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Which if any SM Codex or Codices would you cut?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Which would you cut?
Codex: Space Marines
Codex: Black Templars
Codex: Blood Angels
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Space Wolves
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
I would add one/some (post which)
GW already has it right
Codex: Grey Knights

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 Anfauglir wrote:
JWhex wrote:
The answer is. . . . .

The number of codexes for marines depends on how GW plans to market its, by far, most popular models.

Suggestions to roll the SW or BA into the regular marine codex are extremely naive because of the model GW uses to successfully sell marines. As long as these lines sell lots of models they will continue to have their own codex until forever.

I think there's a slight circular trap in effect, though. Marines got more attention and so became the biggest seller, which then got them more attention which in turn led to more sales... and around and around it goes. I think that if the other forces got more attention, and more frequent updates, then their sales would improve. SM will sell no matter what at this point. So the only outcome would be a better, more balanced and enriched hobby for all players and collectors in the long run. However, I feel that GW focus more on the here and now of their profit margins, and if all they see is SM = £££ then the vicious cycle will continue.


Dark Eldar got an update, and they sold very well

Necrons got an update, and they sold very well.

Course it depends, if the update sucks (CSM, Tyranids) only specific things will sell very well. (Heldrake)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/30 14:01:12


 
   
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I'd just make one codex for Loyalists and one for Chaos. You can take your different Chapters and explain a bit about each and what makes them different(tactics, equipment, colors, etc.).

As for Chaos, well, they've done that since I started playing back in 1999. You don't see one codex for Khorne, one fore Tzeentch, Undivided, etc. You have one codex and it's all fit neatly within. Now, was that sohard GW?

(Besides, Chaos is so much more Metal than Loyalists )


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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Dark Eldar got an update, and they sold very well

Necrons got an update, and they sold very well.

Course it depends, if the update sucks (CSM, Tyranids) only specific things will sell very well. (Heldrake)

Case in point.

Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
   
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 Fafnir wrote:
Black Templar, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels could all be easily rolled back into a standardized loyalist codex, but expanded to fit more variant chapters.
I don't necessarily like the Space Wolf codex, but it's just barely different enough to stand on its own.

Grey Knights should be scaled back and folded into a greater (and this time, fully functioning and independent) Inquisitional codex.


Exactly.


 
   
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Only if the greater inquisitorial codex did not include Sisters. We need less Marine codices, not less non-Marine codices.

Hell even during C:WH they weren't actually a part of the inquisition, they just so happened to work with the Inquisition occasionally.

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In the 40k rumor thread on warseer, it is not looking too good for the Black Templars. Hastings has practically said that as far as he can tell the BT will be rolled into the next SM book which will have some version of the old trait system.

In any event, by early next year the SM codex should be out and we will know the fate of the BT. If they are not in the trait system as a chapter then they will probably get a new codex. I am betting they are rolled into the SM book.

   
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JWhex wrote:
In the 40k rumor thread on warseer, it is not looking too good for the Black Templars. Hastings has practically said that as far as he can tell the BT will be rolled into the next SM book which will have some version of the old trait system.


Whoo! this is great news. Not necessarily rolling into the BT part (I don't care either way), but the return of the traits. SM dex just has to be more flexible, if it is supposed to be used to represent anything from Ultramarines and Raven Guard to Space Sharks and Minotaurs.

   
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 Crimson wrote:
JWhex wrote:
In the 40k rumor thread on warseer, it is not looking too good for the Black Templars. Hastings has practically said that as far as he can tell the BT will be rolled into the next SM book which will have some version of the old trait system.


Whoo! this is great news.





 Crimson wrote:

Not necessarily rolling into the BT part (I don't care either way),

Nice.


 Crimson wrote:

but the return of the traits. SM dex just has to be more flexible, if it is supposed to be used to represent anything from Ultramarines and Raven Guard to Space Sharks and Minotaurs.

So traits did what exactly for the non-Ultramarine last time?
All of the known chapters had some sort of pre made traits combos.
... the Raven Guard got this great " less vehicles" idea and a pic with an armored column in the dex.... YAY
So traits are just another word for a group of USR to "buy".
Imagine the usual "best buy" approach.

