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2013/03/19 06:09:59
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons (Completed)
This is a test game between my 2 armies. We all know that my tyranids have been doing well. Also, they match up well against the old daemons as my bugs have beaten their most competitive build - Tzeentch screamers/flamers - not once, but twice. However, out with the old and in with the new. Now it will be the new daemons that they will be facing - my Bump-N-Grind dual-thirsters dual-grinders daemon army. Exactly how competitive are the new daemons? Can they overcome a very competitive tyranid army? We shall find out....
I decided to try something a little different with my daemons. I decided to forgo my Elites in favor of a semi-FMC daemon build. I also wanted to try out the new Furies.
Bloodthirster - Greater Gift, Exalted Gift - +1W & It Will Not Die!, Portyglyph (Warlord)
Bloodthirster - Greater Gift, Exalted Gift - Armourbane/Fleshbane, Grimoire
Daemon Prince - 3+, Mark of Khorne, Flight, 2x Greater Gifts, 1x Lesser Gift - 4+ FNP, +1W & It Will Not Die!, Axe of Khorne
Soulgrinder - Tzeentch, Phlegm
Soulgrinder - Tzeentch, Phlegm
Note - I changed up my list because the previous list was illegal.
Mission:Bay Area Open Scenario #3 - The Relic (4pts) & Big Guns Never Tire (3pts)
The way the BAO scenarios work is this. There are always 2 book missions, one worth 4 points and the other worth 3 points. There are also the 3 bonus points - First Blood, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker - for a possible total of 10 points. Whoever gets the most points wins. In scenario #3, Big Guns Never Tire is worth 3-points and The Relic worth 4-points.
Pre-game Analysis will be up tomorrow. The actual battle report itself with be up on Wednesday (haven't actually played the game yet, just rolled for "stuff").
As usual, I'd like to hear what you guys think of the matchups. Do daemons have any chance at all for a victory?
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2013/03/22 15:57:24
Don't you have to have the same allegiance on your DP as your GD to make it a heavy?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think your Tyranids will take this as they seem better suited to the missions. They are also optimized from your many battles with them where as you're just in the testing phase with the Daemons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/19 06:25:20
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2013/03/19 06:26:18
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons
Eldarain wrote: Don't you have to have the same allegiance on your DP as your GD to make it a heavy?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think your Tyranids will take this as they seem better suited to the missions. They are also optimized from your many battles with them where as you're just in the testing phase with the Daemons.
Good Catch, I didn't see it when I first glanced it over, but yes they do have to have to be in the same alignment.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/19 06:27:36
2013/03/19 07:37:57
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons
Unfortunately, I'd say the Daemons don't have a chance. Not enough shooting to remove screens. If the Bloodthirsters or Daemon Prince can make it to your Tervigons, they should wreck them...but I can't see them getting through all the gants, even if you run out on turn 1. Also, 6+ troops vs 3. Biovores should just demolish Bloodletters and Daemonettes. No psychic defense for the Daemons.
I'm a bit surprised with all the Tzeentch stuff everywhere. Soul Grinders seem better with Nurgle (Shrouded) or Khorne (cheapest option). Furies seem better with Slaanesh (rending, fleet) or un-upgraded to save points. Thoughts?
Anyway, giving this one to the Nids unless Daemons get really lucky with a Warp Storm roll - the result that turns a psyker into a Herald...nasty.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/19 07:55:39
2013/03/19 08:05:02
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons
So Furies, looking at them now, they are akin to the normal gargoyles right?, but the leadership 2 seems like it will hurt a lot in CC, good screening unit for 110pts but I would rather take slaanesh as above, sad they only have 1 attack each as well.
Surely having a herald join them would be a better bet?, on a steed jugger or something, cheap LOS wounds and can benefit from the heralds higher leadership (khorne would be nice, can give them rage locus quite a beast in CC because of challaenges etc)?
Just as stand alone unit I cant really see the benefit?
40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/ 06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final
2013/03/19 09:04:14
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons
Nids will just wreck them, flyrants will murder troops, even your Thirster when they focus. Doom against lds 7 troops will be a slaughter, that followed up by psychic shriek, ouch.
Biovores will just bombard them back to hell.
I dont see any chance at all for the deamons. And we don't even speak about the impact mulitple enfeebles will make, or Iron Arm...
Gameplan: Kill the Thirster with the Grimoire asap, then bombard his troops, screen with termagents and gargoyles, if they ground a thirster, lock him in hth with cheap troops...
About the list:
I think you should have
1 thirster but i prefer LOC much more or even Fateweaver and heralds, 1 Nurgle herald with codex in a unit plaguebearers, 1 herald in a unit of Horrors maybe 2 to just go bannanas with shooting...
horrors, deamonettes and 1 unit of plaguebearers for objective camping
fast units either screamers, Fiends, Beasts,
Soulgrinders maybe if you use them for assaults not sold on the tzeentch mark... Nurgle and the big templates are the way to go...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/19 15:05:51
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/03/19 14:59:50
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons
Guys, I will be re-adjusting my daemon army. I still plan on the core of the list to be the Bump (thirsters) and the Grind (soulgrinders). However, the DP definitely will change (either Khorne or CSMDP with the Black Mace).
Unfortunately, I'd say the Daemons don't have a chance. Not enough shooting to remove screens. If the Bloodthirsters or Daemon Prince can make it to your Tervigons, they should wreck them...but I can't see them getting through all the gants, even if you run out on turn 1. Also, 6+ troops vs 3. Biovores should just demolish Bloodletters and Daemonettes. No psychic defense for the Daemons.
I'm a bit surprised with all the Tzeentch stuff everywhere. Soul Grinders seem better with Nurgle (Shrouded) or Khorne (cheapest option). Furies seem better with Slaanesh (rending, fleet) or un-upgraded to save points. Thoughts?
Anyway, giving this one to the Nids unless Daemons get really lucky with a Warp Storm roll - the result that turns a psyker into a Herald...nasty.
Nurgle grinders is not my thing. I want you to shoot at my grinders instead of my other guys. Nurgle will only discourage you from doing so. You make a bullet magnet too hard to kill and people will just ignore it.
I may change my furies to Slaanesh if I have the points.
Yeah, they're going to have problems getting through the screening units. I don't think it will be an easy battle for daemons. I think they will be the underdogs in this matchup.
MarkyMark wrote: So Furies, looking at them now, they are akin to the normal gargoyles right?, but the leadership 2 seems like it will hurt a lot in CC, good screening unit for 110pts but I would rather take slaanesh as above, sad they only have 1 attack each as well.
