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frogy27 wrote:
And rail guns being nerfd to s8 makeing them no better then ms and useless fron what i have read they have been overall nerfed so my tau will still stay on the shelf

Oh noes! One version of a weapon on a single unit in my army is only S8 so it is now totally useless making my army worthless.

Not sure how an army that is already pretty low key can be "overall nerfed" in the first place. It isn't getting a massive power buff because GW finally seem to be trying to bring some sense of balance and power control back to the game. That is a GOOD thing. I am hopeful that the new book will be comparable and capable when compared to the other new codecies. The rail weapons on the combat suits are slightly less powerful, but get skyfire ability too so will be darn good at dropping just about any flyer in the game at this point. Meanwhile the rail weapon on the tanks will still be S10 and just as nasty to use.

I know it is too much to ask of some people, but how about waiting and seeing what is specifically in the new codex before calling your army totally useless might be in order, eh? Even better, waiting until you've played some games with the new codex to see how it really works before completely panning it...

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:
Oh noes! One version of a weapon on a single unit in my army is only S8 so it is now totally useless making my army worthless.

Except Broadsides provide something absolutely vital for a Tau army: reliable anti-tank that doesn't have to get up close before you can use it. And now that's entirely gone, leaving a bunch of mid-strength spam with melta as your only reliable anti-vehicle option. So you're killing fewer tanks, you have to wait until turn 2 to start killing them, and you probably lose your anti-tank unit after one shot. This is a HUGE nerf.

The rail weapons on the combat suits are slightly less powerful, but get skyfire ability too so will be darn good at dropping just about any flyer in the game at this point.

Except Broadsides were already decent at killing flyers since STR 10 AP 1 means you reliably hurt a flyer once you hit it (and you have a ~33% chance of hitting it). Now you're more likely to hit, but much less likely to do any damage, so the net gain against flyers is fairly small. In exchange Broadsides have been crippled against everything that isn't a flyer. This is not a fair trade.

Ok guys calm down, the ion cannon goes from S7 AP4 heavy 3 to Str9 AP2 Large blast after being nova boosted, burst cannon becoming 12 shots, I think Tau will be very interesting. The Riptide will be awesome at its T6 5W

Some Spanish guy leaked photos, scroll far down

http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11167664-rumores-tau/

Barrywise wrote:
Ok guys calm down, the ion cannon goes from S7 AP4 heavy 3 to Str9 AP2 Large blast after being nova boosted, burst cannon becoming 12 shots, I think Tau will be very interesting. The Riptide will be awesome at its T6 5W

Some Spanish guy leaked photos, scroll far down

http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11167664-rumores-tau/

So it has Toughness 6 and 5 wounds.

It is a very big target, and does not have eternal warrior?. If it does not well it sounds like a nice expensive paper weight to me

tau are going to be the go to gun line, and have better AA then guard

the riptide is awesome... 5 wounds on a t6 model is great, esp with its firepower, only force weapons will scare it.

s8 broadsides is not a nerf when they can now take sky fire,
thats a buff.

I know a lot of people around here are restarting their tau or getting interested in starting them now.

anything that puts more fighting robots on the table is ok by me!

 Peregrine wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
Oh noes! One version of a weapon on a single unit in my army is only S8 so it is now totally useless making my army worthless.

Except Broadsides provide something absolutely vital for a Tau army: reliable anti-tank that doesn't have to get up close before you can use it. And now that's entirely gone, leaving a bunch of mid-strength spam with melta as your only reliable anti-vehicle option. So you're killing fewer tanks, you have to wait until turn 2 to start killing them, and you probably lose your anti-tank unit after one shot. This is a HUGE nerf.

The rail weapons on the combat suits are slightly less powerful, but get skyfire ability too so will be darn good at dropping just about any flyer in the game at this point.

Except Broadsides were already decent at killing flyers since STR 10 AP 1 means you reliably hurt a flyer once you hit it (and you have a ~33% chance of hitting it). Now you're more likely to hit, but much less likely to do any damage, so the net gain against flyers is fairly small. In exchange Broadsides have been crippled against everything that isn't a flyer. This is not a fair trade.

