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I looked for a previous thread about this, and if there is one that I just couldn't find please refer me to it.
Anyways, simple question, when was the Decree of Nikaea repealed? I know that Space Wolves, in their hypocrisy, never got rid of their psykers, nor did the 1k Sons. It seems like most everyone else did though. So when did they let their psykers be librarians again?
Thanks dakka
The Emperor Protects _______________________________________
Inquisitorial lesson #298: Why to Hate Choas Gods, cont'd-
With Chaos, Tzeench would probably turn your hands, feet and face into
scrotums, complete with appropriate nerve endings. Then Khorne would
force you and all your friends to fight to the death using your new
scrotal appendages. Once they get tired of that, you get tossed to
Slaanesh who <censored by order of the Inquisition>, until you finally
end up in Nurgle's clutches and he uses you as a loofah.
AFAIK a repeal was never mentioned. But with the outbreak of the Horus Heresy it became clear that they could not keep to the decree. Some HH novels describe former librarians using their powers to help. Afterwards its mostly acccepted that it had to be done to achieve victory. In one of the HH series Malcador even grants a former librarian permission to use his powers again. When the HH series reaches Terra it will probably become a lot clearer, since both sides will throw everything they got into this battle. Its likely that the loyalists will employ their librarians again as the Thousand Sons were present. Their formidable powers alone should need some counter larger than on Prospero (dont think the siege will be very forgiving on anything less than Astartes).
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
2000 pts Imperial Fists
6000 pts Disciples of Fate
3500 pts Peridia Prime
2500 pts Prophets of Fate
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I believe in Know No Fear, Guilliman has already decreed that the council had hamstrung the Ultramarines' abilities to combat the forces of Chaos during the war on Calth, and had made a note to have it repealed after the battle.
It's likely that, when he assumed the position of Lord Commander post-heresy, he abolished the laws against the use of psykers.
Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
That^
Plus it strictly only applied to the Space Marine Legions. Chapters arn't Legions.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Phiasco II wrote: I looked for a previous thread about this, and if there is one that I just couldn't find please refer me to it.
Here you go:
Manchu wrote: That is a great mystery yet to be unveiled. I suppose at the latest, the Edict was "softened" when Guilliman promulgated Codex Astartes since he obviously directs Chapters to train and deploy Librarians. Whether he had the Emperor's assent/approval is unknown. There are some who argue that the difference between the pre-Codex and Codex Librarians was so great that the Edict does not really contemplate Codex Librarians. This seems rather weak to me. The other piece of the puzzle is that the SW obviously still used psykers after the Edict, even at the burning of Propsero. My own interpretation is that the Edict was basically a judgment against what Magnus was doing even if the Emperor said he wasn't censuring anybody in particular. His explicit command, at least in A Thousand Sons was that no Legion would maintain a Librarius Department. According to the strict letter of the Edict, therefore, whether a Codex Chapter might do so was not actually decided since Codex Chapters did not then exist except in Guilliman's mind. Some people use this as evidence for Guilliman being disloyal but that seems weak to me, as well. This is also probably how Russ could get away with still deploying psykers since he didn't seem to maintain a "Librarius Department." We have no evidence that Russ was disloyal or that the Emperor knew/cared about SW psykers.
The Emperor wrote:Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
A Thousand Sons, p. 355, my emphasis
Again, the letter of the law is that no Legion can have a Libarius department and everyone who was in such a department may no longer use psychic powers.
So RAW, (1) whether a Chapter can have a Librarius depatment is not covered and (2) psykers who were not formerly part of such departments are not covered.
You think Guilliman would have overlooked this? The only way to violate this post-Codex is if Space Marines formerly part of the Legion Librarius department were reinstated to the Chapter Librarius department or otherwise used psychic powers. So all Guilliman needed to do was recruit new psykers for his Chapter Librarius department.
