Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been seeing more and more advocacy for this model, lately, and I'm a bit baffled. Sure, the model is essentially a heavy discounted and exceedingly fragile basilisk, but I just can't think of many situations where I've wanted to hit anything in a 6-12 inch disk around my selected target, but never the target itself.

Am I making any sense, or is there some sort of redeeming quality to this guy I'm not getting?

It looks a bit mad on paper, but if you've ever faced one you'll know how devastating it can be. Most units usually get spread close to their maximum 2" coherency precisely to avoid blasts so if you put it in the middle of a unit and get an average scatter roll, you'll still catch a few members. As cheap as he is being IG, there's usually no reason not to take him.

That said, there are certain lists he'll do no good against, basically those with small model counts like Paladins or Deathwing since unlucky scatter often means you'll hit nothing at all. Against Nids, Orks or other IG he'll have a field day.

My success with the MoO is usually a bit patchy, but in my last game I rolled 1-1 for my scatter, the scatter die was not a hit, so it was an extra d6. That rolled a 1 as well - minus his BS, I actually got the MoO to hit exactly where I was aiming.

First and last time that'll happen I expect!

Scatter happens to everyone, though. Even my Havoc ML have gone WAY off course, sometimes to hilarious effect. Randomness happens in 40K, and I find it weird that some people can't stand it. I've actually had missiles bounce off IG fodder and bounce around a corner into a veteran squad that was WAY out of LOS. But I'm a chaos player, so maybe my opinion on random is different. That being said, my IG buddy has had some really good luck with MoO and it can really hurt.

Munga wrote:
Scatter happens to everyone, though.

But the MoO has worse scatter than most units. A "hit" scatters 2D6, and a miss scatters 3D6.

OP, you're not missing anything. The only reason to ever use the MoO is if you have a static CCS and don't want to bother figuring out a more efficient way of spending those last 30 points.

A total waste of 30 pts.

Oh! I didn't know that about the misses. I am going to have to pay more attention to that. I think I might have gotten short changed

MoOs are fine.

They still use their BS to reduce scatter, and they're always within range of a bring it down order. Then you add the fact that they can still hit what they were aiming at even if it does scatter, thanks to large blast, and the fact that vehicles are big targets and you no longer have to have the hole over them... and you get something that's actually more accurate than most people initially suspect.

Plus, artillery only swings big when there's a lot of targets in one area anyways, something where the reduced accuracy of a MoO is less of an issue.

Some mathhammer probabilities against vehicles. Assumption that a 4" or less scatter still hits the hull. The results are not bad, but they are definitely not stellar either.

MoO........P(Glance)..............P(Pen)...................P(HP strip)............P(Explodes!)
AV10.......0.01148834..........0.402091907........0.346564929.......0.067015318
AV11.......0.01148834..........0.379115226........0.327417695.......0.063185871
AV12.......0.01148834..........0.344650206........0.298696845.......0.057441701
AV13.......0.01148834..........0.298696845........0.260402378.......0.049782807
AV14.......0.01148834..........0.241255144........0.212534294.......0.040209191

tl MoO.....P(Glance)..............P(Pen)...................P(HP strip)............P(Explodes!)
AV10.......0.014346136........0.502114769.......0.432775111........0.083685795
AV11.......0.014346136........0.473422497.......0.408864883........0.078903749
AV12.......0.014346136........0.430384088.......0.372999543........0.071730681
AV13.......0.014346136........0.372999543.......0.325179089........0.06216659
AV14.......0.014346136........0.301268861.......0.265403521........0.050211477

There's a whole lot worse you could spend 30pts on, and there's a whole lot better you could spend it on too.

I take him every friendly game I do, but I tend to leave him at home for tourneys.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
There's a whole lot worse you could spend 30pts on, and there's a whole lot better you could spend it on too.

I take him every friendly game I do, but I tend to leave him at home for tourneys.

This about sums it up.

 Ailaros wrote:
Then you add the fact that they can still hit what they were aiming at even if it does scatter, thanks to large blast, and the fact that vehicles are big targets and you no longer have to have the hole over them... and you get something that's actually more accurate than most people initially suspect.

How come it's ok for the MoO (cow), but the same logic doesn't apply when discussing a LRBT? I know the overall delivery method of the same blast template is different in the two examples I mentioned, but you always
trash the LRBT for almost the same reasons you site for taking the MoO?