Still happy? Because I can spot a flaw there. Called : UM = poster boyz = all the Toys.
You sure one should have less options because he plays RG or IH etc ?


Oh, as 1 of April, I could say the Codex will expand to "Legio Astartes" and the IG is rolled back in as Imperial Army, see? ( hint: I know a country where IG isn't Imperiale Garde. )



Automatically Appended Next Post:
JWhex wrote:
I am betting they are rolled into the SM book.

You like to lose a bet? Why?

BT in a codex: codex adherent chapters doesn't fit.
Until you meant : BT deleted and the remnants of the BT re-organized along the successors of the former Imperial Fists Space Marine Legion, thus we get yellow , blue and black sons of Dorn following a codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/01 15:13:55


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You like to lose a bet? Why?

BT in a codex: codex adherent chapters doesn't fit.
Until you meant : BT deleted and the remnants of the BT re-organized along the successors of the former Imperial Fists Space Marine Legion, thus we get yellow , blue and black sons of Dorn following a codex.


Once again, why is something that doesn't adhere to a specific combat system more important to having it's own dex then what could be granted to CSM and it's god books.
   
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Dunno, CSMs are still jsut space marines of a different color. While I certainly agree that there's too many SM books, I don't think that can be solved by adding more CSM books

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I agree with those who say that Codex Space Marines should really be Codex Astartes, and feature all the chapters that are codex adherent.

I agree with the non-Codex adherent chapters getting their own books. You really can't roll them into a loyalist book since, asides from their statlines, they really don't have a common framework to share.

I do think the Codex Astartes should be a much larger / more in depth book than the individual non-codex chapters. The current Codex Space Marines book is an Ultramarines lovefest with some acknowledgement of other chapters such as Fists of Dorn etc.

The way you can do this is to have two sections: one is the common codex compliant troop selections that any codex compliant chapter would use. The second section focuses on the various chapters that play a major role. One-two pages max per chapter including rules for special characters that are unique to those particular chapters. Maybe select generic Chapter Masters / Captains from those chapters giving them access to special rules unique to those chapters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/01 17:14:31


 
   
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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

You like to lose a bet? Why?

BT in a codex: codex adherent chapters doesn't fit.
Until you meant : BT deleted and the remnants of the BT re-organized along the successors of the former Imperial Fists Space Marine Legion, thus we get yellow , blue and black sons of Dorn following a codex.


Once again, why is something that doesn't adhere to a specific combat system more important to having it's own dex then what could be granted to CSM and it's god books.


You know, back in the day of 3rd, CSM were just Spiky SM... but they got their own dex, not a smallish mini-dex to field them based on the SM dex.
So combat systems seem to matter...

The BT are a different theme. Codex SM covers the followers of a standardized structure. Codex BT the still crusading marines, fleet based and less tied down in ruling Fiefdoms or Imperial politics in general.
The CSM however are the rest of the traitor Legions, splintered and leading other mortal followers of chaos. Again a theme.

Do you really spot anything that justifies a codex per chaos entitiy?
GW covered chaos with a book of demonic warhosts and (im)mortal warhosts of chaos.

Are you asking for a "fair" split? Like one dex per Empire/Realm?



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If anything, my suggestion would be to consolidate all the marine books into one, where chapter specific options make your army that chapter.

Purchasable upgrades, special HQ's, and various other things would make the book excellent.


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1hadhq wrote:

BT in a codex: codex adherent chapters doesn't fit.
Add a page with options for mixed scout/tac squads, vows, and the emperor's champion. Done.


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 1hadhq wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

You like to lose a bet? Why?

BT in a codex: codex adherent chapters doesn't fit.
Until you meant : BT deleted and the remnants of the BT re-organized along the successors of the former Imperial Fists Space Marine Legion, thus we get yellow , blue and black sons of Dorn following a codex.


Once again, why is something that doesn't adhere to a specific combat system more important to having it's own dex then what could be granted to CSM and it's god books.


