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How was my comment somewhat spun into an attack on the mods? It was just an observation that even gave them the benefit of the doubt.

It might just be the paintjob, but that giant Marauder model looks MUCH better than the concept art I saw.

~Tim?

I think they do - as long as they don't dominate and/or derail.

Not showing production models now is starting to smell funny.

At the same time, look at all the other miniature KS you've pledged for. My most recent one that has shipped, Warzone, showed only the resin masters and not even that for all the items. It hasn't been something that KS projects have all been showing. I think the whole thing is being blown out of proportion.

It is more other issues like another KS currently running and the recent metals that have people on edge, but that offense alone is hardly justifying the backlash as it has not been an expectation put on very many companies, and nobody was saying anything about.

So...because a lot of companies are doing stuff that isn't that good, or what we'd all like, it is...OK to continue to do so?

I mean, there's support, and then there's....this.

There is actually doing something crooked and then there is expecting something that just hasn't been happening in a lot of other places. It's the "They must be doing something wrong and trying to trick us" mentality that is completely off base.

WWX has not been showing any production plastics. I don't see people acting like they are violating any KS terms like I see agnosto and others showing. I'm not seeing the same criticism. The thought there was must be something wrong BECAUSE they didn't take pictures and show them is what is off target, as not many companies have been.

Why weren't these same "they must be up to no good" criticism being thrown at Prodos for the same thing?

It's not me being "overly supportive". It's me saying calm down and chill. This hasn't been an expectation placed by and large yet and these accusations shouldn't be made for the offense (that in other places isn't seen as an offense).

The difference is that neither WWX nor Prodos games failed to show production models and then delivered extremely poor product on previous Kickstarter campaigns.

Worry about Prodos not showing production models is very different from Mantic not showing production models.

 Gallahad wrote:
The difference is that neither WWX nor Prodos games failed to show production models and then delivered extremely poor product on previous Kickstarter campaigns.

Worry about Prodos not showing production models is very different from Mantic not showing production models.

And I mentioned that in the first post. The metals, the men at arms, the Season 1 Dreadball flashing and mold lines to add some other fuel if you'd like.

I'm pointing out that not showing anything but the Master is common and not in and of itself a hint of problems. It wasn't an expectation before. Should be made one in the future? Yes. But it wasn't made one previously.

I've jabbed at Mantic for spreading themselves too thin, having a seeming lack of a sound, long term business plan, selling out and further cheapening their IP to increase sales (which is more evidence of lack of long term thinking), overlapping their KS projects a little too much, not doing enough plastic kits (Dreadball box set in particular)......I can list plenty.

At the same time I'll give them props that they held off on the Plastic enforcers(which is a bit of evidence other things aren't going.....as poorly in the very least as a portion also have model they could sub in like the Enforcers), ensured the scenery clips were done right, and realized they should move the basic Enforcer, Asterian, and Forge Father kits to plastic with the overages.

I have my concerns on what might be showing next month, but folks have taken a single issue, which hasn't been an industry expectation before now, and are making it into a sign of sure doom. It's a little overdone at this point.

Mantic has had some special f--ups, so Mantic gets special treatment.

Sweet, the mats have arrived. Mantic showing them off with what looks to be a rebel model.

I think people need to realize that at least Mantic is coming through with the KS items. There are a good number of 'gaming community' kickstarters that aren't providing their items. At least we are getting our stuff.

My only real complaint with any of the Mantic kickstarters has been that they don't label the dang miniatures in the bags, so you have to sort through and make sure everything is correct. You'd still have to do that anyway, but it'd be easier with the miniatures labeled.

 Imaginos wrote:


My only real complaint with any of the Mantic kickstarters has been that they don't label the dang miniatures in the bags, so you have to sort through and make sure everything is correct. You'd still have to do that anyway, but it'd be easier with the miniatures labeled.

Amen. At least they could take a picture of each bag and list its correct contents on the web so you could use it as a reference.

