Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It sounds like they learned all the right lessons from the Wyrd Through the Breach kickstarter.

I actually plan on backing this one, as I missed out on Dreadball. But I have a question (since this is my first KS), if I pledge one amount from one credit card, would I be able to pledge more from another? Or can you only pledge once?

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Really don't like kickstarter exclusives.

As in really, really, really don't like them.

A lot of people said the same thing in Dreadball. Me included. Mantics eventual response was they could be bought later on with Mantic points and at shows. Maybe if we press they will say the same thing?

The FAQ says kickstarter exclusive means kickstarter, mantic points and other special occasions. Not sure that will apply to the resin characters, but they do have their asses covered already.

+1 to Scarletsquig and exclusive KS content, definitely more interested in seeing the investment used widely and not on gimmicks.

I'd prefer them to be working on characters available to buy rather than some very limited sculpts. Or the EU models. Or just making sure the Main Four.

Yeah, the Commander and Gen 1 were probably already slotted in for their 'mantic rewards' scheme before they had this idea.

Also, 20k in 8 hours over night is quite impressive.

baritowned wrote:
I actually plan on backing this one, as I missed out on Dreadball. But I have a question (since this is my first KS), if I pledge one amount from one credit card, would I be able to pledge more from another? Or can you only pledge once?

You'll only be able to use a single credit card via KS itself (though you can increase/decrease your pledge up until the campaign ends)

Based on KOW and Dreadball you'll be able to add extra cash in the post KS pledge manager via paypal (so you could use a different CC their)

Man, it may break a stretch and I haven't even gone to sleep yet! Ah, the joys of late-night laundry. Now I fully expect to wake up to see Blaine funded.

 Alpharius wrote:


Well we can’t show you everything now because we’d have nothing new to show you later but what we can do is give you a sneak peak (and we already know that the Rebs Booster contains the Kraaw and the Marauder Booster contains the Hulk!)



Rebs Missile Team – Human and Sphyr loader

That concept art is awesome.

But I do wonder how they'll pull this off as a miniature for the game.

Similar to the 2nd Generation Plague guys, some of the Deadzone playing pieces seem to be almost mini-dioramas.

I'm finding this pretty hard to follow now, are the lists of bonus figures mentioned on the first page included free with those pledge levels or is it above pledge thresholds?

Say I've got an early bird scenery pledge ($95) + 4 premium mats ($75, total=$170), am I eligable for any of these freebies?

Would that change if I went for the non-EB scenery pledge at $100?

The total has jumped by $10k and 21 backers in the last 3 hours.

At a time when both the UK and the US are mostly asleep.

Today is going to be huge.

Also @everyone: Thanks, I'm glad to hear most of you have the same opinion about building a product line vs. marketing gimmicks when it comes to crowdfunding.

Is this the main problem people have with CMoN KS's? From a casual perspective (I've never backed one), they seem to be quite well-run and really effective at getting people to spend insane amounts, but I've never paid much attention to them beyond their kicktraq pages.

Anyway, I've asked about the KS exclusives in the comments, along with mentioning that I'd be happy to pay through the nose for them as add-ons.

I'm finding this pretty hard to follow now, are the lists of bonus figures mentioned on the first page included free with those pledge levels or is it above pledge thresholds?

With those Pledge Levels. Not above pledge thresholds. If you've selected Recon or Strike Team pledge levels, you get the long list of bonus freebies.

Say I've got an early bird scenery pledge ($95) + 4 premium mats ($75, total=$170), am I eligable for any of these freebies?

No, you get nothing.

Would that change if I went for the non-EB scenery pledge at $100?

No, you'd still get nothing.

 scarletsquig wrote:
The total has jumped by $10k and 21 backers in the last 3 hours.

At a time when both the UK and the US are mostly asleep.

Today is going to be huge.

Also @everyone: Thanks, I'm glad to hear most of you have the same opinion about building a product line vs. marketing gimmicks when it comes to crowdfunding.