You know, back in the day of 3rd, CSM were just Spiky SM... but they got their own dex, not a smallish mini-dex to field them based on the SM dex.
So combat systems seem to matter...

The BT are a different theme. Codex SM covers the followers of a standardized structure. Codex BT the still crusading marines, fleet based and less tied down in ruling Fiefdoms or Imperial politics in general.
The CSM however are the rest of the traitor Legions, splintered and leading other mortal followers of chaos. Again a theme.

Do you really spot anything that justifies a codex per chaos entitiy?
GW covered chaos with a book of demonic warhosts and (im)mortal warhosts of chaos.

Are you asking for a "fair" split? Like one dex per Empire/Realm?




Back in 2nd, CSM had daemons and different weaponry to help separate them from standard marines, along with a whole ton of mutations and various chaotic weaponry, not to mention they've been around back in Rogue Trader they had Realms of Chaos and were far before 3rd edition.

Not to mention that there's a ton of difference between each god. A book of Khorne will have vastly different War Machines and Vehicles in comparison to Book of Tzeentchs war machine. A difference between C:SM and BT is going to be one of minor differences, where scouts and marines intermingle.

Dunno, CSMs are still jsut space marines of a different color. While I certainly agree that there's too many SM books, I don't think that can be solved by adding more CSM books


Oh I know, I'm just posing a question. Where as CSM in different god books (Forces of Khorne for example) would be vastly different from Non-codex astartes book number #4. If such a "vast" difference in forces allows them to keep their book, why do they argue against others getting books of their own, despite the Vast changes that would be given?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/01 17:46:35


 
   
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 Vaktathi wrote:
1hadhq wrote:

BT in a codex: codex adherent chapters doesn't fit.
Add a page with options for mixed scout/tac squads, vows, and the emperor's champion. Done.



I don't think codices will be printed in DIN A 0.



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I wouldn't cut any.

But I wonder what SM army people would be calling to be cut if BT was updated before DA?

   
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I think that GW should roll all the sub marine codex's into one big one. Same with Chaos and Chaos Demons. Have all the armies and their respected abilities, just throw them all into one big codex. It will make it more cost effective for the player's and will also pick at the players interests into the other army builds, meaning more models sold. Just mt opinion.

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I would cut Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and probably Grey Knights. I feel that the only Codex worth its salt is Space Wolves; the other except GK could just be made with special characters based on the conventional SM Codex. Grey Knights themselves... maybe. I guess they are too different to accurately represent with just a special character and some additional options.

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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


A difference between C:SM and BT is going to be one of minor differences, where scouts and marines intermingle.


Minor differences must have a very different interpretation in your hometown. I guess the Word you are looking for is Major.

Now, am not saying the codices are unknown and maybe you have read them. But this thread infers a lot of posters just remember there was something with mixed squads and that what makes a BT..
There is more than that.





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 1hadhq wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


A difference between C:SM and BT is going to be one of minor differences, where scouts and marines intermingle.


Minor differences must have a very different interpretation in your hometown. I guess the Word you are looking for is Major.
Such as? No Librarians, some Vows, mixed tac/scout squads, and a 2W fighty HQ guy. Not exactly something that needs its own book when you can fit it all on a page or two of normal size and text.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/01 20:16:06


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 1hadhq wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


A difference between C:SM and BT is going to be one of minor differences, where scouts and marines intermingle.


Minor differences must have a very different interpretation in your hometown. I guess the Word you are looking for is Major.

Now, am not saying the codices are unknown and maybe you have read them. But this thread infers a lot of posters just remember there was something with mixed squads and that what makes a BT..
There is more than that.






Well that depends. Dark Eldar and Eldar are Eldar, they have the same statline in most things, and are quite related.