 Gallahad wrote:
The difference is that neither WWX nor Prodos games failed to show production models and then delivered extremely poor product on previous Kickstarter campaigns.

shrug, all of my Mantic KS stuff has been excellent. The vast majority of KoW and overwhelming (if not all) of Dreadball has been perfect.

off the top of my head, and of course, these are my opinions:
fantastic - goblin mawbeast riders (these really are just amazing sculpts), immortal guard, gargoyles, elohi, mincers
good - paladins, stormwind cav, palace guard, chariots, fight wagons, dark knights, mummies, werewolves, brock riders
poor - trolls, nuns, men at arms

I saw the majority of these figs beforehand (and why I ordered even more mawbeast riders). Most of them were free stretch goals, so the figs I didn't like I just traded to someone who did, for other figs I wanted. Still the best KS deal I've ever had and will probably never be topped.

I only got 6 Dreadball teams - the original 4 plus Teratons and Nameless - loved the sculpts on all of them.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Mantic has had some special f--ups, so Mantic gets special treatment.

Heh!

Pretty much though.

Sadly, this fact seems to fit squarely in Earth Dragon's blind spot.

Still, the recent shots of Deadzone production models seem to help reduce some of the apprehension that we were headed in the same direction, again.

Sadly Alpharius doesn't understand the overall point and refuses to. The recent pics show they weren't hiding anything and it wasn't certain doom. It just wasn't an expectation before hand for really any company to ensure pictures of production models pasted the Master Resins.

Now they've heard some noise so they can choose what to do with it from there. When you change the rules in the middle of the game you can't expect for immediate compliance.

So, the pdf doesn't have the cards in it. Nor apparently does the version that they are selling for $10...

Was that a mistake? I hope so, because I would like to play some warm up games.

~Eric

Hrm, I hadn't considered that the book did not contain the cards. Though, why should it really? You get a faction deck with your faction. I don't think Deadzone is meant to sell at anything less than the Plague Vs enforcers retail box size. I realize they sell faction starters and individual minis, but I think thats more for after you have your main game.

I guess what I'm getting at is its kind of like buying the 40k rulebook, it doesn't come with any army specific codex-plurals. And most ways you buy deadzone will come with the cards you need so thats why they aren't in the book.

Blah blah, regardless, it is a problem for playing *right now*.

You/I/many of us should give Mantic a buzz through whichever channels we've decided are most effective and see if they've got the cards anywhere in a PDF as well...

Then of course, given how little it looks like the rules have changed, you might just nab the most recent PDF's of the beta cards off of Jake's Quirkworthy blog:

I *think* I nabbed links to the most recent iteration of each:

http://quirkworthy.com/2013/08/12/deadzone-faction-deck-enforcers/

http://quirkworthy.com/2013/08/13/deadzone-faction-deck-plague/

http://quirkworthy.com/2013/08/13/deadzone-faction-deck-marauders/

http://quirkworthy.com/2013/08/13/deadzone-faction-deck-rebels/

http://quirkworthy.com/2013/08/12/deadzone-mercenaries/

Probably not as shiny as you were looking for... but it should get you through some 95% legit games while you wait

Earth Dragon wrote:
Sadly Alpharius doesn't understand the overall point and refuses to. The recent pics show they weren't hiding anything and it wasn't certain doom. It just wasn't an expectation before hand for really any company to ensure pictures of production models pasted the Master Resins.

Now they've heard some noise so they can choose what to do with it from there. When you change the rules in the middle of the game you can't expect for immediate compliance.

That's a fething hilarious spin on that particular issue, but, yeah whatever.

Believe me, I'm VERY happy that the recent production miniatures look good and match the concept art.

Something that hasn't, you know, always been the case.

 GrimDork wrote:

http://quirkworthy.com/2013/08/12/deadzone-faction-deck-enforcers/

http://quirkworthy.com/2013/08/13/deadzone-faction-deck-plague/

http://quirkworthy.com/2013/08/13/deadzone-faction-deck-marauders/

http://quirkworthy.com/2013/08/13/deadzone-faction-deck-rebels/

http://quirkworthy.com/2013/08/12/deadzone-mercenaries/

Probably not as shiny as you were looking for... but it should get you through some 95% legit games while you wait

Thanks for digging those up for us. I appreciate it.