In this way, the Edict need never have been amended or violated to get us to the situation of M42 -- even regarding the founding of the Grey Knights by Malcador (unless one of his recruits was formerly a part of a Legion's Libarius department and used psychic powers while a Grey Knight). So we may already have the answer without need of further revelations. Of course, that doesn't mean there are no further revelations to come; it just means there are not necessarily contradictions (that I am aware of) that require further revelations to explain them away.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 15:33:16
Phiasco II wrote: I know that Space Wolves, in their hypocrisy, never got rid of their psykers...
They're not heathen sorcerers, they're shamans
At least that's what they say
Amongst other things - YES
RP are doing runecrafting and are recruiting (selecting) new members + they control the Wulfen.... and they are not librarians...psykers ofc they are, but filthy sorceres with deamons as their pets HELL NO....
They also fought side by side with Custodians and SoS, so what's your take on that?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 16:32:08
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
There must be a fundamental difference between a Psyker and a Shaman. After all, the big E is a whole lot of Shaman and his powers were never considered sourcerous!
Well there isn't (they both bend the warp) and there is (control)...thats the beauty
I'm gonna post this again
Spoiler:
What I especially admire,’ said the Thousand Sons Equerry, ‘is your hypocrisy. You hound us and harass us over our so-called sorcery, yet you do not shrink from using it, shaman.’
‘There is a vast gulf between what I employ for the good of the Rout and what you practise, warlock,’ Helwintr replied, ‘and the chief part of that gulf is control. Only the naive would think that mankind could survive in the cosmos without some measure of craft and cunning to protect him, but there is a limit. A limit. We must know what we can master and what we cannot, and we must never allow ourselves to step beyond that line. Tell me, how many steps have you taken? One? Three? A dozen? A thousand?’
Like @Omegus said - they are both right and wrong in the same way...
SW - "way of Feris" is hypocritical, but the fact is, their usage of warp is 100% different from a TS
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 16:42:35
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
So a shaman is simply more educated or schooled into knowing what powers can be controlled and what boundaries there are when using their powers. Psykers have no desire to hold back and therefore can't be trusted.
Well I don't know if I go that far....but there is a distinction in usage certainly....
But also warping is warping, so hypocrisy still stands even though I'm a wolf man....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Mellow wrote: Psykers have no desire to hold back and therefore can't be trusted.
Yeah, you're on the right track. A sanctioned psyker (including SM librarians) are defined by their self-imposed limitations. A sorcerer would transgress any boundary if he could and it suited his ends. Magnus and at least part of his legion clearly fell into the second category.
I think the new fluff makes better sense. The old fluff implies that the Legions were familiar with Chaos. In the HH series, that is definitely not the case. The Legions are initially ignorant of Chaos -- especially Magnus, who seemingly does not put two and two together regarding the flesh change. In Thousand Sons, the Emperor refuses to speak of sorcery in his decree -- which is the open crux of the matter in the old fluff.
It can't be like that in the HH series because sorcery is itself merely a suspicion. Magnus does not see his pursuits as any different, generally speaking, from the crucial role played by astropaths and navigators. Moreover, he thinks Russ's attitude is ignorant and superstitious (I'd like to hear him account for Mortarion's objections, however). The whole tension of the Heresy revolves on the point of naïve idealism. Even Horus originally justified his betrayal by claiming to save the Great Crusade from the Emperor.
The old fluff is best looked at as history written sometime long after the HH by someone without "all the facts."
RP are doing runecrafting and are recruiting (selecting) new members + they control the Wulfen.... and they are not librarians...psykers ofc they are, but filthy sorceres with deamons as their pets HELL NO....
They also fought side by side with Custodians and SoS, so what's your take on that?
Know who else were not "filthy sorcerers with daemons as their pets"?
Every librarian who was not a Thousand Son, as far as we can see.
The Librarian in the Garro series is just a psyker, as was Zahariel from the DA series (Well, before he became a daemonhost lol), as is that Librarian in Fear to Tread.