However as a Major Difference is that they share no major wargear between them. The Average Eldar uses Shuriken weaponry, while as a whole Dark Eldar uses Poison based weaponry and the only real weapon shared between them is the Dark Lance/Lance being at the same stats. Eldar use an entirely different aspect base for their units, while dark eldar get mutants and mutations based around pain. The differences between the two are Major

The difference between Black Templar and C:SM are ideological based, and at best there's a few different things between them, you'll still be using the standard Imperium Armory with some partial differences when it comes to units. This is why I consider it Minor

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/01 20:17:17


 
   
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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The difference between Black Templar and C:SM are ideological based, and at best there's a few different things between them, you'll still be using the standard Imperium Armory with some partial differences when it comes to units. This is why I consider it Minor

The same can be said of Chaos Marines.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The difference between Black Templar and C:SM are ideological based, and at best there's a few different things between them, you'll still be using the standard Imperium Armory with some partial differences when it comes to units. This is why I consider it Minor

The same can be said of Chaos Marines.


True enough I suppose, with the current continuation of 4.0's failure into making it a counterpart of C:SM

Of course before then Chaos had daemons, squad leaders and HQ's could buy mutations to make them different, the average CSM was more elite then basic space marines (Able to take Veteran skills on all troops, rather then just elites)

Though there's still enough major changes between the two with marks being a prevalent differentiate wargear, vast number of different units (Can BT take something different enough to be like Possessed, spawn, Daemon Princes?) That would still be major enough compared to BT.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/01 20:36:17


 
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The difference between Black Templar and C:SM are ideological based, and at best there's a few different things between them, you'll still be using the standard Imperium Armory with some partial differences when it comes to units. This is why I consider it Minor

The same can be said of Chaos Marines.
Chaos Marines however often have very different equipment and stats in addition to different methods of operation. A coven of Tzeentch Sorcerors with rubric marine guardians for instance doesn't really have an analogue elsewhere. Likewise, Obliterators, Spawn, etc aren't exactly ideologically unique units but expressions of the nature of Chaos amongst the material universe that don't even have approximate equivalents amongst loyalist forces.

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 Manchu wrote:
And yet, even so, I still have no real problem with there being functionally seven SM codices. TBH, I think 40k is a game about Space Marines and everyone else is just who they fight against or beside. I'm not saying it always has been that or always will be that or that it's best. But I don't see it as a bad thing, either.


I wouldn't mind there being 7 SM codecies IF they were all written by the same part of the team, balanced with each other and consistent with each other. Baseline Codex SM should set the bar for all the extras. If your new unit in the specialized chapter codex is superior to the comparable unit in the baseline book then it should cost more, not less, and vice versa. Also all weapons, armor and gear should cost the same across the books too. Finally if the force can easily be achieved using smart army selection out of the baseline book then it doesn't need its own codex.

It just bugs me that the different marine books are all over the place in power level, compatibility and balance with each other when they really should be the absolute easiest codex books to balance out and be consistent with.

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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well that depends. Dark Eldar and Eldar are Eldar, they have the same statline in most things, and are quite related.

However as a Major Difference is that they share no major wargear between them. The Average Eldar uses Shuriken weaponry, while as a whole Dark Eldar uses Poison based weaponry and the only real weapon shared between them is the Dark Lance/Lance being at the same stats. Eldar use an entirely different aspect base for their units, while dark eldar get mutants and mutations based around pain. The differences between the two are Major

The difference between Black Templar and C:SM are ideological based, and at best there's a few different things between them, you'll still be using the standard Imperium Armory with some partial differences when it comes to units. This is why I consider it Minor


Templars don't fit the model of the Codex Astartes in any way;
- Crusader Squads mixing not just Initiates & Neophytes, but also able to mix and/or focus on Bolters or pistol/ccw.
- 20 man squads through the above mixing.
- No Sergeants outside of Command squads.
- No Librarians or Devastators or Whirlwinds. (and should not have access to the new Thunderfire Cannon either because artillery is for girls)
- Units themselves can take power toys/fists
- Assault Squads have access to unit-wide Storm shields/Combat shields

That's on top of rules like Rightous Zeal and their Vows through the typically mandetory Emp's Champ, AND the rest of their unique wargear like Cenobyte Servitors & the Holy Orbs...