Is this the main problem people have with CMoN KS's? From a casual perspective (I've never backed one), they seem to be quite well-run and really effective at getting people to spend insane amounts, but I've never paid much attention to them beyond their kicktraq pages.

Anyway, I've asked about the KS exclusives in the comments, along with mentioning that I'd be happy to pay through the nose for them as add-ons.

I don't know.

I don't really get the notion that everything needs to be made "forever". It's a similar problem with GW, where people have this sense of entitlement that a miniature-range that once existed MUST continue to exist and MUST be updated.

I believe that is rather misguided. I don't buy DreadBall or Eldar or Zombicide to have it around for the next 20 years (and supported at that). I buy these things to paint up, have a few months of fun with it and move on to the next hobby-project.

These are games and hobby time, not putting down a mortage for a house.

Yeah, exclusives are kind of a bummer. Though Mantic's handling of them is one of the better ones. They are a special treat to us poor sods hooked in for $400-500, they can be bought later using points (which I still have a few reams of that I never bothered using when I grabbed my WP Forge Fathers) and they are nice treats for con/open day goers.

Besides, they can always do 'em up in restic (rather than resin) later and still keep the resin ones as limited edition (since straight-up resin casting is something that can be done on the cheap in-house when you only need a few hundred made).

So I'm not too put off by it (and hey, it worked for me and got me to upscale to $500) because they are less wasteful about it then a one-time KS exclusive that will never exist again. Though it is still likely to stay in the realm of a loyalty reward for a while. If it ends up that they are later Mantic Point reward items, I'd be happy to send off my spare points to someone who wanted them to grab the alternate sculpts (well the Reb one at least, probably don't have enough for the 1st Gen).

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Yeah, exclusives are kind of a bummer. Though Mantic's handling of them is one of the better ones. They are a special treat to us poor sods hooked in for $400-500, they can be bought later using points.

Currently unconfirmed on that point, with regards to the resins.

In most situations I have no problem with limited edition minis (or anything else)

unless they are for games intended (by their manufacturer) for tournament play which come with different rules not available to the masses

however for a company that clearly has issues (in the opinion of a decent chunk of the community) with some of their sculptors it might not be the best use of their 'star' sculptors time (however if they use one of their new less experienced folk why not)

Huh? But it seems pretty clear in the FAQ near the bottom of the page.

What does "Kickstarter Exclusive" mean?

Here at Mantic we don't want to release figures through Kickstarter that will then penalise customers who miss out on the campaign. However, we do want to keep our Kickstarter exclusives a little bit special. Therefore, although our exclusive releases will never be sold at retail, they will be available later via the Mantic Points Scheme on our website, or offered as promotional figures at conventions that we attend.

I mean, that was my take at least. It would be weird if these two exclusive minis didn't follow the rule laid out in the FAQ. Outside of the Survivor, these are the only other two exclusives so far, no? They both are even referred to with the specific phrase "Kickstarter Exclusive", so there isn't really even semantic wiggle room. Kickstarter Exclusives are later available through points or as promo figures at cons. If they go back on this, then I'll go grab the rope and pitchforks with the rest of y'all (while covetously petting my LE minis ). But the FAQ says what Kickstarter Exclusive means.

The only bit that may happen in addition is that since they are individually numbered resin casts (Mantic always seem to be pretty diligent about material naming) I think we may see them down the line, tooled in restic. But that is just an outside guess.

At the very least it is clear that these will be available as point/promo items at a later date. So not really the classic definition of exclusive as used in other Kickstarter campaigns, just non-retail for the most part.

^ Ah you're right. That's fair enough then. Can't believe I missed that at the bottom of the page!

No worries, it is a long arse page.

 Zweischneid wrote:
I don't know.

I don't really get the notion that everything needs to be made "forever". It's a similar problem with GW, where people have this sense of entitlement that a miniature-range that once existed MUST continue to exist and MUST be updated.