Surely having a herald join them would be a better bet?, on a steed jugger or something, cheap LOS wounds and can benefit from the heralds higher leadership (khorne would be nice, can give them rage locus quite a beast in CC because of challaenges etc)?
Just as stand alone unit I cant really see the benefit?
Yeah, cc and daemonic instability will prove a problem. However, I don't really care if they survive, only that they can hold 1 or 2 units in combat for a couple of turns.
No need to give them a herald. If they die, then they die. No biggie. They are a throw-away unit anyways.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Valek wrote: Nids will just wreck them, flyrants will murder troops, even your Thirster when they focus. Doom against lds 7 troops will be a slaughter, that followed up by psychic shriek, ouch.
Biovores will just bombard them back to hell.
I dont see any chance at all for the deamons. And we don't even speak about the impact mulitple enfeebles will make, or Iron Arm...
Gameplan: Kill the Thirster with the Grimoire asap, then bombard his troops, screen with termagents and gargoyles, if they ground a thirster, lock him in hth with cheap troops...
About the list:
I think you should have
1 thirster but i prefer LOC much more or even Fateweaver and heralds, 1 Nurgle herald with codex in a unit plaguebearers, 1 herald in a unit of Horrors maybe 2 to just go bannanas with shooting...
horrors, deamonettes and 1 unit of plaguebearers for objective camping
fast units either screamers, Fiends, Beasts,
Soulgrinders maybe if you use them for assaults not sold on the tzeentch mark... Nurgle and the big templates are the way to go...
So in all:
Bloodthirster with gifts
Herald of Nurgle with codex, fnp Herald of tzeentch +1str loci, lvl2 (primaris pres & Tz)
Herald of tzeentch +1str loci, lvl2 (primaris pres & Tz)
Horrors enough to make them lvl2
Horrors enough to make them lvl2
10 Plaguebearers
max Deamonettes cheap no chars, so they cannot be stopped by challenges, you want as much attacks as possible for rends
9 Screamers good mobility and you answer to terminators (with presience from the heralds, they can still be devastating), slash and multiple attacks still makes them good against large numbers with bad saves.
9 Screamers
Soulgrinder nurgle phlem
Soulgrinder nurgle phlem
Don't forget that part of the mission is Big Guns so that the grinders will be scoring as well. Then on top of that, daemons will be using the Portaglyph which can spawn more daemons. Scoring may not be their strong suit. However, it isn't as bad as one would think.
I will try out Heralds soon enough, but for this game, I want to continue experimenting with my dual-thirster build. I really like the Tzeentch Heralds, though I don't feel that the Nurgle Herald is necessary.
Screamers got nerfed. They are still good for the cost, though I would not run more than 1 unit of them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/19 15:10:21
jy2, I just want to chime in here in your latest thread and thank you for your collection of great Tyranid battle reports, excellent reading during my spare time for the last week. Nice to see that people are discovering just how good Nids can be in 6th ed.
I grabbed a 5th place back in october in a tournament with my 2k army, seems it's pretty much a template these days -
My greatest foe is - time constraints. Usually when I lose (or only win by a small margin) it's because we don't have enough time. And DE Venomspam, of course. Thankfully they are rare these days.
I've noticed you grab area terrain cover saves for your Swooping MC's - has anyone challenged you on that? In my latest tournament an opponent thought it was ludicrous that a FMC could get cover saves from terrain that it is high above (fluff wise). We called a judge over and it was ruled against me.
Sorry for the thread derail.
2013/03/20 06:12:27
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons
Ok, I changed up my daemon list for the game to make it legal. I also followed the suggestion to make the Furies Slaanesh.
Bloodthirster - Greater Gift, Exalted Gift - +1W & It Will Not Die!, Portyglyph (Warlord)
Bloodthirster - Greater Gift, Exalted Gift - Armourbane/Fleshbane, Grimoire
Daemon Prince - 3+, Mark of Khorne, Flight, 2 Greater Gifts, 1x Lesser Gift - 4+ FNP, +1W & It Will Not Die!, Axe of Khorne
Soulgrinder - Tzeentch, Phlegm
Soulgrinder - Tzeentch, Phlegm
N.I.B. wrote: jy2, I just want to chime in here in your latest thread and thank you for your collection of great Tyranid battle reports, excellent reading during my spare time for the last week. Nice to see that people are discovering just how good Nids can be in 6th ed.
I grabbed a 5th place back in october in a tournament with my 2k army, seems it's pretty much a template these days -
My greatest foe is - time constraints. Usually when I lose (or only win by a small margin) it's because we don't have enough time. And DE Venomspam, of course. Thankfully they are rare these days.
I've noticed you grab area terrain cover saves for your Swooping MC's - has anyone challenged you on that? In my latest tournament an opponent thought it was ludicrous that a FMC could get cover saves from terrain that it is high above (fluff wise). We called a judge over and it was ruled against me.
Sorry for the thread derail.
That is a good army. Though I would recommend swapping out 1 unit of hive guards for the Doom. You just don't see as much mech anymore as you used to. Back in 5th, I used to run 8-9 hive guards at 2K. Ever since 6th, I've gone down to 6 and now to only 3 hive guards.
Yeah, I'm finding time to be a factor as well for tyranids. We use up all 3 phases to their fullest - Movement, Shooting and Assault. In addition, we've got spawning, psychic powers and positioning (i.e. screening, checking synapse, making sure tervigons are within range of gants, etc.) that we have to consider and all these take time.
Nah, cover from area terrain has never been an issue for me. That is because I know that it is a change from 5th edition so before every game, I usually tell me my opponent about it so that there will be no surprises in the game. Then again, here we tend to play more RAW than fluff.
Daemons: I'm really not sure how to deal with the 2 flyrants. I suppose daemons can try to ground them, though with their limited shooting - the bloodthirsters and the soulgrinders only - I can't really rely on that strategy too much. I think the best thing to do is to just put pressure on the bugs. Advance the 3 flying monstrous creatures (FMC's) aggressively to be followed by the daemon horde. Go after the tervigons...if I can somehow get past those screening units.
Though the daemons have got only 3 scoring units, the mission isn't as bad against them as one would think. That is because the soulgrinders are scoring in Big Guns and can guard the objectives. I can then use the fast daemons to try to deny the bugs from getting to the Relic. And then the daemons have got the Portaglyph which can create more daemon troops. However, this battle may just come down to First Blood. In that regards, tyranids may have the advantage with First Turn and also the better shooting in 2 unstoppable flyrants.