Templars in the end play nothing like a Codex-standard marine army and simply rolling them into a structure they haven't been apart of for well over 10 years is doing a huge disservice to every single Templar player...
That would be like all of a sudden removing Cult Troops as they exist from CSM's and instead turning them into "buy a CSM unit USR's 'x+y' and paint them in said colour scheme."

 
   
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Experiment 626 wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well that depends. Dark Eldar and Eldar are Eldar, they have the same statline in most things, and are quite related.

However as a Major Difference is that they share no major wargear between them. The Average Eldar uses Shuriken weaponry, while as a whole Dark Eldar uses Poison based weaponry and the only real weapon shared between them is the Dark Lance/Lance being at the same stats. Eldar use an entirely different aspect base for their units, while dark eldar get mutants and mutations based around pain. The differences between the two are Major

The difference between Black Templar and C:SM are ideological based, and at best there's a few different things between them, you'll still be using the standard Imperium Armory with some partial differences when it comes to units. This is why I consider it Minor


Templars don't fit the model of the Codex Astartes in any way;
- Crusader Squads mixing not just Initiates & Neophytes, but also able to mix and/or focus on Bolters or pistol/ccw.
- 20 man squads through the above mixing.
- No Sergeants outside of Command squads.
- No Librarians or Devastators or Whirlwinds. (and should not have access to the new Thunderfire Cannon either because artillery is for girls)
- Units themselves can take power toys/fists
- Assault Squads have access to unit-wide Storm shields/Combat shields

That's on top of rules like Rightous Zeal and their Vows through the typically mandetory Emp's Champ, AND the rest of their unique wargear like Cenobyte Servitors & the Holy Orbs...
Some of this boils down to edition/design studio paradigm differences since 2005. Regardeless, you could fit pretty much all of this in a two-page compilation add-on to C:SM and keep everything intact. As such, why is a distinct book really necessary when a two-page add on will do?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/01 21:29:53


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 Vaktathi wrote:
Some of this boils down to edition/design studio paradigm differences since 2005. Regardeless, you could fit pretty much all of this in a two-page compilation add-on to C:SM and keep everything intact. As such, why is a distinct book really necessary when a two-page add on will do?


I remember when BT were exactly such a two page addon along with Salamanders.

   
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Experiment 626 wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well that depends. Dark Eldar and Eldar are Eldar, they have the same statline in most things, and are quite related.

However as a Major Difference is that they share no major wargear between them. The Average Eldar uses Shuriken weaponry, while as a whole Dark Eldar uses Poison based weaponry and the only real weapon shared between them is the Dark Lance/Lance being at the same stats. Eldar use an entirely different aspect base for their units, while dark eldar get mutants and mutations based around pain. The differences between the two are Major

The difference between Black Templar and C:SM are ideological based, and at best there's a few different things between them, you'll still be using the standard Imperium Armory with some partial differences when it comes to units. This is why I consider it Minor


Templars don't fit the model of the Codex Astartes in any way;
- Crusader Squads mixing not just Initiates & Neophytes, but also able to mix and/or focus on Bolters or pistol/ccw.
- 20 man squads through the above mixing.
- No Sergeants outside of Command squads.
- No Librarians or Devastators or Whirlwinds. (and should not have access to the new Thunderfire Cannon either because artillery is for girls)
- Units themselves can take power toys/fists
- Assault Squads have access to unit-wide Storm shields/Combat shields

That's on top of rules like Rightous Zeal and their Vows through the typically mandetory Emp's Champ, AND the rest of their unique wargear like Cenobyte Servitors & the Holy Orbs...

Templars in the end play nothing like a Codex-standard marine army and simply rolling them into a structure they haven't been apart of for well over 10 years is doing a huge disservice to every single Templar player...
That would be like all of a sudden removing Cult Troops as they exist from CSM's and instead turning them into "buy a CSM unit USR's 'x+y' and paint them in said colour scheme."


Those are two to four page renovations at best, like they were back when they were introduced. Still Minor

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/01 22:20:30


 
   
 
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