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Adam LongWalker wrote:@ Kingsley - Interesting read.

Here's a chart for console gaming.

http://www.vgchartz.com/article/250880/2013-year-on-year-sales-and-market-share-update-to-march-30th/

Another chart for standard console global spikes.

http://www.vgchartz.com/tools/hw_date.php

Click on the all tab to see the cycle of the console hardware sales

Here's one in Time's web site

http://business.time.com/2013/02/11/game-over-why-video-game-console-sales-are-plummeting/


Oh and starcraft 2. Incredibly popular around the world with hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money every year. I'm rooting for Axiom Acer in the GSTL leagues .

http://www.gomtv.net/

Enjoy.

Not sure I see the relevance of that information. I am fully aware of Starcraft II's eSports popularity, but even still the RTS genre is not considered particularly vibrant.

Sean_OBrien wrote:It is also important to see how much of a bump the LotR sales gave the US...

From 2001 (before LotR) - they were at 31.5 million pounds. At the height of the "LotR bubble" they were at 33.1 million pounds. That is a change of around 5%. Normally that would not qualify as being bubble worthy. Europe saw a greater rise than the US did on LotR sales...but we are not talking about Europe or GW's global sales - just the North American segment and the US in particular (as it relates to the internet ban being "a good thing").

The drop that followed the "LotR bubble" (which I think was largely a myth...at least in the US - I don't recall seeing or hearing of a game of that ever being played even during the high point of the movies) happens to coincide with the ban and the first big price hike.

The price hike in 2005 was roughly 15% on an army build. And their sales figures plummeted. 2006 was another hike of 7% and the sales dropped some more. 2007 and 2008 prices stabilized for a bit - and sales flattened out.

Nah...GW said it is all a good thing, so it must be true.

The problem with the LotR bubble is that it took sales away from other GW products, and many of those sales did not return when it was over. Thus, the actual growth was limited (though from what I hear substantially bigger in Europe), but the long-term consequences were negative. I actually expected to quit 40k in 3 years, expecting a similar boom and bust cycle with The Hobbit, but luckily it does not appear to have caught on to the same extent and hopefully will not cause a similar crash.

 Kingsley wrote:

Not sure I see the relevance of that information. I am fully aware of Starcraft II's eSports popularity, but even still the RTS genre is not considered particularly vibrant.

But it's not particularly dead.

The problem with the LotR bubble is that it took sales away from other GW products, and many of those sales did not return when it was over.

Did it? In the US specifically. Like I said, I don't recall seeing or hearing from any of the people who I know around the US of games being played either in stores or at private venues (homes or clubs). I know a few people who bought them - but they bought them for the figures not for the GW game and they were not GW customers at all to begin with. The store owners, distributors and others on the inside of the industry have shared similar perspectives. Articles in trade magazines also support this position.

The LotR was not a rain maker in the US for GW.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

The problem with the LotR bubble is that it took sales away from other GW products, and many of those sales did not return when it was over.

Did it? In the US specifically. Like I said, I don't recall seeing or hearing from any of the people who I know around the US of games being played either in stores or at private venues (homes or clubs). I know a few people who bought them - but they bought them for the figures not for the GW game and they were not GW customers at all to begin with. The store owners, distributors and others on the inside of the industry have shared similar perspectives. Articles in trade magazines also support this position.

The LotR was not a rain maker in the US for GW.

I know several people in the US who played LotR. Some of them switched from 40k to LotR-- and when LotR died down, they didn't pick up 40k again. GW put a lot of effort into promoting LotR in the US, but much of that took away from 40k and Fantasy (what with the two-sided White Dwarf issues, some GW stores having half their space for LotR purposes, etc.), and LotR proved to be short-term.

 Kingsley wrote:
The problem with the LotR bubble is that it took sales away from other GW products, and many of those sales did not return when it was over.

The reason the LotR bubble was called a bubble was because it was a big extra blob of sales on top of the normal sales. That took nothing away from other GW products... they were additional sales, and a large number of them were to people who don't play GW's other games or come from GW's normal audience, which is why so many 40K or WHFB players claim to have never seen anyone play the game.


