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Made in us
Infiltrating Prowler






carmachu wrote:

Thats all great, but the real telling is what were the number of units sold per year?


Not sure that would help. GW was switching to plastic from metal that entire time. A single 10 man box would show up as one unit where two man blisters for the same number would show up as 5 units.

That leads to an interesting theory. Not a defense of GW, but a possible cause of their downfall.

One word: PLASTIC

In almost all cases, when GW would switch from metal to plastic, there would be a price reduction. Suddenly those metal figures at $3 each cost only $2 each in plastic. When the changes first started, that 5 man units of knights that was $33 is now $20, but you don't need 8 - 9 knights, 5 still suffice. GW has lost 40% of their revenue. You may decide to get another unit or a friend starts the game and gets a unit. As long as enough additional purchases were made to make up the difference, GW would make out. But factor in inflation and not enough people buying more of the new plastic units, and GW lost money on that unit conversion. Result GW changes the rules where you now need 8 knights instead of 5 or they raise the price.

Thus the downward spiral begins. The early 2000's saw a lot of RnF units switch to plastic. So players initially saw savings and bought more and new players came in also because the game was becoming more "accessible" and GW was growing by 15 to 18% during that time. But what if that growth wasn't enough to counter act the price reduction for each kit? Eventually GW has reduced prices from switching from metal to plastic where suddenly there aren't enough new players or old players buying stuff to keep the sales increases going? They saturated their market.

Would we be seeing the regular price hikes and increasing unit counts each edition if GW had not made the savings on plastics as much?

Again, not a defense of GW, just a thought on the whole thing.
   
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silent25 wrote:
In almost all cases, when GW would switch from metal to plastic, there would be a price reduction.

This was true for a time, but hasn't always been the case. There have been quite a few examples of plastics coming out at the same price as the metals they replaced (see Space Marine Terminators).


There's also the fact that the production costs for plastic are quite a bit lower than for metal once the moulding costs are accounted for ... and those start-up costs are absorbed by the previous sets. The material is cheaper, and casting less labour intensive. Shipping is also cheaper... which adds up to a considerable saving when you're looking at container loads at a time.

 
   
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 Alfndrate wrote:
So... OP, if you're still reading this thread...

Are you going to pick up GW products anyways? I know that you're a first time store owner, and GW products do still sell, and in some cases, sell well, but after this showing are you just going to drop it?

Also as a point of suggestion, I would take a copy of your invoices of product you've bought from other companies with the important details like credit card info etc... blacked out, and I would send these copies to GW with a hand written (or typed) letter explaining your situation and how appalled you were at their showing at the trade show, and because of this you felt it was an unwise business decision to stock GW products because you didn't want to deal with a company that didn't support it's stockists. Show them the nice highlighted sections on the invoice showing them how much money you spent on Company X's product and Company Y's game. Ship that off to Nottingham... If GW doesn't like 1 thing besides veteran gamers, it's being shown how much money they're not getting...


Sadly, I'm sifting through this mess.

I have played 40k since 1997, took a few years off to flop some cards, but I returned. I have stupid amounts of GW product in my personal collection, so I'm probably not going anywhere. We opened store last October and have generated at least 40 new 40k players in our store. I'm not at all happy with GW's attitude and the caliber of presentations they do. The secrecy and lack of informing independent retailers is beyond ridiculous. I won't do anything "unprofessional" as far as sending them receipts, but I will let my sales rep know that we may go in different direction in future.

If the monkeys at the controls in Britain either leave or are bought out, I hope someone will recognize the IP they have and expand into different areas of gaming.

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 insaniak wrote:
silent25 wrote:
In almost all cases, when GW would switch from metal to plastic, there would be a price reduction.

This was true for a time, but hasn't always been the case. There have been quite a few examples of plastics coming out at the same price as the metals they replaced (see Space Marine Terminators).


There's also the fact that the production costs for plastic are quite a bit lower than for metal once the moulding costs are accounted for ... and those start-up costs are absorbed by the previous sets. The material is cheaper, and casting less labour intensive. Shipping is also cheaper... which adds up to a considerable saving when you're looking at container loads at a time.


That is why I said almost all cases. The terminators was one of the few exceptions I can think of. And I am talking early 2000's. You can point to more recent stuff in the last few years, but the point I was making you normally saw a price reduction. Additionally, plastics had a higher up front cost initially. Metal models have higher mold and labor costs, but cheaper initial costs. If people weren't buying as many new models, you don't recoup those initial costs as fast.

Point I am making, people were comfortable with the metal prices. If GW had charged the same for all new plastics across the board, would we have seen the price hikes and other policies that started in the mid-2000's?
   
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 Sean_OBrien wrote:
JWhex wrote:
The point is they are in the top spot in a healthy market, thus the predictions of their imminent demise seems to me to be premature.


As my investor friends like to say, if a company can't grow in a growing industry they have structural problems.


Exactly. The hobby itself might have grown by 15% but GW grew like 6% by cutting costs. That is a pretty clear sign then aren't going to be in the top spot for long.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
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 Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

If the monkeys at the controls in Britain either leave or are bought out, I hope someone will recognize the IP they have and expand into different areas of gaming.


Be careful what you wish for. Kirby lead the initial takeover from Bryan Ansell. Per interviews with Rick Priestly, the investors that backed him immediately were demanding a return on their investment. Whoever backs an new takeover will likely do the same. You may see things like all of production being sacked in the UK and moved to Vietnam for cost savings and all non-profitable stores/battle bunkers be closed. And worse, during the production move there is no new material produced for several months. Even stores that don't rely heavily on GW product, if 5-10~% of your sales sudden disappears, that hurts. That can be the difference between keeping an extra employee or worse paying some bills.
   
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 insaniak wrote:
Shipping is also cheaper... which adds up to a considerable saving when you're looking at container loads at a time.
You sure about that? Being lighter would make aircraft freight cheaper, but actual ship (the thing that floats on water ) shipping is more dominated by space, which sprues would take up more (at least that's the way I understand it).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/10 05:42:21


 
   
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life.

 Kingsley wrote:
A lot of people seem to have misunderstood the Burger King vs. McDonalds comparison-- perhaps intentionally so. What I'm saying is this: The fundamental experience of collecting and playing 40k or WHFB is different to the experience of collecting and playing most other miniatures games on the market right now. I say this as someone who has collected and played many miniatures games, both GW and non-GW.

In 40k, you collect an army and are encouraged to "make it your own" with conversions, unique paint schemes, etc. You then fight against another army in a large-scale conflict involving multiple units, vehicles, etc. on both sides. The end result is a large battle between two individually customized forces-- this result is what is largely unique to 40k/WHFB. Other games in a similar space involve much less customization-- many, like Infinity, do not even have plastic models, which are key to allowing individual creativity on a whole-army level.

There is no game at present that encourages you to customize a large force in the same way that 40k and Fantasy do. While other games like Warmahordes, Infinity, and Malifaux can superficially be considered direct competitors with GW, in point of fact that is not the case-- the core experience of collecting and playing those games is fundamentally different from the core experience of collecting and playing 40k. I've seen postings for Warmahordes tournaments that don't allow conversions-- that would never fly for 40k.

GW has done a very good job of marketing "the Games Workshop hobby" as a complete experience. Now, they don't have a monopoly on it-- I remember playing Ætherverse back in the day and loving how it was even more of a customizable hobby experience than what GW had to offer-- but right now most of their competitors have not really been seriously challenging them on that front. For this reason, 40k and Fantasy seem to exist in a different "subgenre" of tabletop game, and one that, for better or for worse, GW owns at present.

 Morachi wrote:
I was told by the lad at the Brisbane Chermside store that if you wandered in with Balrog wings on a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant you were asked to leave. Now where is that fan/community support?


That was thanks to a licensing agreement that forbade mixing of Lord of the Rings and Warhammer/Warhammer 40k content. It was out of GW's hands.


Kings of War and Warpath by Mantic games. Both mass combat wargaming, with the encouragement to make your army your own. Hell Mantic has even left space in the game world deliberately so people can make up background!

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JWhex wrote:
GW survived a world wide very serious recession. They have the top selling line of table top miniatures in a market (USA) that grew 15% last year. Why do people think the end times are near for GW?

Any business can tank but GW has persisted at the top for decades. The value of the stock has increased even though sales have been flat. In general that means investors must think that in recent months GW is doing something correctly or are optimistic that GW is on track.

I get that GW does a lot of things that frustrate hobbyists. However, that frustration does not mean that they are not running a successful business. If GW does tank I think it would be a disaster for the tabletop miniature industry and set us back years.


They did survive a serious recession with some serious cost savings, but at least they did, whilst a few smaller gaming companies went under (I can't name any though). The thing with recessions is that hobby spending often increases as people seek more escapism. People may not have upgraded their car or house like they may have planned to, but will have been more likely to buy some small luxury goods to make themselves feel better.

It's also worth noting that the table top miniatures market is growing at a huge rate round the world, but almost none of that growth is coming from GW who have remained flat. That means that the growth is all happening in GW's competition, and if that trend continues at the same rate GW is eventually going to go from being the big company and default game to being a runner up. I'm not sure it'll drop into complete obscurity because there are still people playing with old rules/figures, but I can't see them remaining top dog forever.
   