The Rune Priests just happen to think that only they have the right to employ psychic powers in the legion, because... I'm not actually sure why exactly. Regardless, they are certainly hypocrites, and in typical Space Wolf faction arrogant, condescending hypocrites at that.
Let's not have another thread descend into Thousand Sons vs. Space Wolves, eh?
I've always found it interesting that Corax was one of the advocates for Nikaea, despite being a psyker (moreso than many primarchs at least), himself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 18:45:53
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Manchu wrote: The Legions are initially ignorant of Chaos -- especially Magnus, who seemingly does not put two and two together regarding the flesh change.
This is patently false.
“The curse of assumed knowledge is a challenge all enlightened individuals face,” said Magnus, softening his tone. “We must remember that we
once walked in their shoes and were blind to the truths of the universe. Even I knew nothing of the Great Ocean until my father revealed its glory to
me.”
“No,” whispered Ahriman with sudden, instinctive clarity. “You already knew of it. When the Emperor showed you its wonders and dangers you
feigned not to know, but you had already peered into its depths [b]and seen them.]/b]”
Magnus, more than any Primarch, knew that something terrible, ancient, and powerful lurked in the Warp, and he hid this fact from everyone.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote: Let's not have another thread descend into Thousand Sons vs. Space Wolves, eh?
I've always found it interesting that Corax was one of the advocates for Nikaea, despite being a psyker (moreso than many primarchs at least), himself.
The thread is about Nikaea, and there was Space Wolf bashing in the OP. It was inevitable.
Corax doesn't actually seem to realize that he is a psyker. Because he's an idiot I guess?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 18:48:45
Just Dave wrote: Let's not have another thread descend into Thousand Sons vs. Space Wolves, eh?
If nothing else, the constant need for fans of each to pick at the other on this particular issue does a great job of obscuring what might have really been at stake at Nikaea. I don't think the Emperor was that worried Magnus would disobey him. I think he was more worried about the Primarchs finding out about Chaos.
Void__Dragon wrote: “No,” whispered Ahriman with sudden, instinctive clarity. “You already knew of it. When the Emperor showed you its wonders and dangers you feigned not to know, but you had already peered into its depths and seen them.”
Magnus, more than any Primarch, knew that something terrible, ancient, and powerful lurked in the Warp, and he hid this fact from everyone.
First, how does Ahriman know? "Sudden instinctive clarity" does not sound trustworthy in any of its many senses. Second, Magnus clearly knew there was some intelligence in the Warp; that is not the same thing as knowing about Chaos (i.e., you are making the same mistake that Magnus seemed to make on this score). Third, even taking your point that Magnus "knew," well, then he pretended not to know for the sake of his own vain desires.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 18:58:44
Ahriman knows because just a short while ago he was accidentally exposed to the totality of Magnus's knowledge, in a lapse of concentration on Magnus's part lol.
Also, he knew Chaos by name. The "Primordial Annihilator". Currently looking for this passage, but can't find atm.
In The First Heretic, Magnus is also clearly hiding something from a distraught Lorgar, and in his pity, does tell Lorgar that the only thing he'll find on his quest to the Warp will be suffering.
And Lorgar's entire beef with Magnus in Aurelian is that Magnus was aware of the truth of Chaos, but refused to act on it.
I wouldn't say they were vain desires that caused him to hide it. He seemed more than anything terrified of what would happen were the truth to get out of how he saved his legion, and of what consequences making that deal with Tzeentch would eventually have.
Though I may just be saying what you said in a way that makes my favorite Primarch look better.
Void__Dragon wrote: Though I may just be saying what you said in a way that makes my favorite Primarch look better.
As you well know, he's also my favorite. Although that's never been contingent on him being right about anything. And indeed, everything I know about Magnus (which I'll admit is far from complete because I haven't even read more than a couple of the recent HH books/short stories) points to him being wrong about basically everything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 19:12:59
It's funny, coincidental, whatever because I just read the passage of the Emperor's ruling last night as I'm going back through Thousand Sons (HH book)!
I didn't know about the previous history concerning Nikaea (I'm referring to the post that Alph made), but I like this bit of revision, if that's what we'll call it.
I think Manchu has part of it in that the Emperor didn't want the other Primarchs to know about what lurks in the Warp.
I think the other shoe is that he was worried they'd find out too soon, that is to say, before he completed his golden throne project. With the Throne completed and Magnus sitting upon it, Magnus could not only be the conduit for the navigators to travel by, but he could also have become someone that could watch out for warp storms. He could potential prevent rifts from occurring, releasing Daemons on the Emperor's people. He could protect mankind from knowing about Daemons completely and (seemingly) utterly. Having the Librarians running around would be a two-fold problem.
1. They could find out about the Daemons/Chaos/Primordian creator and tell the Primarchs that didn't know.
2. They could accidentally create rifts in the warp and serve as conduits (directly or indirectly) for Daemons to enter realspace and "muck about!"
He may have eventually relented on the ruling, but not until the Crusades were complete AND Magnus as safely on the golden throne.
Just a thought.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/02 19:34:04
Giving the Emperor the benefit of the doubt here but if he had managed to succeed in installing Magnus on the Golden Throne and opening the WebWay to humanity, one wonders what need there would be for librarians at all.
Many times it is pointed out in the series that the Decree of Nikaea hamstringed the Imperium's capacity to fight beings who do use the Immaterium.
Also, I probably should have read a little further, for that quote I posted.
“I did what I had to,” snapped Magnus, forestalling any further words. “That is all you need to know. Trust me, Ahzek, what was done was done for
the right reasons.”
Ahriman wanted to believe that, he needed to believe it, but there was no disguising the vanity and obsession that lay behind the secret bargain.
He sought to pierce the shrouds and veils of self-justification and perceive the dark secret that lay beyond, but Magnus plucked the stolen memory
from his mind.
Void__Dragon wrote: Though I may just be saying what you said in a way that makes my favorite Primarch look better.
As you well know, he's also my favorite. Although that's never been contingent on him being right about anything. And indeed, everything I know about Magnus (which I'll admit is far from complete because I haven't even read more than a couple of the recent HH books/short stories) points to him being wrong about basically everything.
I thought Corax was your favorite?
Is that list out of date?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 19:41:33
Manchu wrote: Giving the Emperor the benefit of the doubt here but if he had managed to succeed in installing Magnus on the Golden Throne and opening the WebWay to humanity, one wonders what need there would be for librarians at all.
Yeah, you would still need to kill daemons. But you can do that without psychic powers (i.e., BT -- Space Marines who are arguably still organized as a Legion and fanatically follow the Nikaea Edit) or with non-SM psykers in a support role.
You have me at a disadvantage, what list? I remember saying this about Corax:
Manchu wrote: Also, I think Corax was perhaps the most trustworthy Primarch.
Manchu wrote: Among all the Primarchs, only two or three seem to have any understanding of humility and compassion -- and one of them is Corax. How anyone would see him as an obvious traitor is beyond me.
Void__Dragon wrote: [
The Rune Priests just happen to think that only they have the right to employ psychic powers in the legion, because THEY HAVE MORE CONTROL and THEY WEREN'T A PART OF LIBRARIUS PROGRAM and THEY DIDN'T HAVE A MARK OF TZEENCH ON THEIR BACKS... .
FTFY
Also they attained their rank (which is essential in the SW), but I didn't see them throw lighning balls on Prospero...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 19:53:57
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Who came up with the idea of the Libararius Department? Was that Magnus? Did other Legions follow his example there? If so, that makes the wording of the Edict make a lot of sense.
Manchu wrote: Who came up with the idea of the Libararius Department? Was that Magnus? Did other Legions follow his example there? If so, that makes the wording of the Edict make a lot of sense.
Sang,Magnus and Khan if I'm not mistaken....
Also Corax is great...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 19:55:48
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
The Emperor Protects 
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