The growth from it was temporary, and if the long term consequences were negative it was because large chunks of GW's core fanbase felt a little neglected by the end of it rather than because they had been spending their cash on LotR and just didn't know what to do with their cash when it went away.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

The problem with the LotR bubble is that it took sales away from other GW products, and many of those sales did not return when it was over.

Did it? In the US specifically. Like I said, I don't recall seeing or hearing from any of the people who I know around the US of games being played either in stores or at private venues (homes or clubs). I know a few people who bought them - but they bought them for the figures not for the GW game and they were not GW customers at all to begin with. The store owners, distributors and others on the inside of the industry have shared similar perspectives. Articles in trade magazines also support this position.

The LotR was not a rain maker in the US for GW.

I know several people in the US who played LotR. Some of them switched from 40k to LotR-- and when LotR died down, they didn't pick up 40k again. GW put a lot of effort into promoting LotR in the US, but much of that took away from 40k and Fantasy (what with the two-sided White Dwarf issues, some GW stores having half their space for LotR purposes, etc.), and LotR proved to be short-term.

Your perspective is skewed...

If you are attempting to compare anything (especially during the period in question) regarding general gaming versus GW stores... That is like asking someone in who lives in Vatican city how many people they know go to church each Sunday...

In FY2004 - roughly 60% of North American sales were through independent sales. Since each dollar (or pound, or yen, or rupie...) of GW sales through an independent is achieved by selling twice as much stock as selling through GW direct (due to wholesale discounts) that would mean that for each 4 units of a given item that GW sold through GW stores - independent stores would sell 12 units of the same item (give or take an item...but this is simple maths to illustrate). Indpendent stores did not go through and slash their shelf stock to make room for LotR purposes. They didn't cordon off tables for LotR demo games. They didn't plaster the walls, ceilings and windows with signage...that was left to Vatican City...errr...GW stores, where you already have a congregation of true believers.

They also only had 75 GW stores in the entire North American region (21 of which were opened during the 2004 FY). The independent hobby store population has been hovering around 2000 or so stores for the past couple decades (give or take a hundred or so at any given time). 50-75 GW stores, compared to 2000 or so independent stores...the GW stores are a tiny portion of the larger gaming community. There is a comment in one of the reports (either 2003 or 2004...I forget off the top of my head) which also indicates that sales of the LotR through independent retailers remains sluggish in North America.

I am sure it sold. I can guarantee that it was sold to true believers through GW stores - I just don't see anything that supports a claim that that was a significant player on GW sales in the US. They did a lot of bad managing at the same time - and that had a likely larger impact here. In the UK and Europe where you had the TV ads, DeAgostini magazines and the like...sure, bubble...pop...fizzle. That didn't happen here though.

Look at you, with your words, proof and evidence. That's no way to conduct a debate!

Spurious examples, anecdotes and opinion are where it's at!

 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
I think the company you are thinking of is TSR, not FASA

Prior to FASA going belly up, fans went through about 4 years of the cold shoulder treatment. Local stores, like Tin Soldiers and MilSims, had awful trouble getting stock in, with very little explanation given. Shipment of stock was promised over and over again, but the stuff never arrived. We had hardly any internet access at the time, so most players in my area had no idea what was going on.

The old FASA IP was sold to a fan-owned company which has, as far as I know, done a fantastic job. Classic Battletech was released and has been supported by them well.

Somehow, I can't imagine GW being sold at a price that a fan-owned company could afford. We just don't have enough kidneys between us

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

I am sure it sold. I can guarantee that it was sold to true believers through GW stores - I just don't see anything that supports a claim that that was a significant player on GW sales in the US. They did a lot of bad managing at the same time - and that had a likely larger impact here. In the UK and Europe where you had the TV ads, DeAgostini magazines and the like...sure, bubble...pop...fizzle. That didn't happen here though.

