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In the BRB, it states that skirmishing units are positioned roughly 1/2" apart, but they must still face the same direction and have two flanks, a front, and a rear. Then, in the FAQ, it states that, when moving skirmishers, you should measure from each model individually.

So my question is: is the first picture in the BRB on page 77 a REQUIREMENT? Are skirmishing units FORCED to "form" this way? And can they move through narrow gaps? And how are units like Skinks with Salamanders supposed to be positioned, and how do they form up when charged?

If you keep the unit in the same configuration then it can move as a block

if you want to move through a narrow gap, then you will be reforming. So will need to move individually, to keep within double M.

As for salamanders the lizardman FAQ has changed their unit rules.

I don't really know what you mean.

The rules make skirmishers form as a regular unit, all be it about 1/2" apart.
So if you just want to move in the same formation, you can get away with measuring the corner models, keeping the block shape.
if you want to move through a narrowing, then skirmishers can reform for free, as long as they are not charging. Meaning you will need to measure what each model is doing, during the move. Remember the unit reforms around its centre.

So a unit of skirmishers can't form up in a diamond shape? Or triangle? Or rhombus?

Nope. Must be a standard legal formation. The only difference between a skirmish formation and a R&F formation is the open space between the bases of a skirmish formation.

But where is that spelled out?

In the rules about formations - skirmisher tells you the extra rules for skirmishers, it doesn't get rid of anything else.

It's pretty bad written in the BRB, especially for people who played in 7th as it never tells you outright "Skirmishers MUST be fieled in this formatin:".

RAW, though, you start with the general rule on how every unit must look like. Then, the Skirmishers special rule kicks and saying that you place them with a bit of free space in between the bases. You thus have to field them just as can be seen in the picture.

It's another reason why Skirmishers are terrible in 8th. Most of them. Ask my Squighoppaz, currently fielded as Squig herders.

Ok, so the rules for skirmishers are essentially the same as for every other unit (because it doesn't say otherwise) except for the distance between them.

And I don't have the Lizardmen FAQ available, but does that detail how Salamanders and Razordons work?

What you need to know is simple. Skirmishers can reform as many times and they want in a movement phase meaning that if you wanted to move through a smaller gap you could just so long as each model could make the move to the new location and in some valid formation.

BLADERIKER wrote:
What you need to know is simple. Skirmishers can reform as many times and they want in a movement phase meaning that if you wanted to move through a smaller gap you could just so long as each model could make the move to the new location and in some valid formation.

Also remember that when you thread a gap, the unit has to reform around it's center to form the needle.
A unit that's 5 wide and 2 deep shifts 1 wide and 10 deep, reforming around it's center. A model has to move to that rear spot, which is almost 4" behind where it started. Going back to 5 wide uses up another ~2" to go wideways.
A move 6 skirmishing unit could march 12"; but if they try and thread a gap, they are pretty limited in total range (8" if they stay in a needle, only 6" of forward if they want to return to the block).

This is played wrong pretty often.
The free reform rule stats that you can reform as often as you want, as long no model ends up moving more than movement x2.
That's different than reform as often as you want as long as all models end within movement x2.

If reforming was done where reforming was ignored as long as you ended within Move x2, then hexwraiths become really stupid.
Block of 10 reforms into a line 20" long, and repeatedly reforms to put each model at the front of that line, then reforms back and can still move 8" or march 16" after doing the 10 S5 no save flaming hits.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Also remember that when you thread a gap, the unit has to reform around it's center to form the needle.

This, 1000 times, post of the week etc. This is precisely why Skirmishers are so bad most of the time. Their USR brings more disadvantages than advantages.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
The free reform rule stats that you can reform as often as you want, as long no model ends up moving more than movement x2.
That's different than reform as often as you want as long as all models end within movement x2.

Ok, so, let me make sure I understand.

A skirmishing unit that reforms must measure the distance moved by each model in the unit while reforming. This distance is counted against the total "forward" distance that the unit wants to move. So, if a unit that's 5x4 reforms (before moving forward) into 2x10 to fit through a narrow gap, some models must move "back." If one of these models moves "back" a distance of, say, 4 inches, and the total distance that these models can move (double their movement rate) is 16 inches, then the entire unit will only be able to mvoe "forward" a distance of 12 inches.

If this unit DOES move forward the full 12 inches, they will be unable to RE-reform back into their original 5x4 once through the gap, because the models in the "back" have run out of movement allowance, even if the models in the front or the middle have only moved a total of 12 inches or so.

Is that right?