I believe that is rather misguided. I don't buy DreadBall or Eldar or Zombicide to have it around for the next 20 years (and supported at that). I buy these things to paint up, have a few months of fun with it and move on to the next hobby-project.

These are games and hobby time, not putting down a mortage for a house.

If nothing else, it's flat-out stupid. A "sweet spot" where one customer buys 2+ players' worth of game encourages word-of-mouth advertising after release, as your first wave customers each have a complete game that they will naturally want to share with their friends. These friends may then decide to buy a copy for themselves, so that they can still play with their other friends when the first wave customer isn't around. Kickstarter exclusives destroy your ability to take advantage of this free advertising, by refusing to sell your product to these second wave customers.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
In most situations I have no problem with limited edition minis (or anything else)
unless they are for games intended (by their manufacturer) for tournament play which come with different rules not available to the masses
however for a company that clearly has issues (in the opinion of a decent chunk of the community) with some of their sculptors it might not be the best use of their 'star' sculptors time (however if they use one of their new less experienced folk why not)

Well put, and it's my main issue with Mantic doing them now. It's a waste of quality sculptor time (and sculpts!) during a period when we're seeing those those DZ Orx, KoW trolls, cathorse, stretch-armed nuns, et al.

Personally, I'd like to see more little thank yous for the higher pledger. Would like to see another reward at $800 or $900. Would add to my pledge to get them.

 AlexHolker wrote:

If nothing else, it's flat-out stupid. A "sweet spot" where one customer buys 2+ players' worth of game encourages word-of-mouth advertising after release, as your first wave customers each have a complete game that they will naturally want to share with their friends. These friends may then decide to buy a copy for themselves, so that they can still play with their other friends when the first wave customer isn't around. Kickstarter exclusives destroy your ability to take advantage of this free advertising, by refusing to sell your product to these second wave customers.

Perhaps. But 90% of your customers in this business are "1st wave customers" who do nothing more with the stuff than park it unpainted in their garage.

That's why GW works the way it does with sequential "block-buster releases". That's why Kickstarters work they way they do. "2nd wave" is irrelevant. You'll make far more doing a different Kickstarter, including new and different "exclusives"

I never heard anyone fretting over not getting some exclusive from .. dunno .. last year's Zombicide. They'd just get into Deadzone instead. Or wait for Zombicide 3. Or get some GW instead.

Mantic Games wrote:All of the mercenaries going forward will be kickstarter exclusive - and they're all featured on the locked diagram on Recon and Strike Team. Plenty more exclusive stuff coming

I might not agree with this approach, but if it nets them another $500k+ in the last 2 days then I'll be happy enough. I just hope it works and they're relatively easy to pick up with Mantic points, so we don't get stuck with a game where you're not allowed to buy half of the mercs in the rulebook.

Unfortunately, it seems most people do seem to like KS exclusives, and even expect/demand them from kickstarters these days.

I think that's part of the problem, there were a lot of comments in this KS about people specifically asking for exclusives as add-ons. So, in many ways they're just doing what "the usual KS crowd" wants.

I never heard anyone fretting over not getting some exclusive from .. dunno .. last year's Zombicide. They'd just get into Deadzone instead. Or wait for Zombicide 3. Or get some GW instead.

Exactly, they see all the exclusives they can't get and then either go "screw it" and play something else, OR they spend $1000 on ebay to buy a complete set of the KS exclusives.

And that above figure is not an exaggeration, early on in the DZ KS comments, someone stated that they managed to sell their complete season 1 set of exclusives for that price.

As it stands, 5 of the mercs in Deadzone will be available to buy at retail, and 5 will not. If they make the last 5 too hard to get via mantic points, *and* the last 5 have really good, fun, rules then that's a real problem, since KS backers will have an in-game advantage over retail buyers.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Perhaps. But 90% of your customers in this business are "1st wave customers" who do nothing more with the stuff than park it unpainted in their garage.

Do you have a source for this? It does not represent what I have seen.

 Yonan wrote:

Do you have a source for this? It does not represent what I have seen.

No.