Over on the Lead Adventure Forum, Andrew Rae posted that he contacted Mantic and they told him the cards would be going out to us in a pdf soon.

So, keep an eye out, I guess.

~Eric

Yeah mantic said plague and enforcer (only) PDF(s) coming next week. On the dz comments.

http://www.manticblog.com/index.php/2013/11/14/deadzone-hits-the-mantic-bunker/

Deadzone has arrived! Hopefully we'll see more production shots ASAP

 Taarnak wrote:

Thanks for digging those up for us. I appreciate it.

Over on the Lead Adventure Forum, Andrew Rae posted that he contacted Mantic and they told him the cards would be going out to us in a pdf soon.

So, keep an eye out, I guess.

~Eric

That's good to know. I can't remember where, but we were specifically told that cards would come with the PDF rules when the KS was being funded. This is especially important for me. Even though I have Rebs and Forgefathers coming, I'd like to use some of the myriad sci-fi figures I have for other factions. Also for those who may play Warpath and wish to try deadzone, the cards (or at least printable/copiable sheets) should be included.

So, it turns out that after this delivers, I'd have 150 Enforcer models in total. This includes Howlett and Recon. Of course, then Mantic made their generous offer to include a pack of the 5 current Enforcers due to those of us waiting on pure plastic Enforcers in our faction starters. Meaning my number goes up to 160 (2 faction starters). I'm now at 160. I think I may have a problem...how will I ever field 160 Enforcer models?! Even when Warpath 3.0 hits! Under 2.0, I can only field like 40 Enforcers. I have quite a bit more than that...

 lord_blackfang wrote:
http://www.manticblog.com/index.php/2013/11/14/deadzone-hits-the-mantic-bunker/

Deadzone has arrived! Hopefully we'll see more production shots ASAP

Yeah, they really should have given us more pics of actual models, but, yeah, it must be any minute/day now, right?

 timetowaste85 wrote:
So, it turns out that after this delivers, I'd have 150 Enforcer models in total. This includes Howlett and Recon. Of course, then Mantic made their generous offer to include a pack of the 5 current Enforcers due to those of us waiting on pure plastic Enforcers in our faction starters. Meaning my number goes up to 160 (2 faction starters). I'm now at 160. I think I may have a problem...how will I ever field 160 Enforcer models?! Even when Warpath 3.0 hits! Under 2.0, I can only field like 40 Enforcers. I have quite a bit more than that...

Could give some skirts and pom poms to cheer on their fellows on the tabletop ; p

Aside from using them on both sides in some kind of 'training day' ... Hrm.

Yeah, I threw together a list using Warpath 2.0 rules for them and could only get 50 models on the table. 2 snipers, 3 captains, 2 strike teams, 3 HW squads, 3 assault squads. Of course, I don't remember how many models make a "steady" unit. If it's 10, back to the drawing board, I'll have too many characters. We'll see when I look again later. Right now I just care about getting them painted.

Warpath 3.0 will let you use the lot, no doubts about that from what we've heard about it.

Or, at the very least you'll be totally spoilt for choice as far as army list selection goes.

I just bought a dirt cheap sedition wars box for use in Deadzone, the extra minis for the Rebs will be sweet.

It's looking likely that my Rebs will have minis from 4 different lines (DZ, Urban War, Sedition Wars, Mars Attacks). Possibly more. I just love the whole assortment of random aliens and ragtag humans.

I think I'm at about 100+ Rebs minis and counting with my total, definitely already Warpath-worthy.

 scarletsquig wrote:
It's looking likely that my Rebs will have minis from 4 different lines (DZ, Urban War, Sedition Wars, Mars Attacks). Possibly more. I just love the whole assortment of random aliens and ragtag humans.