Tyranids: Not going to lie....those 2 thirsters will be a nightmare to handle. Tyranids won't be able to deal with the thirsters one-on-one. Rather, they need to swamp those thirsters (and FMC's) with tarpitting gribblies. Try to ground them and then hit them with swarms of gants. If the bugs can somehow immobilize the tyranid FMC's (by locking them in assault), then I think this will be an easy game for the nids. If not, then it may just be anyone's game.
Bugs do have 2 distinct advantages (well, actually 3 advantages). First is bodies that the tervigons can create. The daemon MC's are good at killing infantry, but they can be tied up by hordes. If each tervigon can spawn at least 2 batches of gants, then it will probably be an uphill battle for daemons. I just don't think that they can deal with that many gants. Secondly is the superior firepower of the bugs. Flyrant shooting should be devastating to both daemon infantry and monstrous creatures. Moreover, the flyrants should have almost free reign to perform "surgical" strikes against the daemons. Focus-fire can potentially wipe out a MC and there just isn't much daemons can do about it. Lastly, the bugs have the Doom of Ma'lantai. With the reduced Leadership of the new daemons, the Doom may just have a field day with its Spirit Leech. I wouldn't be surprised if the Doom is a game-changer in this game. He has the potential to do so.
Overall, I think daemons will be an underdog in this battle. My daemon army just isn't as balanced as my bugs, without any good way to deal with enemy FMC's and any psychic defense. They have a chance, as long as they don't get grounded and tied up by the tyranid gribblies.
Flyrant #1 (Warlord, Non-Forgeworld model): Iron Arm, Life Leech
Flyrant #2: Iron Arm, Life Leech
Doom: Psychic Shriek
Zoanthropes: I keep their codex powers (for the very first time!).
Tervigons #1: Iron Arm, Endurance, Warp Speed
Tervigons #2: Enfeeble, Life Leech, Warp Speed
Warlord Traits:
Tyranids: Counter-attack in its own deployment zone.
Daemons: All friendly units within 12" may re-roll Daemonic Instability tests.
Daemon Gifts:
Bloodthirster #1 (Warlord, the big guy): +1W, It Will Not Die!, Portaglyph
Bloodthirster #2: Armourbane/Fleshbane, Grimoire
Daemon Prince: Axe of Khorne, FNP 4+, +1W, It Will Not Die!
Tyranids cast their psychic powers. Both flyrants become T8.
Tervigon spawns 7 gants and then runs out.
The bugs advance.
Both flyrants swoop to the right (Warlord to the right). I want to make sure I am not in the bloodthirster's assault range should my flyrants get grounded. So my strategy now is to attack the right flank.
I make a mistake here. The maximum range of my flyrant shooting only extends out to about 7-8 bloodletters (and even less daemonettes). Therefore, I will not be able to wipe them out for First Blood.
And that is exactly what happens. Flyrants wipe out 8 bloodletters but cannot allocate wounds to any more. Biovores would kill 4 daemonettes....
....and 2 chaos furies.
Finally, the hive guards take off 1 Hull Point from a soulgrinder.
Daemons 1
Spoiler:
The thirster uses the Grimoire on his Warlord....and reduces his Invuln to 6++!
K-dog (Khorne DP) goes after the tyranid left flank. There are just too many gribblies protecting the tervigons for him to go directly after them.
Furies go directly after the gants.
Both thirsters swoop 24" after the flyrants. They both shoot at and hit the 2 flyrants but fail to wound due to both of the flyrants being T8. Both flyrants then pass their Grounding tests.
Sorry for the slightly dark photos, but one of the lights is out.
The Warlord drops his Portaglyph (represented by Mr Turtle), which scatters but stops as there is a unit in its way.
5 pink horrors get out. I manage to keep them just over 12" away from the tervigon (and Shadows in the Warp).
At the beginning of the Shooting Phase, I roll for the Warpstorm and get Khorne's Wrath. It doesn't affect the daemons but affects 2 tyranid units (1 tervigon and 1 unit of gribblies). Fortunately for the bugs, both S8 AP3 blasts scatter off and hit nothing.
Both grinders fire at the gants surrounded by the gargoyles. However, both phlegm scatter way off. They only end up killing 2 gants and 1 gargoyle. Pink horrors then fire Flickering Flame, which kill 3 gargoyles and then another 2 more to the afterburn.
Finally the furies assault the gants. Counter-attack goes off for the gants.
Furies wipe out the gants, losing 3 furies in the process, and then consolidate 6" to prevent the bugs from getting into the arena. Daemons get First Blood .
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2. Both flyrants become T8 again. Tervigon Enfeebles the Warlord thirster (the Thirstlord).
I take a big risk here. I land both flyrants in preparation for an assault. I am taking the risk that I will ground his Warlord thirster.
Right tervigon spawns 9 gants, who will go after the furies. The bugs then advance.
Over here, both the gargoyles and gants go after K-dog (Khorne DP).
I fire everything at the Warlord. I even divert the termagants who were going after the furies and the zoanthropes to shoot at the daemon Warlord. Every unit hits but the Thirstlord passes all 4 of his grounding checks. My flyrants, however, do manage to take 5W off of it.
Biovores scatter wildly and manage only to kill 3 daemonettes.
Crap! I've got 2 flyrants on the ground and daemons still have both of their bloodthirsters.
The hive guards take out the Portaglyph.
Finally, the gargoyles and gants manage to ground the DP. They fail to wound him and he makes his FNP against the grounding, but at least now I can tie up with DP with my gargoyles.
In assault, tervigon assaults the furies.
Gargoyles swarm the DP.
Tervigon only manages to kill 1 fury. Daemons then lose another 1 fury to Daemonic Instability (thanks to the Thirstlord's re-roll bubble which changed the DI roll from a 9 to a 3).
Gargoyles do manage to wound the DP once. In return, the DP kills 2 of the gargoyles.
Daemons 2
Spoiler:
I deepstrike the plaguebearers on top of the Relic. However, they scatter outside the arena and barely avoid a mishap.
Bloodthirsters go after the 2 grounded flyrants. This is a huge risk for daemons as well. Their Warlord is down to just 1W remaining and he will be going against an Iron Armed T8 flyrant at full health. He may not even survive the Overwatch! Anyways, I feel that in order for daemons to have any chance of winning, they need to strike down the flyrants while they have a chance....and their chance is now while the flyrants are on the ground.
Daemonettes advance. They have a choice of assaulting a flyrant or the termagants and tervigon.
BTW, my thirster uses the Grimoire on his Warlord....and again he reduces the Thirstlord's invuln to 6++!!!
The rest of the army advances. Pink horrors go for the Relic. Bloodletters is the only unit that retreats to the safety of the impassable LOS-blocking terrain (thus, claiming a Big Gun objective).
I then roll for the Warpstorm and gets Nurgle's Curse (or whatever the name is). Fortunately for daemons, none of their units gets affected.
Tyranids lose 1 biovore to the rot. They also lose a couple of gants from one of the termagant units.
Both grinders fire at the tervigon, inflicting 2W on it as well as killing 7 gants - 5 from the front squad and 2 from the rear squad.
More importantly, they've just created an opening for the daemonettes to charge the tervigon (which was my plan originally).
Now for the main event. Both thirsters charge. The Warlord flyrant deals 2W of Overwatch damage to the healthy bloodthirster. Amazingly, the other flyrant fails to kill off the Enfeebled T5 Thirstlord with only 1W left with its Overwatch!
Daemonettes multi-charge both the tervigon and termagants.
K-dog kills off 3 gargoyles. They are still within synapse range.
Tervigon and furies whiff against each other.
In an astonishing turn of events, both thirsters finish off both T8 flyrants!!!
It was easy enough with the non-Warlord thirster to do due to Fleshbane.
However, for the Thirstlord, I did the improbable. First of all, at only T5 and with a 6++ invuln, I survive its Overwatch. Secondly, I forget about Furious Charge on the thirster. Thus, thinking I need 6's to wound T8, I decide to Smash against a 4W flyrant. With only 4 attacks, the thirster hits and wounds all 4 times!
In the other battle, daemonettes fail to hurt the tervigon. They do, however, wipe out the gants. Tervigon manages to kill 1 daemonette only.
Holy crap! What started off as a risky strategy ended up paying off BIG time for the daemons! The momentum of the battle has just shifted....
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
Tyranids may be down, but they are not out. You are going to find that my bugs aren't just a 1-dimensional army that relies solely on the flyrants. No, the game isn't over by a long shot.
Here comes the Great Equalizer....the Doom!
The right tervigon spawns 9 gants. He is still ticking.
Gants go after the plaguebearers.
My other unit of gants go to help out the tervigon in assault. Hive guards then surround it to protect it from the angry thirsters.
Zoanthropes prepare to sacrifice themselves by throwing their bodies into assault with "a" thirster.
Now that both thirsters are on the ground, tyranid strategy is to tie them up and lock them down.
Both thirsters pass their LD against the Doom's Spirit Leech!
However, the hive guards shoot down the Thirstlord with only 1W remaining.
The Doom then uses Psychic Shriek on the other thirster to drain it out of another 2W.
Biovores fire at the plaguebearers. However, both units scatter and instead kill 3 horrors, 3 furies and 1 gant. I'll take that!
Gants then shoot down 1 plaguebearer.
The other gants wipe out the horrors. They are also claiming the Relic.
Then it's off to assault we go.
K-dog kills another 2 gargoyles. The gargoyles are really doing a great job tying down the DP.
Gants kill 5 plaguebearers, who then lose another 3 to Daemonic Instability (DI). Plagues kill 3 gants.
This turn, the tervigon casts Warp Speed, getting another 2 attacks. The tervigon wins 2 to 1. With only a LD of 2, you would think that I should wipe out the furies via DI. They then proceed to roll snake-eyes on their DI test.
Tervigon challenges the Alluress, who refuses. Daemonettes lose 3, but they also kill 3 gants and put 1 or 2W on the tervigon, thus winning this round of combat.
Finally, the tervigon smashes 1 zoanthrope to a pulp. This is exactly what the bugs want. Lose 1 zoan this turn and hopefully, the thirster will finish off the other zoan on his Assault phase. Then on the tyranids next turn, they can try again to shoot down the thirster or to tie him up with more gribblies.
Daemons 3
Spoiler:
The grinder goes to deal with the Doom. Bloodletters go after the mycetic spore. Finally, they will see some action. Even the lowly plaguebearers are getting some!
I forget to roll on the Warpstorm table this turn.
The grinder fires at the gants with the Relic but the shot scatters way off and hit the other grinder instead! The other grinder just shrugs it off (failed to glance/penetrate). The grinder then fails its charge against the gants.
Bloodletters attempt to assault. Overwatch from the spore kills 2 letters and then they fail their charge! Doh!!!
K-dog wipes out the gargoyles and the gants finish off the lone plaguebearer.
The other grinder assaults the Doom....and then flubs all his attacks! Doh (Part Deus)!!!
The thirster finishes off the zoan. Tervigon and gants actually beat down the daemonettes 3-2. Fortunately for the daemonettes, they pass their DI test.
At least now the daemons have 2 freed flying monstrous creatures, though I don't expect my thirster to be free for very long.
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 4.
Gants go to screen out the tervigon.
Tervigon spawns another 13 gants without running out!!!
Both units of gants go after the bloodthirster. The gants drop off the Relic near the tervigon to be picked up at a later date.
I don't believe the thirster will survive all my gants.
Biovores move onto the objectives. The right, solitary biovore will be out of Synapse range.
Mycetic spore shoots down another bloodletter.
Hive guards take off 1 HP from the far soulgrinder.
I decide to assault the smaller unit of gants into the daemonettes instead.
The larger gant squad (who fails to shoot down the thirster) assault the thirster.
Wow! 9 misses in a row for my grinder!
The tervigon finally finishes off the furies. He only actually kills 1 and DI finishes off the rest.
1 daemonette survives the onslaught of gants. 1 unit of 1 gant survives and consolidates. However, the solitary daemonette is preventing the tervigon from going to pick up the Relic next turn.
Thirster kills 3 gants and survives their vicious onslaught!!!
Daemons 4
Spoiler:
K-dog vector strikes and kills 2 gants. My soulgrinder then goes after them.
For the Warpstorm, I roll a '7'. Nothing happens.
The grinder fires at the tervigon. His phlegm lands directly (the only time it's done so all game), deals another 1W to the tervigon and wipes out the rest of the gants.
This is the best possible scenario for my grinder. I wanted to assault the tervigon and at the same time, am able to clear out the screening gants.
Bloodletters decide that it is wiser for them to try to survive. They move towards the other objective behind the LOS-blocking terrain.
Sorry, no action for the letters once again.
Soulgrinder assaults the tervigon.
I actually have a better chance of hurting the tervigon than vice versa. In order for the tervigon to do any real damage, it's going to have to smash. That is only 2 attacks against a walker with a 5++ invuln who can re-roll 1's on its saves. The grinder, on the other hand, has 5 S10 attacks on the charge against a non-Iron Armed tervigon (failed its psychic test last turn).
However, both guys whiff their attacks. And here I thought grinders were supposed to be good in assault. That's a total of 14 straight misses by my grinders.