Just my observation of being a in and out of the hobby for some 2 decades. Or any other hobby for that matter.

I am pretty sure a major share (as in > 50%) of sales for golf clubs comes from people who pick up golf and drop it again within a year. The 20-year-veterans are the exception and - year-by-year - not nearly as profitable. Model Railways. Skiing. Legions of Home Trainer Bikes dusting in people's cellars. Whatever...

But it's only my biased observation.

And those that give in to the "completionist-itch" - rather than buying at small "paintable" quantities are often the worst. Again, just my observation, and not just miniature wargames. When I was doing more pen-and-paper RPGs, I frequently met people who had entire shelves filled with every single expansion-book for D&D or Vampire: The Masquerade or whatever (and they made lots of books). Most of them unread. They just "had-to-have-them-all".

And it is especially, especially true for the "buy-a-lot-get-a-bargain" kind of offers that Kickstarter caters to. I've seen people buy 5-for-the-price-of-3 computer games or DvDs, only to never even unwrap most of them. But it "was such a great deal". Go to Tescos, etc.. and watch people stock up on more "buy-one-get-one-free" sausages than they could ever eat. But it's "such a great deal". It's the nature of the business.


Is there any source for an alleged ""sweet spot" where one customer buys 2+ players' worth of game encourages word-of-mouth advertising after release"?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[edit]

'That said, for anecdotal evidence at least, just browse the 40K forum (or any other game-sub forum) for discussions on topics such as "why can't I stick with an army" etc...

This is a recent example: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/528708.page

And these are "only" the people "still in it" and committed to change their habits. Doesn't account for those that just dropped entirely after spending cash on minis somewhere.

 Ardaric_Vaanes wrote:
I have a habit of buying models then letting them sit on the shelf for years before touching them.

Humans buy on impulse. And the more "time-intensive" a given product/hobby is, the greater will be the share of people who never end up doing much with their "impulse buy".

Successful miniature companies try to maximise their revenues from these "impulse" purchase. A not insignificant part of the success of Kickstarter in general is the sense of "urgency" it creates: the "now-or-never". Or at least "now-or-never-again-as-cheap".

The planned, conscientious customers aren't the ones driving profit in this business.

40 new backers and $18k pledged in the first 6 hours of today.

If this keeps up, we're well on-track for $100k or so as today's total.

And that's before the 48-hour email goes out.

A random thought that occurs to me; they could really go back and tweak the basic troopers some.

I was trying to work up some army lists for the Enforcers (and largely failing because I gave up on figuring out unit sizes and went to go do other things) when I noticed you'd need a lot of the guys with rifles. You get 4 in each starter, but you'll probably be aiming for the add-on. However, $10 for three minis isn't so hot compared to $50 for 30 with the booster bundles. I wouldn't mind seeing some bigger bundles of the basic troops on offer, though I'd understand if they're worried about hurting their eventual WP KS...

Still waiting to see where my best value is since I want Enforcers and terrain, but am also one of those terrible impulse buyers that Z refers to.

 Krinsath wrote:


Still waiting to see where my best value is since I want Enforcers and terrain, but am also one of those terrible impulse buyers that Z refers to.

Hey, I never said it's terrible!

Quite the opposite. It strikes me as far more human and relatable than the assumed "coldly-calculating", "robot-like" consumer people keep bringing up when they're saying that GW (or whoever else) is doing it "wrong".

Companies like GW, Kickstarter or Mantic Games don't have the power to change human psychology. They can only try to thrive as a business knowing how it works (or fail as a business by catering mainly to some imaginary, economically prudent 20-year-long-time-customer, of which I would argue not enough exist - and those that do don't spend enough - to drive a business like theirs).

I know it's probably in the thread already, but is there a picture to show you what the building sprues you get at Recon level (which i've backed at) look like assembled, just so I can gauge if it's enough for me?

Everyone now gets a free dreadball MVP as a special surprise reward for beating the DB total.

@xowainx: "Urban fight" in this picture: