of flyers), I guess the game is not gonna be balanced until every army gets its new codex, with flyers and AA-options. Then, everybody out there will be able either to go all-flying mode, or massive anti-air, or "I just don't care about flyers, I'm too fast on the ground" etc.

"Wait & See" for 6th edition is not yet one year old...

It's amazing that those that love a sci-fi game, taking place in the future, are upset at the idea that flyers are a huge part of a battle when flyers(planes) were a huge part of winning a war 50+ years ago, let alone NOW.

I thin it fits the sci-fi theme, it adds a good amount of variety and I like the new rules a lot.

 Atheos wrote:
It's amazing that those that love a sci-fi game, taking place in the future, are upset at the idea that flyers are a huge part of a battle when flyers(planes) were a huge part of winning a war 50+ years ago, let alone NOW.

I thin it fits the sci-fi theme, it adds a good amount of variety and I like the new rules a lot.

Just because something makes sense in reality (even in assumed reality, such as a sci-fi setting), doesn't mean it translates well into a good game. I do not disagree that it makes sense to have air support units in the game setting.

But, for years, the game has been a "heroic" wargame. The actions of the heros are supposed to matter, and the heroes carry power swords and get into hand-to-hand combat. For years now it has been possible to play an entirely hand-to-hand oriented army, and even have it make sense in the far future. Tyranids spawn more gaunts than you can shoot down. Orks mob you with numbers too. Daemons appear out of the warp, without having given you the opportunity to shoot them.

Flyers change that dynamic. It's no longer possible to play those armies (successfully) as they have no answer to flyers.

Flyers, (like artillery pieces) really don't belong in the scale being represented in 40k games, they're better left for apocalypse. If you think about it, your 28mm tall model means that a 4x6 table is roughly 100x150 yards in-game scale. (4 feet is 48 inches, and each inch represents two yards, so 4 feet is 96 yards). And over this 100x150 yard battlefield, you expect supersonic jet fighters to do more than wizz past?

It's no longer possible to play those armies (successfully) as they have no answer to flyers.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/03/wargaming-askew-seneca-falls-and-selma.html

You were saying?

Yes, I was. Does the army she was playing even exist anymore? Not even remotely in the same form. And, you'll note, she wasn't playing an all hand-to-hand army. She was using large units of shooty daemons.

I'm not talking about codexes, I'm taking about an entire style of play. You can't run a hand-to-hand army and do well against flyers.

 Redbeard wrote:

 Atheos wrote:
It's amazing that those that love a sci-fi game, taking place in the future, are upset at the idea that flyers are a huge part of a battle when flyers(planes) were a huge part of winning a war 50+ years ago, let alone NOW.

I thin it fits the sci-fi theme, it adds a good amount of variety and I like the new rules a lot.

Just because something makes sense in reality (even in assumed reality, such as a sci-fi setting), doesn't mean it translates well into a good game. I do not disagree that it makes sense to have air support units in the game setting.

But, for years, the game has been a "heroic" wargame. The actions of the heros are supposed to matter, and the heroes carry power swords and get into hand-to-hand combat. For years now it has been possible to play an entirely hand-to-hand oriented army, and even have it make sense in the far future. Tyranids spawn more gaunts than you can shoot down. Orks mob you with numbers too. Daemons appear out of the warp, without having given you the opportunity to shoot them.

Flyers change that dynamic. It's no longer possible to play those armies (successfully) as they have no answer to flyers.

Flyers, (like artillery pieces) really don't belong in the scale being represented in 40k games, they're better left for apocalypse. If you think about it, your 28mm tall model means that a 4x6 table is roughly 100x150 yards in-game scale. (4 feet is 48 inches, and each inch represents two yards, so 4 feet is 96 yards). And over this 100x150 yard battlefield, you expect supersonic jet fighters to do more than wizz past?

I always made the bold assumption that the plot of land you're fighting over, while you're right doesn't encompass the whole battle, is a focus on a very critical part of it. Thus instead of just wizzing past the flyers would be called there for support.. especially since that's where the big heroes are and they need to be protected. I've wanted flyers in 40k since I started playing, always thought it'd make sense.

I think the large issue is that with those hand 2 hand armies there just isn't a new codex out that gives them options to battle the flyers, it'll just take time to adjust again. The other thing is that 6th definitely seems to be much more of a shooty edition as opposed to one of the previous ones, 4th or 5th that was much better for hand 2 hand armies.

I'm pretty sure that FMCs can be both heavily CC oriented & deal with fliers, so as to keep in theme with a HTH oriented army. Bloodthirster anyone?

Hand to hand armies are still perfectly viable as far as flyers are concerned.

Flyers: Cannot score.

Flyers: Cannot shoot into close combat.

Flyers: Struggle to shoot at anything meaningful in consecutive turns.

 Vaktathi wrote:

easysauce wrote:
the new codexes will have plenty of good AA,

C:CSM has...Flakk Havocs. CA has flakk Devastators and expensive Flakk upgrades on missile launchers. Caemons has skyfire on the Soulgrinder and I think that's it? Not much.

CSMs also have Heldrakes and Flying MCs in the form of Daemon Princes; Dark Angels also have 2 flyers in addition to their flakk upgrades on missile launchers which really aren't that expensive; Chaos Daemons have skyfire Soulgrinders, plus they have flying MCs in the form of Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. So yes each new book has multiple AA options that can fit a defensive or offensive AA strategy. Plus they can also all add an ADL with quad cannon for good measure too. I dislike the ADL + QC as a default, but don't mind it when added to ther AA options as well.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
On the other hand, the FW books are well worth it (with the exception of IA:Apocalypse and its sequel) even if you never field a single model from them because they're damn beautiful books.