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Then you add the fact that they can still hit what they were aiming at even if it does scatter, thanks to large blast, and the fact that vehicles are big targets and you no longer have to have the hole over them... and you get something that's actually more accurate than most people initially suspect.

How come it's ok for the MoO (cow), but the same logic doesn't apply when discussing a LRBT? I know the overall delivery method of the same blast template is different in the two examples I mentioned, but you always
trash the LRBT for almost the same reasons you site for taking the MoO?

Because Ailaros' math changes constantly depending on what he's arguing for at the time.

 Barksdale wrote:
Some mathhammer probabilities against vehicles. Assumption that a 4" or less scatter still hits the hull. The results are not bad, but they are definitely not stellar either.

(...many numbers go here...)

Why are you math-hammering what MoO does to vehicles? It's hardly his best use. That pie plate is fantastic against squads. If you aim it for a single vehicle, you're gonna miss.

 Super Ready wrote:
Why are you math-hammering what MoO does to vehicles? It's hardly his best use. That pie plate is fantastic against squads. If you aim it for a single vehicle, you're gonna miss.

Against infantry, its just not worth the trouble trying to determine how many models will be hit, taking into account the scatter direction and magnitude, the type of infantry, as well as assuming a given formation and spacing the infantry is in. If you'd like to do it, be my guest.

Anyway, claiming that you are going to miss a vehicle flat out is well, just flat out wrong. Sometimes you will miss entirely, other times you will not. This is going to apply to any target; vehicles and squads of infantry. Might as well have the numbers for one of them. If you are not interested, feel free to ignore my previous post.

I'll pass on trying to work the mathhammer out, thanks :p and ok, my previous statement was too absolute. The MoO *can* hit a vehicle straight off, it's just very unlikely.
It's also a bit of a waste to do given the type of weapon it is, unless you have no better options - kinda like levelling a lascannon at a squad when there's a transport zooming up next to them.

Super Ready wrote:Why are you math-hammering what MoO does to vehicles? It's hardly his best use.

Because it's S9 ordnance barrage, and you can use BiD against it. Vehicles are its best target, not its worst.

alarmingrick wrote:How come it's ok for the MoO (cow), but the same logic doesn't apply when discussing a LRBT?

Well, there are a lot of differences. A MoO is barrage, S9, doesn't take up a HS slot, has no real competition in its space, can take orders, bulks up a fragile CCS, and, most importantly, only costs 30 points.

Normally I'm not the biggest fan of this class of weapons, but what you get for the bargain basement price really isn't too shabby.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
There's a whole lot worse you could spend 30pts on, and there's a whole lot better you could spend it on too.

I take him every friendly game I do, but I tend to leave him at home for tourneys.

/thread

Honestly, this is my point of view. I would rather have a MoO than put some of the doctrines on my vets, but at the same time I would rather have 3 melta guns

I take one because they are amusing and fun to model

 Ailaros wrote:
Because it's S9 ordnance barrage, and you can use BiD against it. Vehicles are its best target, not its worst.

Points taken, but I'll raise two counterpoints.

1) as barrage it usually gets around cover saves. That's become pretty important in 6th what with ADL shenanigans and so on.
2) as an IG player, you really ought to be relying on other sources for anti-armour than the MoO. It's a nice bonus shot to have, mind.

Yes, but vehicles take advantage of cover just as much as infantry do. If anything, they rely on cover MORE than they used to, now that they have hull points on the one hand, and now that it's much easier for vehicles to get cover saves at all on the other.

And no, you don't rely on the MoO. If everything hinges on just a 30 point upgrade, then something is already going very wrong. The amount of firepower you get for its cost, though, isn't that terrible.

I used a MoO in the last tourney I was in to a surprising effect. And I recommend looking at him in that setting.

30 points that (if stationary) a can lend long range fire power to an army. There would be some games where he did nothing, even once taking out my own marbo... But there are some games (against a transport parking lot) whe he reliably pulled the same kind of damage that a bassie could have pulled. This rather averaged out his value. And across an entire days worth of games he more than made up for his cost.