The LotR sets were for sale in Borders, Barns & Nobles, and other large book store chains in the US. That is exposure outside the normal LGS and GW stores.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites.

This has happened to a limited extent. But there are also fans that GW has worked with, fan sites that GW supports, etc.

Name one.

I'm aware of a fan-film that GW tolerates, but I can't think of a single fan activity or site GW has worked without outside it's own stores or GCN.

Let's just say:
Burger King and McDonalds are much more similar than Kingsley's opinion to reality.

BTW: Wow, didn't know that US sales actually went DOWN during the LOTR bubble in the rest of the world.

 Kingsley wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:

Yes, but again, Burger King and McDonalds are much more similar than 40k and Infinity.

KFC, then? They sell mostly chicken, and yet still McDonald's competitor. Or any other fast food, for that matter.

The fundamentals of going to KFC or McDonalds (or indeed any fast food restaurant) are more similar than 40k is to Infinity.

Buy models, paint models, play a game? The fundamentals seem pretty similar.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Yes, which would be why the 2001 number (prior to the release of the LotR game) is higher than every year outside of the LotR period except for last year...

GW is very good at spinning things as "good things" - very rarely are they telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

11 years of possible growth in one of the largest consumer economies in the world and they manage to do absolutely nothing to their top end sales figure. During that time, prices have gone up on average 40% on an army build...and no change at all. So, does it make sense that what GW says about good for sales would be true? Nah...that would be crazy talk.

"We're closing the gaming in the store. That is good news!"

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:

Yes, but again, Burger King and McDonalds are much more similar than 40k and Infinity.

KFC, then? They sell mostly chicken, and yet still McDonald's competitor. Or any other fast food, for that matter.

The fundamentals of going to KFC or McDonalds (or indeed any fast food restaurant) are more similar than 40k is to Infinity.

Buy models, paint models, play a game? The fundamentals seem pretty similar.

Apparently not too similar for him for other games to be considered as GW's competition, it seems.

Herzlos wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites.

This has happened to a limited extent. But there are also fans that GW has worked with, fan sites that GW supports, etc.

Name one.

I'm aware of a fan-film that GW tolerates, but I can't think of a single fan activity or site GW has worked without outside it's own stores or GCN.

GW constantly promotes cool stuff from its fans, features their work in its publications, etc.

 Kingsley wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites.

This has happened to a limited extent. But there are also fans that GW has worked with, fan sites that GW supports, etc.

Name one.

I'm aware of a fan-film that GW tolerates, but I can't think of a single fan activity or site GW has worked without outside it's own stores or GCN.

GW constantly promotes cool stuff from its fans, features their work in its publications, etc.

Oh you mean when they take stuff from fans and use it as free content on their blog or magazine? That's not the same thing.

Herzlos wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites.

This has happened to a limited extent. But there are also fans that GW has worked with, fan sites that GW supports, etc.

Name one.

I'm aware of a fan-film that GW tolerates, but I can't think of a single fan activity or site GW has worked without outside it's own stores or GCN.

GW constantly promotes cool stuff from its fans, features their work in its publications, etc.

Oh you mean when they take stuff from fans and use it as free content on their blog or magazine? That's not the same thing.

Exactly, I've seen plenty of "Timmy here has painted his brand new GW Riptide(tm) blue" but absolutely no "Jimmy over at [blog name here] has converted and painted this, go check out his blog to see more". There is a difference between working with fan sites and asking fans to send in pics to use in your own blog/magazine.

The last time I can remember when a fan's army was used in a White Dwarf Battle report was back at the beginning of 3rd edition. Blood Angels versus Eldar I believe.

Try modding your own miniatures and walking into a GW store, you will be promptly told you can't play with anything that isn't kitbashed using 100% GW product. They see themselves as the hobby, and the ONLY hobby.

I was told by the lad at the Brisbane Chermside store that if you wandered in with Balrog wings on a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant you were asked to leave. Now where is that fan/community support?