What meta have you played in? IIRC, vehicles that arent flyers were nerfed hard this edition with hull points, and you're saying that anti-tank (or lack thereof) will make your list useless???!!?!? In this meta the new broadsides are better than you give them credit, but lets wait for the codex to come out before broadside spam users should start crying. /

The role of the broadsides have changed from armour killer to flyer killer. They can now easily blow apart even the scariest flyers, and will straight up laugh at dakkajets, and they can still easily take out light-medium ground armour, and MCs. Not to mention your other suits jumping in and hitting anything that's super tough with a long range melta gun or something. It seems to me that broadsides will still have their uses, and it sounds like the people concerned about the railgun nerf are likely the same people that like to complain about how powerful flyers are. I wouldn't be too concerened. In my meta at least, people aren't taking all that much armour any more anyways.

Option A.) 6 stealthsuits with 5 drone controllers(shas'vre already gets one) and 2 missile drones each... 334 points for a unit that can dump out 24 str 5 shots at 18 inches along with 24 str 7 ap 4 shots at 36"(bs2)....... Should i bother getting it or no?

Option B.) 3 man deathrain squad with 6 missile drones for 18(12 at bs2) Str 7 ap 4 shots at 26" for 222 points

option A.) gets a 4+ coversave standing out in the middle of nowhere

option B.) TL MP good ness.

a full missile side team with missile drones each is pumping out 24 str 7 ap 4 shots at 36" and 12 str5 ap 5 shots at 30 (half at BS 2), for 267 for 60 points more (327) those shots are all skyfire where as the options A and B cannot.

Fightiong Robots, flying waspMen, feral Kroot hunters, Ethereal mesmerizers, Robotech HoverTanks, Robotech battloids they call stealthsuits, Lockon Stratus looking(ish) gunBots, Imperial StormTroopers for troops, and World War II planes flying around?

Character, baby. Character.

What do you think about the new Kroot rules?

Kroot
6 pts each WITH 6+ armour. STR3, WS4. Hounds are 5 points. Krootox is 25pts. Precision ammo can make their guns sniper rifles. Wowa. 20 Sniper Rifles? Now that's something. They get acute senses from their hounds (tracking dawgs).

 ace101 wrote:
What meta have you played in?

The one where vehicles still exist in 6th. Transports may have been nerfed, but that just means that the vehicles you DO see are going to be the more durable ones where all those fancy new STR 7 weapons are marginal at best.

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
The role of the broadsides have changed from armour killer to flyer killer.

Except, again, Broadsides were already good at killing flyers. The increase to-hit chance is offset by the significantly reduced chance of doing anything when you hit, so the net result in average damage to a flyer is fairly small.

and they can still easily take out light-medium ground armour

Not really. Against a Rhino you go from a 62.5% chance to pen with each shot to a 37.5% chance to pen, which is pretty much cutting your effectiveness in half. And that's not even counting the fact that you can't get BS 4 Broadsides anymore.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
Oh noes! One version of a weapon on a single unit in my army is only S8 so it is now totally useless making my army worthless.

Except Broadsides provide something absolutely vital for a Tau army: reliable anti-tank that doesn't have to get up close before you can use it. And now that's entirely gone, leaving a bunch of mid-strength spam with melta as your only reliable anti-vehicle option. So you're killing fewer tanks, you have to wait until turn 2 to start killing them, and you probably lose your anti-tank unit after one shot. This is a HUGE nerf.

The rail weapons on the combat suits are slightly less powerful, but get skyfire ability too so will be darn good at dropping just about any flyer in the game at this point.

Except Broadsides were already decent at killing flyers since STR 10 AP 1 means you reliably hurt a flyer once you hit it (and you have a ~33% chance of hitting it). Now you're more likely to hit, but much less likely to do any damage, so the net gain against flyers is fairly small. In exchange Broadsides have been crippled against everything that isn't a flyer. This is not a fair trade.

I have to say, after running the math, Peregrine seems to be right. One Railgun Broadside (assuming BS3 and twin-linked) costs about as much as two devestators with lascannons and the Lascannons put out almost twice the number of penetrating hits against every type of armour that isn't a flier. This can, of course, change with markerlight support, but that in turn allows for more Lascannons to be added to the equation.

The gain against AV12 fliers is 25% though, so hardly small, but the question is if the Tau have enough thingies to effectively combat heavy armour at range. Speaking of which, we haven't seen stats or rules for the Skyray yet, have we?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I would agree to that if our Heavy Support slot wasn't limited to being the only decent slot for taking out armor at range. When other armies can field triple t/l lascannon predators at a cheaper price than our single shot Hammerhead, the various Leman Russ and Land Raider variants, drop pod melta units on the cheap side, or just bringing heavy weapons in troop slots. Also the "re-purposing" to an AA unit was already discussed as being almost negligible due to the drop in S.

Or just be a dismissive jerk and think that all people are saying about the issue is crying. The day that infantry with lascannons are S7 Ap2, since S9 should be rare, I would understand the decision. Quite frankly I'm not too worried about it now that I know that Fusion blasters are up to 18" range and will probably spam melta suits in the off chance I see Land Raiders, since a single S10 shot is almost completely worthless against it.

Call me a jerk if you want, but S8 is hardly useless. It can still kill Land Raiders (which almost no one uses) by glancing (yes, takes a whole lot of shots, I know), and everything AV13 and less. And last I heard for Broadsides it's AP1 so whatever it penetrates it also has a 50% chance of destroying outright. Plus there seems to be a fair amount of S7 shots available to use against transports and the like. It's hardly the end of the world for Tau. For example my Orks certainly have far more issues with AV14 and even AV13 (and 2+/3+ armor saves, for that matter) than the Tau will based on what info I've seen so far.

''According to a conversation we had with Games Workshop's Trade Department, virtually the entire range of Tau is now out of stock.''

Seems popular enough!

 zephoid wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Fifth edition Tyranids was a good, relatively balanced codex that caused a lot of people to whine because they were expecting something that was ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced.

Sounds like someone who hasnt even looked at the codex. You have 9 units to build a competitive list from: Tyrant, Terv, gaunt, Zoan, HG, Ymargl, Biovore, Doom, Trygon. After that you are venturing into the poor-horrible realm. Nids is still the worst internally balanced codex in current use and is only limping along because tervigons exist. When one unit is the only thing keeping a codex from being entirely invalid, the book is crap. I would agree, i wouldnt wish a 5th nid codex on anyone.


Tau will see an overall improvement in play. Pretty significantly, they will also be one of the most popular ally choices due to the number of armies they ally with. They also have access to Eldar for psychic powers and defense, something that they lack, and will see a lot of the other gaps in the old codex filled in. They will have more mid-strength shooting, more ways to deal with assault, and generally a stronger codex. How internally balanced the codex is remains to be seen, but at this point the old codex is nearly invalid for competitive settings. They can really only go up.

See, I've never understood that; why is a codex only "balanced" if it's written for competitive play? Why can it not be balanced around the majority of people who use it; normal, average, non-tournament gamers who build lists using a combination of competitiveness, PLUS theme and model appeal?

Honestly, I'm beginning to see more and more similarities between tournament tabletop gamers, and the "hardcore raider" crowd in MMOs; a small minority of the playerbase who expect a disproportionate level of consideration when new content is being made, and who resort to hyperbolic doom&gloom whenever they don't get it.

 tvih wrote:
It can still kill Land Raiders (which almost no one uses) by glancing (yes, takes a whole lot of shots, I know), and everything AV13 and less.

"Can kill" is not the same thing as "effectively kill". Broadsides went from being effective against all vehicles (and incredibly effective against medium/light vehicles) to being mediocre at best against even basic Rhinos*. So in exchange for a small improvement against flyers (in an army that already has more AA than any other codex) Broadsides are absolutely crippled against anything that isn't a flyer.

*A lascannon hit has a 22% chance of killing a Rhino. A hit from a new Broadside has a 25% chance of killing a Rhino. An old Broadside has a 41% chance of killing a Rhino. See the problem yet?

Plus there seems to be a fair amount of S7 shots available to use against transports and the like.

STR 7 is garbage against vehicles, especially when it's AP 3 and worse like most of the Tau weapons.

It's hardly the end of the world for Tau. For example my Orks certainly have far more issues with AV14 and even AV13 (and 2+/3+ armor saves, for that matter) than the Tau will based on what info I've seen so far.

The point is that Broadsides were a defining unit for the Tau, and vital to the Tau strategy. Now they're gone and there's nothing to replace them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
See, I've never understood that; why is a codex only "balanced" if it's written for competitive play? Why can it not be balanced around the majority of people who use it; normal, average, non-tournament gamers who build lists using a combination of competitiveness, PLUS theme and model appeal?

Because that's taking the lazy way out. Being balanced for competitive play is a higher standard than being balanced for "average" play. A codex that is balanced for competitive play will be balanced for "average" play, while a codex that is only balanced for "average" play probably won't be balanced for competitive play. Judging codex balance by "average" play is just holding GW to a lower standard and admitting that they are too incompetent to figure out how to make a decent product.

 Yodhrin wrote:

See, I've never understood that; why is a codex only "balanced" if it's written for competitive play? Why can it not be balanced around the majority of people who use it; normal, average, non-tournament gamers who build lists using a combination of competitiveness, PLUS theme and model appeal?

The answer is easy: because if you create an army with optimized gameplay in mind, then you should end up with strong and useful units in said army. Every other option would produce a sub-optimal army list. Example: Codex: Grey Knights (Dark Angels are also close).

If you go for the theme and feel, then you will get useless and garbage units because your hands are tied by the "theme" and the "feel". So some units will have stupid wargear/special rules because otherwise, they would stick out. Example: Codex: Nurgle and Baledrakes.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

Barrywise wrote:
Ok guys calm down, the ion cannon goes from S7 AP4 heavy 3 to Str9 AP2 Large blast after being nova boosted, burst cannon becoming 12 shots, I think Tau will be very interesting. The Riptide will be awesome at its T6 5W

Some Spanish guy leaked photos, scroll far down

http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11167664-rumores-tau/

So it has Toughness 6 and 5 wounds.

It is a very big target, and does not have eternal warrior?. If it does not well it sounds like a nice expensive paper weight to me

Are you kidding? As a Nid player, the lack of EW is no big deal at all, unless you're playing tons of Grey Knights or something.

From the changes I have read tau will be a deadly foe. Having multiple units overwatch at once, broadsides as anit-aircraft hammerheads and fire warriors getting a price reduction.

I got my stats mixed up, the riptide will be deadly once I can get the money together.

All and all I am vary excited for the new book.

 Melissia wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I wouldn't wish anyone to get a codex like 5ed 'Nids ever.

Fifth edition Tyranids was a good, relatively balanced codex that caused a lot of people to whine because they were expecting something that was ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced.

Have an exalt, madam. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Anyway, from what I've seen Tau are a really potent army now. They're different, but potent. They don't look to be of Blood Angels/Grey Knights/Necron levels of OP (for example, if someone gets into combat with them, they're dead) but they're definitely competitive.

Of course, it is early to say seeing as the Codex isn't out yet.

As for "worth playing" as a casual player who enjoys the "beer and pretzels" side, if you like an army and like their fluff, models, aesthetic etc, then they're worth playing.