Have to agree here. The Apocalypse books and the Aeronautica books are just rulesbooks, but the campaign books are all incredible. Finally picked up the 3 Vraks Campaign books (IA: 5, 6 and 7) and giving them a read. Very interesting read along with cool alternative army lists as well. If the cost wasn't so insane I would consider doing a Krieg artillery list, just because the models look really cool, but a 1500 point army would run thousands, and the price just goes up from there for bigger forces. Kind of makes $1000 price tag for my chaos renegades army seem kind of small in comparison.

Skriker

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Hand to hand armies are still perfectly viable as far as flyers are concerned.

Flyers: Cannot score.

Flyers: Cannot shoot into close combat.

Flyers: Struggle to shoot at anything meaningful in consecutive turns.

(1) Many flyers can score in The Scouring. Some flyers can also score in Big Guns Never Tire.

(2) Flyers can transport scoring units. Necron flyers are particularly good at this.

(3) Flyers don't struggle with having meaningful targets if you know how to use them, or if they can hover.

This is not to say that melee armies are not viable, but that your counter-argument is poorly supported.

(2) On this point, the Vendetta does an excellent job transporting 10-man vet squad across the table. I found that out last Saturday. Ugh...

 kronk wrote:
(2) On this point, the Vendetta does an excellent job transporting 10-man vet squad across the table. I found that out last Saturday. Ugh...

Yeah, I've been putting naked Infantry squads into Vendettas with great success. Grav Chute insertion is one of the most underrated rules in the game.

 Atheos wrote:

I think the large issue is that with those hand 2 hand armies there just isn't a new codex out that gives them options to battle the flyers, it'll just take time to adjust again.

There is no adjusting, the nature of the game has fundamentally changed. Prior to this edition, every type of model in the game could hurt every other type of model in the game. Sure, not every model could hurt every other model, you had your autocannon vs AV14 or S3 vs T8 issues, but if you put a shooty unit on the table, you knew you could shoot at your opponent, and if you put a choppy unit on the table, you knew you could chop your opponent.

That's not true anymore. There's a class of models (flyers) that simply cannot be affected by another entire class of models (assault units). And any model you mention that -can- isn't part of that class. A bloodthirster is more than an assault unit, even if assault is what it does best.

The only way to adjust to this is to move away from these choppy units.

The other thing is that 6th definitely seems to be much more of a shooty edition as opposed to one of the previous ones, 4th or 5th that was much better for hand 2 hand armies.

Exactly, because you can't rely on being choppy, it's an inferior approach. But, to a lot of players, lining up toy soldiers and then rolling dice to see which fall down is no better than lining up toy soldiers and firing rubber-bands at them to see which fall down. It's just not as enjoyable. That's not to say every shooty army is a gunline, but I'm seeing more gunlines in 6th than I did in prior editions. And I don't have a lot of fun playing with, or against, gunlines.

 Redbeard wrote:

 Atheos wrote:

I think the large issue is that with those hand 2 hand armies there just isn't a new codex out that gives them options to battle the flyers, it'll just take time to adjust again.

There is no adjusting, the nature of the game has fundamentally changed. Prior to this edition, every type of model in the game could hurt every other type of model in the game. Sure, not every model could hurt every other model, you had your autocannon vs AV14 or S3 vs T8 issues, but if you put a shooty unit on the table, you knew you could shoot at your opponent, and if you put a choppy unit on the table, you knew you could chop your opponent.

That's not true anymore. There's a class of models (flyers) that simply cannot be affected by another entire class of models (assault units). And any model you mention that -can- isn't part of that class. A bloodthirster is more than an assault unit, even if assault is what it does best.

The only way to adjust to this is to move away from these choppy units.

The other thing is that 6th definitely seems to be much more of a shooty edition as opposed to one of the previous ones, 4th or 5th that was much better for hand 2 hand armies.

Exactly, because you can't rely on being choppy, it's an inferior approach. But, to a lot of players, lining up toy soldiers and then rolling dice to see which fall down is no better than lining up toy soldiers and firing rubber-bands at them to see which fall down. It's just not as enjoyable. That's not to say every shooty army is a gunline, but I'm seeing more gunlines in 6th than I did in prior editions. And I don't have a lot of fun playing with, or against, gunlines.

Exactly.

And I don't care what some theoretical-future tacticians say, there is no reason that in the confines of this "game" that you shouldn't be able to - especially with an alien race composed of mutating space bugs whose limbs can carve through terminator armor - have an assault based army be a viable option. They not only force Nid players to buy their newest models (Tyrannofex/Tervigon) to stay competitive, which I could forgive as when you have a large collection of any army adding new units is nice, but the arms race should continue in that it should add more tactical options, not limit them, but they invalidated an entire strategy of warfare and made their most expensive strategy the strongest that is not just an arms race continuing, that is a game mechanic coming second to a marketing strategy. That is the problem with what is happening.

By adjust I was saying, pretty literally, you'll have to wait for the new codex to come out.

You complain that you can't have an assault based army then complain that an assault unit, like the BT isn't an assault unit and doesn't count *facepalm*.

I don't see how an entire strategy of warfare has been broken, I just see a bunch of cry babies whining that it doesn't work as well as it did before or haven't adjusted to the new rule set to make it as effective.