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I realize I'm a bit late to the party, but I just started assembling my Dark Vengeance DA Terminator models.

Looking through my stuff I realize I have a set of Dark Vengeance DAs, a spare Black Reach Terminator from the White Dwarf giveaway, a box of Terminators from back when they were the hot new release, and a bunch of Black Reach terminators from five box sets worth of Black Reach, although some are ear-marked for other armies. I was hoping to make a Deathwing army.

I realized I could swap the torso from the DV Terminator with the WD Black Reach Terminator, to add an extra DA/DW Terminator to the squad, and I could probably do the same with the FW upgrade kit, adding extra bits, and maybe make a command squad for Belial.

All I would need to do is order an extra set of DV Terminators for the second assault cannon, a FW Terminator up[grade set, and maybe a DW Command Squad.

I set to work assembling the DA Terminators from the Dark Vengeance box set. While I knew the Dearhwing Terminators had unique poses, I didn't know how bad the posing was. While the parts from the Black Reach and regular Terminators were freely interchangeable, almost none of the Dark Vengeance parts are interchangeable. They're only designed to mate with each other. You can only swap a few of the parts - the assault cannon arm, The sergeant head/front torso, the storm bolter on the two SB/PF models. very few of the parts are backwards-compatible with the parts from the Black Reach Terminators or regular Terminators box set, and if you do swap the pieces, you'd have massive gaps to fill with putty.

In some cases the added detail is better. The added DA iconography is very nice, and so some of the lack of modularity can be forgiven. I understand the braided ropes that act like a sash and hang down on the chainfist model had to be made as a single torso and leg piece. But a lot of times, it's done purely for posing reason - did the Terminators from Dark Vengeance really *need* to be looking in all directions, swinging their weapons wildly?

I was hoping just to pick up a spare DV DW set, but there's so little here that's usable, it's not worth the effort. The assault cannon can be swapped for a SB, the sergeant's torso can be swapped, but it's a challenge, the SB/PF models can be swapped - but for hat? An assault cannon? The chainfist model can be torso swapped, but his arms are molded on. The assault cannon model has an entire section of his side missing to accommodate his pose, realistically, only his assault cannon arm is swappable.

I'm quite disappointed by these models. I was hoping they were interchangeable with every other Terminator set made, as well as the DW Command sprue.

A real disappointment.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

They're supposed to be starter models, not a parts supplement to the core range. If you want customisable terminators, there's a different kit for that.

I'm on my second set of Dark Vengeance terminators, and I'm less and less enthused with them. There are so many cuts in the plastic, that the models are almost deformed from certain angles. The lack of modularity you're talking about is spot on as well. I had enough sergeants and to convert the DV sergeant I literally had to take a razor saw to him to take the headdress and power sword off and then add a power fist.

They really should have cut them into the normal amount of parts. It'd make for much better modeling choices.

Again, there were designed to be great looking models for a starter kit. Yes, they are not too friendly to the amateur converter, but to a beginner, they look awesome when painted.

Find some Black Reach terminators and a box of Deathwing, you'll get quite a few models from that.

i also think it's a step backwards. it reminds me of 15 years ago when alot of plastic models were all a single piece in the same static pose.

i would only want one set of them if i were to start dark angels. the same guys over and over gain gets on my nerves.

kb305 wrote:
i also think it's a step backwards. it reminds me of 15 years ago when alot of plastic models were all a single piece in the same static pose.

It's actually a big step forwards.

The 3rd edition starter set included the regular multi-part marines. Beginners hated it, as you were looking at quite a few hours work before you could even try out this shiny new game you had just bought.

4th edition and 5th edition included clip-together models designed for the beginner... it was a return to the 2nd ed style of a starter set being, you know, a starter set, but with better models than 2nd had.

The current starter set is still clip-togethers, but it's a big ramp up in quality. Sure, they're not a great fit with the multi-part range... But they're not supposed to be. They're supposed to be good looking models that are still easy for a beginner to pick up and use.

i would only want one set of them if i were to start dark angels. the same guys over and over gain gets on my nerves.

Unless you're in the habit of buying multiple starter sets, why would you have more than one set of them? Again, if you want customisable, buy the regular minis instead of the starter set.

I suspect the design of the DV terminators was intentional. They learned from their "mistake" when they made the AoBR terminators easy to customize (I bought one box of assault termines, added in one set of AoBr termies, and got a full 10-man assault terminator squad out of it).

They are fantastic models in great poses, to my mind. There are poses you couldn't easily achieve by converting the standard kit, and have a lot of life in them. I prefer them to my regular Termies!

 insaniak wrote:

kb305 wrote:
i also think it's a step backwards. it reminds me of 15 years ago when alot of plastic models were all a single piece in the same static pose.

It's actually a big step forwards.

The 3rd edition starter set included the regular multi-part marines. Beginners hated it, as you were looking at quite a few hours work before you could even try out this shiny new game you had just bought.

4th edition and 5th edition included clip-together models designed for the beginner... it was a return to the 2nd ed style of a starter set being, you know, a starter set, but with better models than 2nd had.