The other grinder finally redeems himself by stomping on the Doom.
Here I make a mistake. I forget that the Alluress is already gone. I then challenge the tervigon with a "non-character" daemonette. Lol. She survives.
Despite needing 5's to hit with only 6 attacks (thirster kills 4 gants before they can even strike), the gants finally manage to do what they should have done last turn. They topple the thirster and consolidate towards the grinder.
Tyranids 5
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 5.
Gants go after the soulgrinder. I am going to stop him from reaching the objective (and killing the mycetic spore).
Tervigon spawns 18 gants and finally run out.
I then fire everything at the DP in order to try to ground him. That is 1 unit of 18 gants, 1 unit of 1 gant and the hive guards....and still he remains in the air!
Gants then charge the grinder. The grinder kills 1 with Overwatch and then rolls poorly in combat to kill another 1 gant only. Sigh....
Tervigon finally finishes off the daemonette in combat. The gants consolidate to try to screen him out from the DP.
Finally, the grinder hits and deals 3W to a T9 tervigon. The tervigon then smashes and manages to blow up the grinder with 1 lucky hit!
Daemons 5
Spoiler:
Time to assess the situation. I don't think the DP will be able to stop the bugs from picking up the Relic because he is screened out from the tervigon. I'm going to have to concede the Relic.
However, I think that daemons can still take Big Guns.
Because the DP is scoring in Big Guns, I just need to wipe out those biovores and then daemons will take the Secondary, Big Guns.
Daemons can then win it with all 3 bonus points - First Blood, Warlord and Linebreaker - compared to just Warlord for tyranids.
Of course, that is assuming the game ends on 5. If the game continues, then daemons will most likely lose.
So I go after the biovores.
And assault them....
....and wipe them out!
Grinder kills another 2 gants but cannot get out of combat.
At the point, there is no way for daemons to win so I end it.
Bloodletters get 1 objective here.
Biovores get 1 objective there. The other objective is contested. Each army also gets 1 Heavy Support (soulgrinder, biovores) so Big Guns is a draw. Had the game continued, however, tyranids would most likely kill the DP to claim Big Guns as well.
Tyranids have got the Relic.
Daemons have got First Blood and Warlord. They currently have Linebreaker as well don't I don't think they would have been able to hold on to it. Tyranids have got Warlord and wins it 8-2.
While I suspected that tyranids would give daemons a difficult fight, there were several things that I didn't expect in this battle:
- I didn't expect the flyrants to both die like that to the bloodthirsters, especially not T8 Iron Armed flyrants.
- I didn't expect the Warlord thirster (thirstlord) to survive all that shooting and still stay in the air.
- The Doom didn't do very much besides draining 2W from the non-Warlord thirster. I thought he would have played a bigger role....but I guess you could call tying up the soulgrinder for 3 rounds of combat and preventing it from making it to the daemon objective a contribution.
- The last tervigon to spawn so many gants. This was instrumental in the tyranid victory.
- The tervigon actually beating the soulgrinder in combat.
Other than those, the game happened pretty much as I expected - swamp the scary daemons with gants and as long as the tervigon can keep producing, tyranids will have the advantage. This game really emphasizes one of the weaknesses of this daemon build - its lack of shooting. Without shooting, the big nasty daemons just couldn't take down the flyrants or get pass the bubble-wrap gants (and even hive guards). They couldn't get at the core of the tyranid army - the tervigons. And had I not landed my flyrants in anticipation of an assault, they wouldn't have been able to do anything to the flyrants as well. That is just one of the inherent weaknesses of a fast daemonic MTO build. If you want to play this style of daemons, you will have to understand its limitations and find a way to play around it.
Now there has been some debate with regards to the soulgrinder here as well. One of the builds - the one that I run - is a Tzeentch grinder with phlegm. The other build as recommended by some of the readers is a Slaanesh grinder with the bateful torrent. Both are actually really good grinder builds IMO. In this case, the slaanesh grinder would be more useful against tyranids because tyranids just really don't care about the battle cannon shots (unless you are running tyranids warriors or biovores out in the open). The baleful torrent, however, will burn away screening gribblies with relative ease. So why am I still running phlegm grinders? Because I feel that in my TAC daemon list, the phelgm will be more useful due to the higher probability of facing MEQ armies. There are just so many MEQ armies out there compared to the Xenos that I feel the phlegm would be slightly more useful. Moreover, the ability to insta-kill units makes the phelgm more attractive to me as well, especially since the newest codex out - Chaos Daemons - have so many multi-wound units. However, in the future, you may see me running 1 of each grinder. I think each grinder has its place and in a TAC daemon army, having both types of grinders give you some more flexibility.
This message was edited 23 times. Last update was at 2013/03/25 14:35:21
Which model is the gold sword flying demon?
I need to know for ... reasons.
(I might be starting a Demon army soon - not for competitive sake but because 2 thirsters, 100 letters and 3 cannons just sounds fun.)
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2013/03/20 22:59:38
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons
Why are the daemonettes and bloodletters in the open when going 2nd? They are only t3? You will like the thristers and more importantly you will like the grimnore and the portaglyph, if you combine it with some tzeentch divination it makes it even nastier. I have had 2+ re-rollable saves on the horrors. With 5W base the thirsters are killing machines. You just have to worry about force weapons is all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/20 23:04:18
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rigeld2 wrote: Which model is the gold sword flying demon?
I need to know for ... reasons.
(I might be starting a Demon army soon - not for competitive sake but because 2 thirsters, 100 letters and 3 cannons just sounds fun.)
I don't quite remember, but they made substitute models for the GW Greater Daemons. I got the model maybe about 2 years ago and I just can't remember the name of the company.
If I find out, I will PM you or post it here.
Tomb King wrote: Why are the daemonettes and bloodletters in the open when going 2nd? They are only t3? You will like the thristers and more importantly you will like the grimnore and the portaglyph, if you combine it with some tzeentch divination it makes it even nastier. I have had 2+ re-rollable saves on the horrors. With 5W base the thirsters are killing machines. You just have to worry about force weapons is all.
I put the daemonettes in the front for several reasons:
- They will be the ones to go after and kill any tyranid unit that gets to the Relic first. That is why I need them as close to the Relic as possible.
- Cover won't make a bit of difference, not when flyrants can position themselves to avoid both stealth and shrouded and barrage doesn't care as well. So in this case, their invuln is as good as their cover.
- I actually don't mind the enemy shooting at them because half of the unit is hidden behind the LOS-blocking terrain (and thus can't be killed). Thus, the most they can kill is half of the unit.