That is correct, they will also only have LoS to the front.

I really need to start calling people with skirmishers on the proper usage of the unit.

Alright, another question. A unit is 5x4 and facing north. Can each model in the unit simply turn west, and now they're a unit that's 4x5 and facing west? And if they CAN do this, does that "turning" take up any movement?

Turning on a unit's center is a reform.

The only time a unit can change its facing without reforming is when it wheels.

The movement required for a 90 degree reform is on page 14. You measure how far the model that moved the farthest moved from where it was before the reform to where it is after the reform. That is how much movement is used up.

as far as "shrinking" goes when charging and the charge distance...

When using squig hoppers, do you "shrink" per normal skirmisher USR or do you just "bounce" into them if you reach them, rank up, and start combat? (because of random movement)


Thank you.

With the Squighoppers, you shrink if the movement rolled is high enough to hit the enemy.

So you roll their random movement, measure that out, and if you find it will cause a charge you shrink and enter combat.

 Tangent wrote:
Alright, another question. A unit is 5x4 and facing north. Can each model in the unit simply turn west, and now they're a unit that's 4x5 and facing west? And if they CAN do this, does that "turning" take up any movement?

That is a legal reform, and takes no movement since Skirmishers get to reform at will.

At least, that's the way we play it.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Tangent wrote:
Alright, another question. A unit is 5x4 and facing north. Can each model in the unit simply turn west, and now they're a unit that's 4x5 and facing west? And if they CAN do this, does that "turning" take up any movement?

That is a legal reform, and takes no movement since Skirmishers get to reform at will.

At least, that's the way we play it.

I, too, thought that skirmishers can reform at will, which means this should take no movement... not correct?

skyfi wrote:as far as "shrinking" goes when charging and the charge distance...

When using squig hoppers, do you "shrink" per normal skirmisher USR or do you just "bounce" into them if you reach them, rank up, and start combat? (because of random movement)


Thank you.

The 'shrinking' happens just before rolling the dice - this is however after measuring the distance for charges. I see this as making it easier to see who can fight in the combat phase, it should not be seen as 'free movement'. If the skirmisher unit was ten models wide and is flank charged, you could not 'shrink' them out of charge range!

Tangent wrote:I, too, thought that skirmishers can reform at will, which means this should take no movement... not correct?

Reform at will means they can attemp to reform using the normal reform rules, but with the limit restriction lifted.
Note if you have a musician you can test for a free reform before moving (not marching) - obviously at risk of not moving again, and other restrictions.

Personally I field small units of skirmishers of 10 or less, and i use them to annoy and redirect charges. Their shooting on the march is also helpful

 Tangent wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Tangent wrote:
Alright, another question. A unit is 5x4 and facing north. Can each model in the unit simply turn west, and now they're a unit that's 4x5 and facing west? And if they CAN do this, does that "turning" take up any movement?

That is a legal reform, and takes no movement since Skirmishers get to reform at will.

At least, that's the way we play it.

I, too, thought that skirmishers can reform at will, which means this should take no movement... not correct?

It means you can reform as many times as you want. Normally units can only reform once a turn. But skirmishers still pay the movement to do it.

The only thing good about the new skirmish rules is that you can use them as redirectors

You could in 7th as well. Redirection isn't as easy as it was then due to being able to redirect charges if the target flees.

MeanGreen wrote:

skyfi wrote:as far as "shrinking" goes when charging and the charge distance...

When using squig hoppers, do you "shrink" per normal skirmisher USR or do you just "bounce" into them if you reach them, rank up, and start combat? (because of random movement)


Thank you.

The 'shrinking' happens just before rolling the dice - this is however after measuring the distance for charges. I see this as making it easier to see who can fight in the combat phase, it should not be seen as 'free movement'. If the skirmisher unit was ten models wide and is flank charged, you could not 'shrink' them out of charge range!

Tangent wrote:I, too, thought that skirmishers can reform at will, which means this should take no movement... not correct?

Reform at will means they can attemp to reform using the normal reform rules, but with the limit restriction lifted.
Note if you have a musician you can test for a free reform before moving (not marching) - obviously at risk of not moving again, and other restrictions.

Personally I field small units of skirmishers of 10 or less, and i use them to annoy and redirect charges. Their shooting on the march is also helpful

Not trying to be a rules lawyer, just want to make sure I understand correctly or where the error in my logic is.