The current starter set is still clip-togethers, but it's a big ramp up in quality. Sure, they're not a great fit with the multi-part range... But they're not supposed to be. They're supposed to be good looking models that are still easy for a beginner to pick up and use.

i would only want one set of them if i were to start dark angels. the same guys over and over gain gets on my nerves.

Unless you're in the habit of buying multiple starter sets, why would you have more than one set of them? Again, if you want customisable, buy the regular minis instead of the starter set.

for just assembly you're right. on the other hand those DV models put the pain in painting. The beginners will have plenty to hate once they pick up a brush.

personally i would much prefer generic vanilla marines then i could easily add chapter specific stuff to them if i wanted to. i also dont consider more stuff plastered onto my models to equal higher quality either but maybe that's just me.

oh, i do all my model shopping on ebay. could easily buy 100 of just the terminators if i wanted to. i would personally never buy the whole box, id much rather cherry pick the stuff that i want out of it.

 insaniak wrote:
They're supposed to be starter models, not a parts supplement to the core range. If you want customisable terminators, there's a different kit for that.

Would it have been so difficult for them to make them snap-fit like Black Reach? Then you would have had even more modelling options for your Dark Angels.

 CIsaac wrote:
I'm on my second set of Dark Vengeance terminators, and I'm less and less enthused with them. There are so many cuts in the plastic, that the models are almost deformed from certain angles. The lack of modularity you're talking about is spot on as well. I had enough sergeants and to convert the DV sergeant I literally had to take a razor saw to him to take the headdress and power sword off and then add a power fist.

They really should have cut them into the normal amount of parts. It'd make for much better modeling choices.

This. There's an error on the back of the leg of one model, and the shoulder of another "clips into" the torso, like a rendering error. The models couldn't actually do some of these poses. But that okay IMO, Terminator armor is supposed to look big and bulky, and not very dextrous.

 insaniak wrote:
The current starter set is still clip-togethers, but it's a big ramp up in quality. Sure, they're not a great fit with the multi-part range... But they're not supposed to be. They're supposed to be good looking models that are still easy for a beginner to pick up and use.

How do you know what's "supposed" to be? They could easily have made them snap-fit. Black Reach Terminators were easy enough to put together.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I suspect the design of the DV terminators was intentional. They learned from their "mistake" when they made the AoBR terminators easy to customize (I bought one box of assault termines, added in one set of AoBr termies, and got a full 10-man assault terminator squad out of it).

I suspect this is the case as well.

They want you to buy the $60 Deathwing set, not use the Dark Vengeance models for bits. Which is a shame, as it would have meant more bits for you to convert your models.

The decision to make them with such strange connection points is just corporate greed.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

On the contrary, I believe the Deathwing Terminators from Dark Vengeance are incredibly well designed.
Theyre supposed to be snap fit and mono pose. Considering that wouldve been in the design brief...to get what you seem to want (standard terminator or death wing box) would be really poor design. The level of detail is far beyond that of the AoBR box, the strange connection points are not corporate greed as has been said, rather just a way to ensure you dont put the wrong parts on the wrong guy... the same way that inside a PC the wrong parts wont fit its to make it idiot proof, which as it is the starter set, is incredible design.

HairySticks wrote:
On the contrary, I believe the Deathwing Terminators from Dark Vengeance are incredibly well designed.
Theyre supposed to be snap fit and mono pose. Considering that wouldve been in the design brief...to get what you seem to want (standard terminator or death wing box) would be really poor design. The level of detail is far beyond that of the AoBR box, the strange connection points are not corporate greed as has been said, rather just a way to ensure you dont put the wrong parts on the wrong guy... the same way that inside a PC the wrong parts wont fit its to make it idiot proof, which as it is the starter set, is incredible design.

It's not a question of making them idiot-proof, it's a question of making them compatible with every other frame out there. Which would have added even more value to the box set. The odds of someone attacking the wrong arm to the wrong guy is negligible, there are pictures in the book. They did it just for the posing, and to make the mdoels hard to cut apart.

Looking through GW's online store, I can only find the Deathwing Command Squad, not a regular Deathwing box. So I'm even more pissed. I guess I'll be buying from bits sites to get my fix of Deathwing bits.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Did you even click on the Deathwing command squad? If you did you might have come across this little gem.



The command squad lets you build 3 different kits. Among them Deathwing Terminator squads.


As for the DV terminators not being compaitble with other kits or being hard to cut apart, you're just not trying hard enough then. Look at what this guy did. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/473794.page Sure it might no be exactly what you were talking about but it gives a good example of what can be done with little effort.
I also think you are missing the point of the starter kit being just that. A starter kit. It's the kit they use to hook in all the kids and new people. The easier it is to go together the better it is. The (near) monopose Termies leave little room for error thus ensuring the newbies have a pleasent time putting together their new toys.

chris_valera wrote:Would it have been so difficult for them to make them snap-fit like Black Reach? Then you would have had even more modelling options for your Dark Angels.

They are snap-fit.

chris_valera wrote:The models couldn't actually do some of these poses. But that okay IMO, Terminator armor is supposed to look big and bulky, and not very dextrous.