Bloodletters are positioned the way they ared in order to try to take some of the heat off of the daemonettes. About half of the letters are hidden as well (I believe).
Honestly, I don't expect my letters and daemonettes to really be able to hold the Relic . No, that job is going to go to perhaps my deepstriking plagues and whatever troops come out from the Portaglyph.
rigeld2 wrote: Which model is the gold sword flying demon?
I need to know for ... reasons.
(I might be starting a Demon army soon - not for competitive sake but because 2 thirsters, 100 letters and 3 cannons just sounds fun.)
I don't quite remember, but they made substitute models for the GW Greater Daemons. I got the model maybe about 2 years ago and I just can't remember the name of the company.
If I find out, I will PM you or post it here.
Tomb King wrote: Why are the daemonettes and bloodletters in the open when going 2nd? They are only t3? You will like the thristers and more importantly you will like the grimnore and the portaglyph, if you combine it with some tzeentch divination it makes it even nastier. I have had 2+ re-rollable saves on the horrors. With 5W base the thirsters are killing machines. You just have to worry about force weapons is all.
I put the daemonettes in the front for several reasons:
- They will be the ones to go after and kill any tyranid unit that gets to the Relic first. That is why I need them as close to the Relic as possible.
- Cover won't make a bit of difference, not when flyrants can position themselves to avoid both stealth and shrouded and barrage doesn't care as well. So in this case, their invuln is as good as their cover.
- I actually don't mind the enemy shooting at them because half of the unit is hidden behind the LOS-blocking terrain (and thus can't be killed). Thus, the most they can kill is half of the unit.
Bloodletters are positioned the way they ared in order to try to take some of the heat off of the daemonettes. About half of the letters are hidden as well (I believe).
Honestly, I don't expect my letters and daemonettes to really be able to hold the Relic . No, that job is going to go to perhaps my deepstriking plagues and whatever troops come out from the Portaglyph.
But why not toss the daemonettes and blood letters into reserve?
By going second you will know where Doom is going to land and you can send your troops somewhere else. I know that he will probably go toward the relic, to dissuade your troops from going there. But honestly, I don't think the daemons are winning this mission by making off with the relic. You have to slaughter every unit that tries to pick it up.
2013/03/21 01:21:01
Subject: Re:1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons
But why not toss the daemonettes and blood letters into reserve?
By going second you will know where Doom is going to land and you can send your troops somewhere else. I know that he will probably go toward the relic, to dissuade your troops from going there. But honestly, I don't think the daemons are winning this mission by making off with the relic. You have to slaughter every unit that tries to pick it up.
They serve no purpose in reserves.
The point of Maximum Threat Overload armies is that you need to make target prioritization difficult for your opponent, not easy. Leave those units in reserves and it becomes much, much easier for your opponent on who he needs to deal with. Leave them on the table and now he has to choose between big, fast nasty flying monsters or scoring walkers or scoring troops who are also dangerous. Basically, you need to make your opponent choose and having more threats on the table then makes his choices much harder.
Also, when playing such an army, you need to play very aggressively to put the pressure on your opponent. If you play defensively (i.e. put your "threats" in reserves), then that is a recipe for disaster. About the only thing you can leave in reserves with this army is the plaguebearers, as they are neither fast nor are they a perceived "threat" (except only to the objectives at the end).
The point of Maximum Threat Overload armies is that you need to make target prioritization difficult for your opponent, not easy. Leave those units in reserves and it becomes much, much easier for your opponent on who he needs to deal with. Leave them on the table and now he has to choose between big, fast nasty flying monsters or scoring walkers or scoring troops who are also dangerous. Basically, you need to make your opponent choose and having more threats on the table then makes his choices much harder.
Also, when playing such an army, you need to play very aggressively to put the pressure on your opponent. If you play defensively (i.e. put your "threats" in reserves), then that is a recipe for disaster. About the only thing you can leave in reserves with this army is the plaguebearers, as they are neither fast nor are they a perceived "threat" (except only to the objectives at the end).
Fair enough, I can see them serving a purpose as a distraction, but first turn you positioned the Greater Daemons so they would be out of range from the Flyrant shots, so target priority wouldn't have been an issue because the Flyrants would have nothing to shoot at. Or were the Greater Daemons in range and the Flyrants choose not to shoot them? So unless that's the case, you just allowed a free turn of shooting for no benefit.
You can also put the pressure on your enemy and force decisions by deep striking the blood letters and daemonettes within charge range of tervigons and backfield objective holders.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/21 01:40:45
2013/03/21 01:50:00
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons
When picking deep strike with the new daemons do you get to drop them turn one?
Or do they just have the same options as any other deep striking unit?
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2013/03/21 02:10:39
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons
Fair enough, I can see them serving a purpose as a distraction, but first turn you positioned the Greater Daemons so they would be out of range from the Flyrant shots, so target priority wouldn't have been an issue because the Flyrants would have nothing to shoot at. Or were the Greater Daemons in range and the Flyrants choose not to shoot them? So unless that's the case, you just allowed a free turn of shooting for no benefit.
You can also put the pressure on your enemy and force decisions by deep striking the blood letters and daemonettes within charge range of tervigons and backfield objective holders.
It was mainly because I felt that daemons needed to get to the Relic as fast as possible - and as a united front so that they can support each other - which was why I deployed the daemonettes up in the front and out in the open. Bloodletters were just to try to draw some of the fire away from the daemonettes. Deepstriking is an option I would consider against many other armies, but not my tyranids. I know my tyranids. Anything that deepstrikes back there in bugland is going to get munched up. It's happened almost every time my opponents have done that against my bugs.
Eldarain wrote: When picking deep strike with the new daemons do you get to drop them turn one?
Or do they just have the same options as any other deep striking unit?
No, they come in as regular reserves now, meaning you roll for them as you would any reserve units starting on Turn 2.
It was mainly because I felt that daemons needed to get to the Relic as fast as possible - and as a united front so that they can support each other - which was why I deployed the daemonettes up in the front and out in the open. Bloodletters were just to try to draw some of the fire away from the daemonettes. Deepstriking is an option I would consider against many other armies, but not my tyranids. I know my tyranids. Anything that deepstrikes back there in bugland is going to get munched up. It's happened almost every time my opponents have done that against my bugs.
What about sending them against the biovores? They do count as scoring for the big guns never tire and they count as points there too. Perhaps sending them into the back would divert enough Tyranid fire power from the front to make it worthwhile.