To all haters of the new codex: give me a break! You haven't actually read it yet. Just because the broadside rail gun is now strength 8 does not mean it is nerffed. How many strength 8 weapons out there are AP 1? Not many guys. Don't forget what AP 1 does on the vehicle damage table. So easy to turn a penetrating hit into an inferno! All in all I feel like the army has been rounded out very well. Now I don't have to rely on a select few models to be competitive. I'm looking forward to trying out the new Vespid stats with their increase ballistic range and pulse carbines Assault 2? Awesome! Fish of fury here I come!

If anything I feel like Tau have only become more mobile. Advance two units of FW for some supporting fire and now they come standard with photon grenades? Who wants to assault that? That's just one example. It seems to me that GW has not only made this army terrible in assault but given it the opportunity to stay out of assault.

As has been posted previously let's be flexible. The new models are gorgeous (so glad they fixed that old broadside!) and the new codex opens new tactical options that did not exist before. Happy gaming!

I think it might be worth noting that the new hammerhead with long strike has a 46%? chance to pen av 14, which isn't that bad but not the 75% chance for a squad of 3 4th ed broadsides but is something like 180ish points.

Its also fair to note that we now have some decent ways to hit rear armor with fliers, outflanking and deep striking.

(I definitely like the idea of outflanking broadsides /skyrays / riptide into the enemy black field for good times.)

lol... people crying about broadsides... really?

you still have access to the str 10 ap1 rail cannon...

a unit going from UBER anti av 14,

to UBER anti flyer, AND very good against av 13 isnt a big deal, nor is it a nerf, it is in fact a strong buff.

if your entire strategy relys on str 10 ap1, because everyone is taking land raiders where you live, well you can still access railcannons...

this edition, uber AA is better then uber anti tank, by far.

I thought everyone had expected that the popular current units its would loose something and the new ones get loads of stuff.

Its how GW works

From what I have read in White Dwarf alone there are lots on new abilities like the combined overwatch rules, repulsor impact fields, missile drones, new veteran fire warriors that seem to have BS 5.........and give an extra shot to accompanying fire warriors.

easysauce wrote:
lol... people crying about broadsides... really?

you still have access to the str 10 ap1 rail cannon...

a unit going from UBER anti av 14,

to UBER anti flyer, AND very good against av 13 isnt a big deal, nor is it a nerf, it is in fact a strong buff.

Actually, it went from superior AT to superior point-defense. It isn't really the best unit in the codex to do the AA (you will have the Sky Ray or Sunforge suits for that), but with missiles and the "BS2 overwatch" system, it will be a deadly background support unit.

The main reason they droped the broadside down to str 8 was to remove both the long range Landraider delete unit and the lets spam the crap out of this unit in every meta.

Pretty much every codex that needed to remove a AV 14 vehicle had to use a melta spam unit that was very short ranged, well guess what? Tau have to do that now aswell but our Melta(fusion) spam is now at 18" rather then 12". If we want long range Anti tank fire we use Longstrike in a Hammerhead which has a 27.77% chance to destroy a AV 14 target in 1 hit.

and about the Sunforge being a good AA your pay 62 PPM for that 1 shot and if you have to measure from the model to the flyer model you have to be within what 3" of the base to get that extra d6 pen?

No they droppd the Broadside down to make you buy Hammerheads.

 Jancoran wrote:
No they droppd the Broadside down to make you buy Hammerheads.

so 1 hammerhead for $60 or 3 new broadsides for $150..... Yeah they did that to make you buy hammerheads.....................

 Ninjacommando wrote:

and about the Sunforge being a good AA your pay 62 PPM for that 1 shot and if you have to measure from the model to the flyer model you have to be within what 3" of the base to get that extra d6 pen?

You don't need the 2D6 to be effective. The biggest problem of the Broadside is its vulnerability and complete lack of mobility. The Sunforge can Deep Strike to deal with both problems. And 62 points are still cheaper than 85 .

 tvih wrote:
Call me a jerk if you want, but S8 is hardly useless.

I concur. Sisters have nothing better than S8, and we still manage to kill armor well enough.

Tau are definitely much stronger than Sisters in the current meta, but meh, that's the life of a ten year old codex replaced by a half-assed and lazy white dwarf "codex".