We are getting off the topic here. Complaints about GW shop game policies are better off discussed in the thread on "Has it always been this bad?"

The balrog wing thing was nothing to do with community support. Back when LotR was a thing, GW's licence forbade them from mixing it with their other games. So there were rules for a while about mixing components from between the games. They started out not allowing them at all in official events, but eventually relaxed it to not showing photos of such models. Some store staff got a little confused about it though, with the occasional one going so far as to claim that mixing parts from the different ranges was illegal...

A lot of people seem to have misunderstood the Burger King vs. McDonalds comparison-- perhaps intentionally so. What I'm saying is this: The fundamental experience of collecting and playing 40k or WHFB is different to the experience of collecting and playing most other miniatures games on the market right now. I say this as someone who has collected and played many miniatures games, both GW and non-GW.

In 40k, you collect an army and are encouraged to "make it your own" with conversions, unique paint schemes, etc. You then fight against another army in a large-scale conflict involving multiple units, vehicles, etc. on both sides. The end result is a large battle between two individually customized forces-- this result is what is largely unique to 40k/WHFB. Other games in a similar space involve much less customization-- many, like Infinity, do not even have plastic models, which are key to allowing individual creativity on a whole-army level.

There is no game at present that encourages you to customize a large force in the same way that 40k and Fantasy do. While other games like Warmahordes, Infinity, and Malifaux can superficially be considered direct competitors with GW, in point of fact that is not the case-- the core experience of collecting and playing those games is fundamentally different from the core experience of collecting and playing 40k. I've seen postings for Warmahordes tournaments that don't allow conversions-- that would never fly for 40k.

GW has done a very good job of marketing "the Games Workshop hobby" as a complete experience. Now, they don't have a monopoly on it-- I remember playing Ætherverse back in the day and loving how it was even more of a customizable hobby experience than what GW had to offer-- but right now most of their competitors have not really been seriously challenging them on that front. For this reason, 40k and Fantasy seem to exist in a different "subgenre" of tabletop game, and one that, for better or for worse, GW owns at present.

 Morachi wrote:
I was told by the lad at the Brisbane Chermside store that if you wandered in with Balrog wings on a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant you were asked to leave. Now where is that fan/community support?

That was thanks to a licensing agreement that forbade mixing of Lord of the Rings and Warhammer/Warhammer 40k content. It was out of GW's hands.

The hard part of analyzing the effect of LoTR effect on the base GW product is the slowing down - sometimes it seems- to a snail pace the release of new content to their core products...

So while the Two Towers was released and bought, how many people just got fed up and dumped 40k because they got sick of waiting for the Dark Eldar codex release or some new models for their favorite army?

No matter what, there is limited game development, modeling staff and production facilities available. If you dedicate your staff to LotR, you are taking away time that could have been spent on 40K or Fantasy. That is a hidden effect that is hard to define. The fact is that LotR and now the Hobbit, are short-lived products that may appeal to a larger sum than the normal GW consumer so they may see a limited spike in sales. The problem is if someone does not continue to buy a LotR Rohan force or another Mordor army, they will fail to make the longer impact.

 Kingsley wrote:
A lot of people seem to have misunderstood the Burger King vs. McDonalds comparison-- perhaps intentionally so. What I'm saying is this: The fundamental experience of collecting and playing 40k or WHFB is different to the experience of collecting and playing most other miniatures games on the market right now. I say this as someone who has collected and played many miniatures games, both GW and non-GW.

And the fundamental difference of KFC and Mcdonald's is that KFC is more focused on selling fried chicken while McDonald's is more on burgers and fries. In the end you still eat them.

No one is misunderstanding your point: it's just that it's entirely absurd that you get stuck up with this segment of difference in wargames (level of customization, which is also absurd because you can still customize other games's miniatures and call it your own), and yet won't acknowledge the difference in others (mechanical and setting difference in different tabletop RPGS, different kinds of food). It's very hypocritical.

Note to everyone else: Kingsley apparently has me on ignore. My replies to his replies are for the others who read this thread.