2013/03/21 05:40:00
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons
This is why i feel the Torrent weapon on the Soul Grinder is better then Phlegm, it's cheaper for one and for two with the Grinder only being BS3 it's going to scatter a lot unlike the Torrent which will always hit something
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/21 05:40:17
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2013/03/21 06:26:28
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons
It was mainly because I felt that daemons needed to get to the Relic as fast as possible - and as a united front so that they can support each other - which was why I deployed the daemonettes up in the front and out in the open. Bloodletters were just to try to draw some of the fire away from the daemonettes. Deepstriking is an option I would consider against many other armies, but not my tyranids. I know my tyranids. Anything that deepstrikes back there in bugland is going to get munched up. It's happened almost every time my opponents have done that against my bugs.
What about sending them against the biovores? They do count as scoring for the big guns never tire and they count as points there too. Perhaps sending them into the back would divert enough Tyranid fire power from the front to make it worthwhile.
Easier said than done. Here are several reasons why that is not a good idea (at least not against my tyranids).
- If I know my opponent is going to do something like that, I would spread out and perhaps even bubble-wrap. It would increase their chance of a mishap.
- You risk coming in on Turn 3 or even Turn 4. And then you cannot do anything until Turn 4 or Turn 5.
- They have no shooting.
- My bugs have easily wiped out deepstriking units like that before. With a focused effort, I have wiped out 20-man bloodletter units, 15-man plaguebearer units with Epidemius and even 2x 9-man screamer units back when they were oh-so-dangerous still. It's easy to under-estimate the firepower of a massed horde. Also, if the unit does not spread out far enough, they are looking at a possible 4 direct-fire pie plates against potentially T2 daemons due to Enfeeble. Yes, it can get downright ugly if you try this tactic against the entire tyranid army with just 1 or 2 deepstriking units.
As for the tyranid "front", I would keep the flyrants swooping and just surround the tervigons with a layer of gants for protection.
Riddick40k wrote: This is why i feel the Torrent weapon on the Soul Grinder is better then Phlegm, it's cheaper for one and for two with the Grinder only being BS3 it's going to scatter a lot unlike the Torrent which will always hit something
The reason I give the grinders phlegm is not because of the cost. Rather, it makes them into a "perceived" threat, especially against MEQ armies. The point of the Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) army is to overload your opponent with more "threats" than they can handle. If you give the grinder a gun that MEQ's don't fear, then they won't perceive the grinders a threat (at least not initially). Thus, it makes target prioritization much easier and in turn, the pressure on your opponent isn't as great. However, everyone fears the battle cannon, both infantry and mech armies. Having a battle cannon on your army (and on a "killable" platform) makes the unit more of a threat that the opponent might actually fire at.
That's another reason why I don't give him the Mark of Nurgle. I WANT you to fire at him rather than at my thirsters or my other fast units. Make him too hard to kill (i.e. shrouded) and your opponents will just ignore him, thus making target prioritization much easier for them. You want your opponent to actually have a chance to kill him, thus encouraging them to fire at your grinders. A bullet-magnet that is too hard to kill isn't a good bullet magnet because your opponent will just not shoot at it.
Don't get me wrong. The torrent weapon is a good weapon. It's just that for the purposes of my army strategy, I need a gun that is scarier than that in order to make my opponent view it as a threat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/21 06:33:07
Your daemon army looks to be nothing more than a crappy version of your Tyranid army. No offense. I would suggest building your army around the strengths of the Daemon codex rather than trying to shoehorn it into a mold it doesn't fit.
Seekers, hounds, horrors, and heralds would be a good start. Putting torrent flamers on the Grinders would sure help you get through those little gribblies. Horrors are great antiflyer. Divi Heralds will buff everything, supporting Seekers/Hounds as they advance, while increasing the power of Horrors..
Just a thought. I believe Nids win, crushing victory
Edit: Although, getting EXTREMELY lucky with those Thirsters against the Tyrants changes things big time.. You can't predict luck like that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/21 14:36:06
My son plays a Tyranid list very similar to that (although he uses fewer Hive Guard and adds two Trygons). Before the new codex I regularly beat him, and if I didn't the games were always close. In the two games we've had since the new book, he's absolutely crushed me.
I'm very interested in the results of this match.
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2013/03/21 15:10:05
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons (Turn 2 up)
I think Tyranids will pick up the victory here. That Daemon list isn't strong enough and really the Bloodthirsters carry it with support from the Grinders. If the Bloodthirsters can be tackled when they are down and then the Grinders both get mashed by monstrous creatures, then Daemons are in for a tough time.
Why did you move the Khorne Prince close to the Termagants and Gargoyles knowing there's a risk for grounding? Seems a risky and slightly biased tactic in 'Nids favour.
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2013/03/21 15:29:48
Subject: 1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons (Turn 2 up)
hippesthippo wrote: Your daemon army looks to be nothing more than a crappy version of your Tyranid army. No offense. I would suggest building your army around the strengths of the Daemon codex rather than trying to shoehorn it into a mold it doesn't fit.
Seekers, hounds, horrors, and heralds would be a good start. Putting torrent flamers on the Grinders would sure help you get through those little gribblies. Horrors are great antiflyer. Divi Heralds will buff everything, supporting Seekers/Hounds as they advance, while increasing the power of Horrors..
Just a thought. I believe Nids win, crushing victory
Edit: Although, getting EXTREMELY lucky with those Thirsters against the Tyrants changes things big time.. You can't predict luck like that.
What exactly are the "strengths" of the daemon codex? Is it MTO daemons? Is it Psychic-shooting daemons with a lot of Level 3 Heralds and pink horror shooting? Is it FMC-spam? Is it horde daemons with 100-120 assault troops supported by a few big or fast guys? Is it a seeker-cavalry-spam? I honestly don't know and at this point, I really can't see for sure which is going to be the predominant competitive daemon build. Because no matter what daemon build you are talking about, daemons will never be as balanced a codex as some of the other armies. The assault elements in the codex are just too great compared to the shooty elements and daemons will never be good at taking down flyer armies (only in ignoring them).
What I can tell you is that MTO daemons, though not horribly balanced (none of them are, actually), is a play-style that I quite enjoy playing and that I think will give a lot of armies problems. Yes, it is far from perfect. Then again, so is the entire daemon codex, but that is probably one of the reasons why we like it so much. There is no clear-cut power build, at least not right now. What I see instead is a lot of fun builds that can potentially beat face and that fits the aggressive style that I've grown accustomed to playing recently.
undertow wrote: My son plays a Tyranid list very similar to that (although he uses fewer Hive Guard and adds two Trygons). Before the new codex I regularly beat him, and if I didn't the games were always close. In the two games we've had since the new book, he's absolutely crushed me.