Very few Space Marine models make sense anatomically.

chris_valera wrote:How do you know what's "supposed" to be? They could easily have made them snap-fit. Black Reach Terminators were easy enough to put together.

Again, they are snap-fit.

chris_valera wrote:It's not a question of making them idiot-proof, it's a question of making them compatible with every other frame out there. Which would have added even more value to the box set. The odds of someone attacking the wrong arm to the wrong guy is negligible, there are pictures in the book. They did it just for the posing, and to make the mdoels hard to cut apart.

Looking through GW's online store, I can only find the Deathwing Command Squad, not a regular Deathwing box. So I'm even more pissed. I guess I'll be buying from bits sites to get my fix of Deathwing bits.

I don't know if you realize that these models are aimed at beginners, not at veterans.
Did you actually look at the box-set, or just glance at the title of it and start bitching?

 nolzur wrote:

chris_valera wrote:Would it have been so difficult for them to make them snap-fit like Black Reach? Then you would have had even more modelling options for your Dark Angels.

They are snap-fit.

Wow, good job not reading what I wrote. I said, "snap-fit like Black Reach" ie easy to put together but still with interchangeable parts.

 nolzur wrote:

chris_valera wrote:The models couldn't actually do some of these poses. But that okay IMO, Terminator armor is supposed to look big and bulky, and not very dextrous.

Very few Space Marine models make sense anatomically.

Yes, but they can usually be assembled without such obvious rendering errors, ie shoulders "clipping into" the top of the torso.

Face it, this is a poor quality set of figures.

And finding out there's a Deathwing box makes me even more mad, as they could have easily made the arms, torsos, etc with the standard connectors snap-fit like Black Reach, and had the parts add even more variety to your DA. They didn't because they know people piece out the bits on ebay and that tons of the starter set models wind up there, They were afraid you wouldn't buy the nice shiny new $60 Deathwing box.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

I have to respectfully disagree.

The same things that make them not compatible with the BR guys are the best things about them - all the flowing detail and cool poses.

Also, I have already easily modified mine to work with BR guys, normal termies and the new dw box set guys.

again, the BR are great for interchangeabilty, but terrible in their blandness.

However, it appears that you are primarily interested in how easy it is to convert them, vs. others (including myself) are more happy with their appearance once we are done converting them.

each their own I guess....

 chris_valera wrote:
The decision to make them with such strange connection points is just corporate greed.

Uh, no, the decision to use such strange connection points was dictated by the desire to make dynamic models in as few parts as possible within the limits of plastic casting capabilities.

Do you also think space hulk terminators are badly designed?

They were meant for a starter set and they are great for that purpose. Converting etc, no, doesn't work.

 spears wrote:
Do you also think space hulk terminators are badly designed?

This. They are just the same as the Space Hulk ones. Dynamic poses. Easy assembly. NOT DESIGNED TO BE COMPATIBLE. They are read-made, clip and go models.

Seriously OP, compatibility is not the point of the models. It doesn't make them 'poor quality'. Indeed, there've been some pretty cool conversions... you just need a little ingenuity. I dread to think how you'd have coped in the old all-metal, only 3 poses world...

I don't think that they are badly designed. Quite the opposite. For starter box models they are highly detailed and dynamicly posed. Yes they aren't designed to be easily converted but that was never their intention.
And there are not that much areas on them where details blend into each other for easier molding like on the starter tactical marines. And once painted you'll won't see those areas.

The only "problem" i have with them is that as dynamic as those poses are they'll look like clones if your opponent has the same models.

And you can convert them, you just need more effort, time and skill to do it than with the regular boxed ones.
For example look what i did with mine. (shameless plug ... )

I picked up the DV set when I started back up because, hey, bikes and termies for cheap. But they are starter pieces. Back in the day, and I mean way back, even the initial box of 40k came with really cheap space marines that were basically bodies and guns in one position, and then Orcs in much the same. It was meant to be cheap, basic, starter models. But that's all they are. They're not supposed to be super poseable.

That said, for the cost (technically about what? $40-45us) you're still getting a squad of termies, three bikes, a tac squad, librarian and a HQ captain / master etc. Not a bad shake for that much. Plus a 6th ed rulebook if you don't already have one, dice. Overall it's a decent value for beginners or people coming back to the hobby after a long downtime. Anything beyond basic though you're looking for the the box kits.

On the topic of those though, I did wind up getting 10 termies out of the DW command box simply because I had extra legs and bits laying about, and I still have bits left over from the kit so also a decent value at $60us.


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 JohnnyHell wrote:

 spears wrote:
Do you also think space hulk terminators are badly designed?

This. They are just the same as the Space Hulk ones. Dynamic poses. Easy assembly. NOT DESIGNED TO BE COMPATIBLE. They are read-made, clip and go models.

Seriously OP, compatibility is not the point of the models. It doesn't make them 'poor quality'. Indeed, there've been some pretty cool conversions... you just need a little ingenuity. I dread to think how you'd have coped in the old all-metal, only 3 poses world...

That bit about all-metal made me have horrible flashbacks of the days when I had more tools than models just to get them passable

While I didn't do quite as much as doomhammer there, I was able to use the leftovers from my Command Squad box no problem to convert them up.