 Kingsley wrote:

In 40k, you collect an army and are encouraged to "make it your own" with conversions, unique paint schemes, etc. You then fight against another army in a large-scale conflict involving multiple units, vehicles, etc. on both sides. The end result is a large battle between two individually customized forces-- this result is what is largely unique to 40k/WHFB. Other games in a similar space involve much less customization-- many, like Infinity, do not even have plastic models, which are key to allowing individual creativity on a whole-army level.

I can only think of 2 situations were customization isn't encouraged, and that's warmachine (because it's important to be able to identify characters) and historics (where accuracy is regarded as important).

Conversion with everything else is generally accepted, though you're right in that most ranges are metal and conversion is harder.

It's also worth noting that the only conversion GW encourages is kitbashing; taking parts from another kit and using them instead, within a small realm of what's allowed (it has to be WYSIWYG and match the codex). 3rd party bits or custom sculpts are frowned upon.

So you could argue that GW figures are more restricted in terms of conversion, even if it's physically easier to do with plastic/finecast.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Obviously that North American Sales skyrocketed after the 2003 (GW FY2004) internet ban went in place...wait...nope, that didn't happen:

2001 - 31,539,000
2002 - 32,791,000 (launch of LotR game)
2003 - 32,218,000
2004 - 33,110,000 (US Internet shopping cart ban and GW global sales high point)
2005 - 29,624,000 (with the ginormous price hike)
2006 - 27,766,000
2007 - 25,534,000
2008 - 26,844,000
2009 - 29,904,000
2010 - 31,270,000
2011 - 30,250,000
2012 - 33,621,000

All in pounds of course...but, the evidence clearly shows that the internet ban has been excellent for growing sales in the US...oh, my bad again...it didn't instill growth at all.

Does anyone have the specifics on how much GW has jacked up prices each year?

I seem to recall a box of CSM being $20 in 2003, with the current price being $37.25. Even if I'm off a few bucks, it will still demonstrate my point. Assuming a linear price increase of 7% each year (7.5% gets you from 20 to 37.25 in 10 years), the numbers get adjusted back to the below:

2003 - 32,218,000
2004 - 30,792,300
2005 - 25,476,640
2006 - 21,935,140
2007 - 18,384,480
2008 - 17,448,600
2009 - 17,344,320
2010 - 15,947,700
2011 - 13,310,000
2012 - 12,439,770

Even if you just adjust for inflation, you end up with the below:

2003 - 32,218,000
2004 - 32,017,370
2005 - 27,639,192
2006 - 25,211,528
2007 - 22,137,978
2008 - 23,246,904
2009 - 25,089,456
2010 - 25,766,480
2011 - 24,018,500
2012 - 26,123,517

Seems pretty clear that GW's volume is declining and they are jacking up prices to keep up the revenue.

Herzlos wrote:

I can only think of 2 situations were customization isn't encouraged, and that's warmachine (because it's important to be able to identify characters)...

Even then that is more the playerbase. PP themselves apparently love people converting things.

Back to the point at hand Kingsley if your entire argument here is that GW games are different because plastic is easier to convert than metal you are on very very thin ice man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:

It's also worth noting that the only conversion GW encourages is kitbashing; taking parts from another kit and using them instead, within a small realm of what's allowed (it has to be WYSIWYG and match the codex). 3rd party bits or custom sculpts are frowned upon.

So you could argue that GW figures are more restricted in terms of conversion, even if it's physically easier to do with plastic/finecast.

Also this.

Actually Kingsley has a point that 40K being wide open, having a lot of selections, and using mainly plastic models lends itself to conversions and scratchbuilding.

It is sad that GW have reduced their support and encouragement of this sort of activity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But we are still off topic.

 Kingsley wrote:

There is no game at present that encourages you to customize a large force in the same way that 40k and Fantasy do. While other games like Warmahordes, Infinity, and Malifaux can superficially be considered direct competitors with GW, in point of fact that is not the case-- the core experience of collecting and playing those games is fundamentally different from the core experience of collecting and playing 40k. I've seen postings for Warmahordes tournaments that don't allow conversions-- that would never fly for 40k.