I'm very interested in the results of this match.
Yeah, bugs have gotten much better in 6th. Back in 5th, it was hard even for me to envision them winning tournaments. Nowadays, I think that is totally within the realm of possibility. Currently, from the perspective of an opponent, I actually dread playing against Tau, Deldar, Orks and Tyranids. They tend to give me more problems than the Imperial armies do.
mercer wrote: I think Tyranids will pick up the victory here. That Daemon list isn't strong enough and really the Bloodthirsters carry it with support from the Grinders. If the Bloodthirsters can be tackled when they are down and then the Grinders both get mashed by monstrous creatures, then Daemons are in for a tough time.
Why did you move the Khorne Prince close to the Termagants and Gargoyles knowing there's a risk for grounding? Seems a risky and slightly biased tactic in 'Nids favour.
The reason for flanking with the FMC's is to try to deny some of the shooting from your opponents army. I go to the flank and I only need to worry about 2 units trying to ground my DP. I go straight for the tervigons, who are screened out BTW, and now I'm going to be a target of 4-5 units that can try to shoot me down/ground me. You need to play FMC's with a little finesse. One mistake and you can lose them quite easily against a good opponent with a balanced list. I felt he had a better chance at staying in the air by going around the flanks.
My problem with Bloodthirsters is that they got so much more fragile with the new codex. I ran one before but always kept him near Fateweaver, and the main reason I ran one was if I fought Grey Knights, I wanted a CC monster with Blessing of the Blood God. Now that Eternal Warrior and BotBG are gone from the Army, I don't have those reasons to bring a Bloodthirster.
I liked the Lord of Change as well, but going from a 3++ to a 5++ with no option to get an armor save really hurts this one as well.
I'm not a fan of the Keeper of Secrets, mostly due to a lack of wings, which really leaves Fateweaver as the only GD I can use to unlock DPs in the Heavy Slot. I'm going to start using him with a Grimiore to give him a 2++ rerollable. Hopefully it works out.
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2013/03/21 23:39:32
Subject: Re:1750 Competitive Test Game - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Bump-N-Grind Daemons (Turn 4 up)
undertow wrote: My problem with Bloodthirsters is that they got so much more fragile with the new codex. I ran one before but always kept him near Fateweaver, and the main reason I ran one was if I fought Grey Knights, I wanted a CC monster with Blessing of the Blood God. Now that Eternal Warrior and BotBG are gone from the Army, I don't have those reasons to bring a Bloodthirster.
I liked the Lord of Change as well, but going from a 3++ to a 5++ with no option to get an armor save really hurts this one as well.
I'm not a fan of the Keeper of Secrets, mostly due to a lack of wings, which really leaves Fateweaver as the only GD I can use to unlock DPs in the Heavy Slot. I'm going to start using him with a Grimiore to give him a 2++ rerollable. Hopefully it works out.
Yeah, you've really got to play them (the daemon MC's) with a little bit of finesse. They aren't unstoppable juggernauts and if you march them directly towards the enemy, you are just asking to get them killed. However, there are a few tricks to keep them alive:
- The Grimoire. Nothing like 3++ on a greater daemon or 2++ re-rollable on Fateweaver.
- Greater Gifts will make your GD more survivable - re-rollable Invuln's, 4+ FNP, 3+ armor and/or +1 Wound and It Will Not Die. There are just so many good gifts here that we make your GD more resilient.
- Exalted Gifts. Even these will help. +1 Wound for every assault won and Rising-from-the-Dead all helps to make your GD live longer.
- Psychic powers. I don't really run this in my MTO list but in my other list with Tzeentch Heralds, it can be useful. With 2 Lvl 3 psykers, there is a good chance you may get Forewarning. Forewarning + Grimoire = 2++ for your GD. Or perhaps you can go for Slaanesh psykers and try to get Invisibility. Then if you happen to get the Re-rollable Invuln greater gift.....
- Make use of terrain. Maneuver behind LOS-blocking terrain or go towards the flanks where enemy firepower is minimized. You have to play smartly with your GD.
- If you're really concerned about enemy shooting, try to get your beastie locked in combat. You do have to be carefully about what units you assault however.
Yeah, it does appear the the GD's are easy to kill, but if you play them correctly, it really isn't. On top of that, you have the rest of your army to try to take some of the heat off of your GD's.
hippesthippo wrote: Your daemon army looks to be nothing more than a crappy version of your Tyranid army. No offense. I would suggest building your army around the strengths of the Daemon codex rather than trying to shoehorn it into a mold it doesn't fit.
Seekers, hounds, horrors, and heralds would be a good start. Putting torrent flamers on the Grinders would sure help you get through those little gribblies. Horrors are great antiflyer. Divi Heralds will buff everything, supporting Seekers/Hounds as they advance, while increasing the power of Horrors..
Just a thought. I believe Nids win, crushing victory
Edit: Although, getting EXTREMELY lucky with those Thirsters against the Tyrants changes things big time.. You can't predict luck like that.
Have to mirror this sentiment. BT's are really not that great for MTO IMO. Not unless your playing a poorly built list or a novice. BT's will at best be in assault T2 against a smart opponent and at 250 pts of pure awesome sauce in combat they will generally wipe whatever they hit meaning come T3 your opponent will blow them away, grimoir on a BT is too unreliable as you have just seen. As for SG's I really am starting to hate phlegm, same justification as before. Smart opponents won't "perceive" a false threat or they aren't smart. A direct fire BS 3 battle canon is really unimpressive, with proper spacing it threatens 3 dudes IF it hits who then can get intervening cover easily because they sit behind your lines meaning 2 dead marines... Again very underwhelming. Now give them MoS and the torrent flamer in case they need to burn a screen and run those guys and you have a very reliable threat to MEQ squads and great horde control. Your build is basically a poor mans LRBT that costs more and isn't av14.
I have to say that despite there not being one predominant build I think your ignoring the fact that there doesn't need to be one build particularly but I definitely think in order to make demons work you need to use heralds as they are force multipliers much like tervigons in your tyranids. Without them most demon infantry is extremely underwhelming. I also would like to add that demons fit the same trend as the other 6th books as they rock the FA slot. Seekers, flesh hounds and the flys are all amazing, even the furies marked and used properly can be awesome. I think no matter the build the best lists will probably exhaust the FA, HQ and troop slots.
Blood letters are sadly the 4th choice unless your playing a theme. They are worse in assault then demonettes, and are less durable then plague B AND horrors.
Great report never the less, I like the twists and turns so far. It always makes for a fun read when the "unthinkable" becomes real
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/22 00:39:20
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