I think I'm at about 100+ Rebs minis and counting with my total, definitely already Warpath-worthy.

Rebs my fave due to that variety, however I'm really happy with the minis the game comes with for them so I'm knackered wrt using more minis from elsewhere for the time being as I want to use all of them haha. Hard to argue with Kraaw and Judwan (my faves) let alone Zees, Sorak, Yndij and Grogan! The humies looked really good too though, especially the commander. The one non-deadzone line I'm thinking of using so far though are the WWX minis which I hope scale well with Deadzone as the outlaws will make awesome Rebel humies.

I also like almost the entire Rebs faction sculpts, and want to emphasize that they were all hand-sculpted. Everyone here is well-aware of that, but sometimes discussions of Mantic's hand-sculpted models vs. their computer rendered ones seem to emphasize only the negative aspects of models created by hand. When we focus only on the Marauders or Plague 3rd gens, it feels like the take-away message is that Mantic's hand-sculpts are poor, while their computer sculpts are good. I won't argue that their ratio of success in converting concept art to successful final sculpts is much higher with computer rendering than with hand-sculpting so far. But the Rebs, one of Deadzone's stand-out factions, are one area where Mantic got concept-to-hand sculpt absolutely right.

It makes you wonder how Mantic's talented sculptors got the 3rd Gens / Marauders "wrong"*. Sylvain, the in-house sculptor who did the 3rd Gens, is extremely talented, which makes me think that the problem lies with the concept (not necessarily the same as concept art) he was given to work with. Bone spikes, steroids, and rage aren't really very original or interesting mutations. Even going in the complete opposite direction, having 3rd Gens look absolutely normal, would have been more interesting. If the effects of the Plague on 3rd Gen victims were limited to corrupting the mind, they could have served as infiltrators and generated a lot of story possibilities. It is entirely possible that when he sculpted the 3rd Gens with gorilla arms, long torsos, and tiny legs, Sylvain was following the company's intended design very closely. (Whether that design corresponded exactly with the concept art or not. We don't know what he was told in the Mantic studios.) Design choices also played some role in the Marauder issues, as Mantic was clearly trying to revamp their earlier Marauders and align them more closely with certain GW Ork styles. In other words, when Mantic sculptures fall short*, that is sometimes more attributable to the vision of the company taking a "wrong turn" than to the talent of the sculptor. Sometimes.

I am fascinated, and a little concerned, by the industry's increasing turn towards computer rendering. I don't see it as a bad thing at all, but I don't want them to make the same mistake George Lucas made in the Phantom Menace - throwing out all the old hand crafted techniques of puppetry, stop-motion, miniature modelling, and replacing them wholesale with (often lifeless) CGI. I think computer rendering is here to stay, and thank goodness for that. But I hope hand-sculpting is here to stay as well, in some capacity. I'm happy to see companies expand their toolkit with computer rendered models, but I hope they don't abandon manual sculpts altogether in the process.

* It's hard to keep qualifying everything you say and keep your post short, so I'll just acknowledge here that my valuations aren't absolute "fact," but very much a matter of personal taste. If you love the 3rd Gens or Marauder commandos (and really it's the 3rd gens I dislike most), I respect your opinion.

 scarletsquig wrote:

I just bought a dirt cheap sedition wars box for use in Deadzone, the extra minis for the Rebs will be sweet.

@Scarlet Squig - I have Sedition Wars too, and would love to integrate it with Deadzone - Sedition Wars being a prime example of a much more interesting conception of a mutating / zombifying disease given much more imaginative execution in the final sculpts. I just worry that the Sedition Wars figures won't scale well with Mantic's and will end up being too small to use, especially the soldiers and humanoid zombies. Is this not a concern for you, or do Mantic's figures generally scale well with Sedition Wars? I only have Remy's Veer-myn to compare my Sedition Wars figures with, and given their idiosyncratic size, Veer-myn tend to look good alongside anything, but don't represent Mantic's general figure scale very well.