My understanding was that since random movement isn't a "charge" there wouldn't be any shrinking if the squig hoppers bounced into an enemy. The target unit can't declare a charge reaction, so I don't see why we would use the other "charging" rules for a random movement. I view it like a pump wagon or mangler squig. With the mangler squig you'd "bounce" through, with the pump wagon you'd stop and do impact hits/engage in combat... it seems to me that the squig hoppers should be treated like the pump wagon, honestly. The impact hits when they roll 3 6's for movement makes it seem more "right" to me for whatever reason also. Target unit never gets to elect a charge reaction because a "charge" is never declared? So why "shrink" like skirmishers do when you declare a charge? Seems like you're doing something the rules aren't telling you to? As the hoppers aren't declaring a charge, what prompts them to if ever, shrink when they are doing the "charging"?

I understand and agree they would shrink if they were being charged though. I always thought it worked like this..

1 Declare charge,
2 skirmishers immediately shrink around center,
3 measure charge distance
4 declare charge reaction
5 oll charge range
6 move models

Anybody clear this up for me? I just had been playing this figuring hoppers are immune to #2 because #1 never happens when THEY are the chargers as they use random movement? That hoppers would only shrink if they were receiving a charge?

it feels like I probably over looked a rule regarding random movement that all you are privy to. I know if you "make it" to they unit it counts as charging, but seeing as they weren't able to make a reaction.... my logic said, well the hoppers don't shrink then!

Grey Templar wrote:
It means you can reform as many times as you want. Normally units can only reform once a turn. But skirmishers still pay the movement to do it.

Ok, now I'm really confused.

A "normal" reform takes your entire movement allowance. A "swift" reform (using a musician) allows you to reform and then make a "normal" move (not a march move). You can only make this reform maneuver, either normal or swift, once per turn.

Skirmishers can make these maneuvers as many times per turn as they want, but each time they do it, they must pay these movement costs.

So, how does this interact?

skyfi wrote:I understand and agree they would shrink if they were being charged though. I always thought it worked like this..

1 Declare charge,
2 skirmishers immediately shrink around center,
3 measure charge distance
4 declare charge reaction
5 oll charge range
6 move models

I think your operations are just out of order. As far as I know, it works like this:

1) Measure charge distance. You do this first because, from what I understand, you're not allowed to declare a charge that you have no chance of making. For instance, if an enemy unit is fleeing and you declare a charge against it, it must automatically flee again. You can "chase" units off the board in this way. If you could declare charges from outside your max charge distance, then every unit you have could charge and that unit would be guaranteed to be off the board.

2) Declare charge.
3) Declare charge reaction.
4) Resolve charge reaction.
5) Skirmishers shrink around center.
6) Roll charge distance.
7) Move charging models.

 Tangent wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
It means you can reform as many times as you want. Normally units can only reform once a turn. But skirmishers still pay the movement to do it.

Ok, now I'm really confused.

A "normal" reform takes your entire movement allowance. A "swift" reform (using a musician) allows you to reform and then make a "normal" move (not a march move). You can only make this reform maneuver, either normal or swift, once per turn.

Skirmishers can make these maneuvers as many times per turn as they want, but each time they do it, they must pay these movement costs.

So, how does this interact?

skyfi wrote:I understand and agree they would shrink if they were being charged though. I always thought it worked like this..

1 Declare charge,
2 skirmishers immediately shrink around center,
3 measure charge distance
4 declare charge reaction
5 oll charge range
6 move models

I think your operations are just out of order. As far as I know, it works like this:

1) Measure charge distance. You do this first because, from what I understand, you're not allowed to declare a charge that you have no chance of making. For instance, if an enemy unit is fleeing and you declare a charge against it, it must automatically flee again. You can "chase" units off the board in this way. If you could declare charges from outside your max charge distance, then every unit you have could charge and that unit would be guaranteed to be off the board.

2) Declare charge.
3) Declare charge reaction.
4) Resolve charge reaction.
5) Skirmishers shrink around center.
6) Roll charge distance.
7) Move charging models.

His question is about random movement in combination with skirmishers and that question is really interesting to me too.
For other skirmisher it's pretty clear. The reform stuff is pretty easy. You can reform as often as you want as long as you have "movement" left.

Right, but doesn't reforming to face another direction (in essence pivoting each model in the skirmishing unit to face somewhere else) "cost" movement? Or does it not?

I use a pack of 10 ungor raiders with musisian to hide my 3 shadow stone shamans. It give the enemy -1 to hit and my shamans get LoS and distributed as per shooting that way as well. While they are not as awesome as the free moving 7th skirmishers they are still not completely horrible.