There are two things I can count on him to do: 1) force the opponent to spread out in a ridiculous fashion. 2) barrage parking lots

Over all I've found that his damage potential alone disrupts my opponents game to more than make up for the 30points I spent


Second note... I haven't tried it, but if you buy a second MoO for a second ccs, do they each drop a plate?

Just FYI, long range and blast templates aren't exactly difficult to obtain in a guard army. The HS section is full of 'em, they're more accurate too.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Just FYI, long range and blast templates aren't exactly difficult to obtain in a guard army. The HS section is full of 'em, they're more accurate too.

While this is all painfully obvious, I should also point out the obvious fact that MoO doesn't compete for slots with any template providing unit in the guard codex. If you have 30 points to blow...

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
If you have 30 points to blow...

3 plasma pistols will give more reliable use IMO. Those pistols also don't increase the perceived threat of my fragile HQ unit, nor do they make a small unit sit still all game.

First off, you can't take 3 plasma pistols in a CCS. Secondly if you are toting reliability, plasma pistols will reliably kill their users, only have 12 inch range, meaning your probably going to get one turn of shooting in before you then get charged. The MoO can reliably shoot every turn and also won't trigger gets hot.

The plasma pistols won't increase the perceived threat of your CCS because there is no increase in actual threat. In fact I would be laughing when those guardsman cook themselves. (Nevermind you can only take 2). I am not a big fan of the MoO but I am even less of a fan of plasma pistols in a guard army. Why? Because my plasma gunners (of which I have 8) reliably kill 2-5 of themselves every game. I don't need to hand slay the warlord to my opponent on a silver platter.

I don't understand what the comparison is you are attempting to make here.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
The MoO can reliably shoot every turn and also won't trigger gets hot.

Only if you have a static CCS. If your CCS is in a Vendetta/Chimera and moving to engage targets effectively then the MoO is rarely getting to shoot.

The plasma pistols won't increase the perceived threat of your CCS because there is no increase in actual threat.

Nonsense. Dual pistols is effectively taking 5x plasma guns in a CCS. IOW, 25% more firepower.

I don't understand what the comparison is you are attempting to make here.

The point is that it's just one of many ways you can spend 30 points more effectively than on a MoO.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
First off, you can't take 3 plasma pistols in a CCS.

So? Why is that relevant?

Secondly if you are toting reliability, plasma pistols will reliably kill their users, only have 12 inch range, meaning your probably going to get one turn of shooting in before you then get charged. The MoO can reliably shoot every turn and also won't trigger gets hot.

Gets hot isn't scary. My vet sergeant makes his points back by firing it once. Why will I get charged? You're assuming a) the plasma pistol squad doesn't make their target run, b) the plasma pistol using squad doesn't wipe out their target, c) they're not in a chimera d) the charge will be successful and e) that I won't kill something in overwatch. 7 plasma shots is a great way to kill some one on overwatch (and yes, there's a chance I'll lose a plasma gun too, but really, who cares?)

my plasma gunners (of which I have 8) reliably kill 2-5 of themselves every game. I don't need to hand slay the warlord to my opponent on a silver platter.

And how many MEQ or TEQ to they kill in the process? How many HP do they strip? How many wounds do they take off MCs? The cost:benefit of plasma is vastly in favour of using it.
How is throwing a plasma pistol on my 3 vet sergeants handing STW? You seem to be either misinterpreting what I said, or deliberately being disingenuous. I'm sure it's the former.

I don't understand what the comparison is you are attempting to make here.

30pts spare is better spent on guns I can expect to hit once every game. Rather than a single blast that could hit once every two or three games.

I don't understand what the comparison is you are attempting to make here.

30pts spare is better spent on guns I can expect to hit once every game. Rather than a single blast that could hit once every two or three games.

 Flinty wrote:

Interesting. Do you run HBs or HFs on your chimeras, because the comparison is very similar?

It's dissimilar in that the choice is irrelevant in the context of points. It's also dissimilar in that a heavy bolter is trash in most contexts, and a heavy flamer has the occasion situational use. Plasma pistols get used, always at least once. The MoO also limits movement which is absolutely horrible. The heavy bolter doesn't limit movement because you never pay for the weapon, and you're still firing more shots if you move than if you take the HF.
I generally run a mix though with those chimerae that I don't expect to move a lot taking HBs and those that I do expect to move taking HFs.