Just a point of order, the official Privateer tournament rules allow conversions (with parts from any range) if it's at least half the original model and weapons aren't changed to weapons with different in-game effects. Even then, the TO is free to make exceptions if it's plain at a glance what a model is meant to be. Like this one: http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b289/Elemental402/Miniatures/IMG_3491.jpg

So... OP, if you're still reading this thread...

Are you going to pick up GW products anyways? I know that you're a first time store owner, and GW products do still sell, and in some cases, sell well, but after this showing are you just going to drop it?

Also as a point of suggestion, I would take a copy of your invoices of product you've bought from other companies with the important details like credit card info etc... blacked out, and I would send these copies to GW with a hand written (or typed) letter explaining your situation and how appalled you were at their showing at the trade show, and because of this you felt it was an unwise business decision to stock GW products because you didn't want to deal with a company that didn't support it's stockists. Show them the nice highlighted sections on the invoice showing them how much money you spent on Company X's product and Company Y's game. Ship that off to Nottingham... If GW doesn't like 1 thing besides veteran gamers, it's being shown how much money they're not getting...

 jonolikespie wrote:
Back to the point at hand Kingsley if your entire argument here is that GW games are different because plastic is easier to convert than metal you are on very very thin ice man.

I have to say I'm getting increasingly tired of people who seemingly don't bother to read the entirety of a post or understand the nuance of a complicated argument.

Alfndrate wrote:So... OP, if you're still reading this thread...

Are you going to pick up GW products anyways? I know that you're a first time store owner, and GW products do still sell, and in some cases, sell well, but after this showing are you just going to drop it?

Also as a point of suggestion, I would take a copy of your invoices of product you've bought from other companies with the important details like credit card info etc... blacked out, and I would send these copies to GW with a hand written (or typed) letter explaining your situation and how appalled you were at their showing at the trade show, and because of this you felt it was an unwise business decision to stock GW products because you didn't want to deal with a company that didn't support it's stockists. Show them the nice highlighted sections on the invoice showing them how much money you spent on Company X's product and Company Y's game. Ship that off to Nottingham... If GW doesn't like 1 thing besides veteran gamers, it's being shown how much money they're not getting...

This is great advice. When you get right down to it, GW more or less doesn't care about what people say on the Internet. They care about what does and doesn't sell, and as a store owner your voice is likely more likely to be heard at GW than that of the average gamer, as you have much more of a role in determining what does and doesn't sell.

 Kingsley wrote:
A lot of people seem to have misunderstood the Burger King vs. McDonalds comparison-- perhaps intentionally so. What I'm saying is this: The fundamental experience of collecting and playing 40k or WHFB is different to the experience of collecting and playing most other miniatures games on the market right now. I say this as someone who has collected and played many miniatures games, both GW and non-GW.

Speaking as a person that has played miniature games since my older brother bought Chainmail in 1980, I have to say that the gaming experiences really, really, really aren't as different as you think.

You, yourself, might see a tremendous difference. Judging from the majority of the posts in this forum and my own, personal experience, most people don't see the difference you do.

So, GW encourages you to make conversions. So what? You can make conversions with any game, regardless of whether or not they encourage you to do so. Unique paint schemes are not unique to GW. While most people playing Warmachine Menoth stick to the book paint scheme, back when I played several years ago, I had my own paint scheme for my Menoth, and the store owner had his own, different scheme for his Menoth.

The simple fact of the matter is the vast majority of people who play out there aren't as interested in this whole area of conversion and customization as a difference maker between game systems as you are. Most of us just want to play a good game without having to break our bank to do so. Most of us are more interested in well written, balanced rule sets from a game company that supports the community with timely rules updates and events. When we're sitting down to play a game, we might spend a couple of minutes admiring a well made conversion or original paint job, but we're going to spend the next 2-3 hours dealing with the game and its rules.