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Herzlos wrote:

They did survive a serious recession with some serious cost savings, but at least they did, whilst a few smaller gaming companies went under (I can't name any though).


This is a false argument, GW themselves have stated that their core business is recession proof and this has been demonstrated by the fact that the hobby and most companies within the hobby have been growing constantly throughout the past years.

The only miniature wargaming company that I've even heard of going under was Rackham and that had absolutely nothing to do with any recession.
   
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Frostgrave

There have been a few others closed but most were cottage shops and may not have been recession based. Gaming is largely recession proof though, yes, so being able to survive it isn't necessarily a sign of success.
   
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 Old Man Ultramarine wrote:
Sadly, I'm sifting through this mess.

I have played 40k since 1997, took a few years off to flop some cards, but I returned. I have stupid amounts of GW product in my personal collection, so I'm probably not going anywhere. We opened store last October and have generated at least 40 new 40k players in our store. I'm not at all happy with GW's attitude and the caliber of presentations they do. The secrecy and lack of informing independent retailers is beyond ridiculous. I won't do anything "unprofessional" as far as sending them receipts, but I will let my sales rep know that we may go in different direction in future.


It's not unprofessional at all. You're simply showing them that because of reasons x, y, and z, you're no longer happy with their product, and company, are ordering less product down to no more product, and that you have shifted funds to companies a, b, and c. Thank them for the service they did provide, and move on. There was a poster in a similar thread that mentioned how he sent copies of his receipts to GW and they gave him a personal phone call.. This was a single person, not a store.

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 lord marcus wrote:
Kings of War and Warpath by Mantic games. Both mass combat wargaming, with the encouragement to make your army your own. Hell Mantic has even left space in the game world deliberately so people can make up background!


Those rules (if you can call them that) are largely made as a cover to prevent Mantic from being sued. I've never seen a single person play them and every review I've encountered has been negative.
   
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Kingsley, what is your take on the rules set, beyond the "Cover them from being sued"? have you ever played using their rules set?

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 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
 
   
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I'll counter Kingsley with, while I, too, have never seen anyone playing Kings of War or Warpath, and am not all that interested in them myself when there are so many other options out there, I've never read a negative review of Kings of War. Warpath, though... well, I've never read a review of Warpath, period.
   
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 RatBot wrote:
I'll counter Kingsley with, while I, too, have never seen anyone playing Kings of War or Warpath, and am not all that interested in them myself when there are so many other options out there, I've never read a negative review of Kings of War. Warpath, though... well, I've never read a review of Warpath, period.


In Warpath's defence, it is still in its beta stage. I played it at an Open Day, and enjoyed the system, though it took a little getting used to - though that was mainly shaking loose previous experience and approaching the rules with a clean brain.

I've read through the KoW rules, and they seem pretty solid - I suspect Kingsley's goggles kicked in again there...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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Yeah, in fact, if you google Kings of War Review the first few hits are either positive or "meh", which could be considered negative but he didn't hate game.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/620893/a-brief-review-of-kings-of-war-the-game

http://quirkworthy.com/2011/09/13/2nd-edition-kings-of-war-review-%E2%80%93-part-1/

http://quirkworthy.com/2011/09/14/2nd-edition-kings-of-war-review-%E2%80%93-part-2/ - the "meh" one.

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15753.phtml

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 21:09:51


 
   
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 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
Kingsley, what is your take on the rules set, beyond the "Cover them from being sued"? have you ever played using their rules set?


I've played Warpath but not Kings of War. Warpath seemed extremely incomplete, more like a pre-alpha version initial testing run than an actual ruleset. Unfortunately, many of the fundamental design elements were IMO ill-conceived, so I don't really see it getting better in later iterations unless they burn it down and start over. The people who I've spoken with about Kings of War say that it's the same thing but with a little more polish.
   
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@Kingsley.
Why do Mantic need rules to stop them being sued?

Generic fantasy tropes have been around for years, orcs , elves, dwarves, etc.
And futuristic human troops , along with fantasy tropes in space have been around ages too.

I thought Mantic were more about offering great value for money.And rules add value to their product range.


   
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Lanrak wrote:
@Kingsley.
Why do Mantic need rules to stop them being sued?

Generic fantasy tropes have been around for years, orcs , elves, dwarves, etc.
And futuristic human troops , along with fantasy tropes in space have been around ages too.

I thought Mantic were more about offering great value for money.And rules add value to their product range.




They don't. I have absolutely no idea where he got this from.

Wonder what "new" idea's he'll get from the threads started tomorrow.


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Lanrak wrote:
@Kingsley.
Why do Mantic need rules to stop them being sued?


They don't need them, but they provide a good cover story for getting their products distributed. People take a dim view of "we sell GW knockoffs" and a much better view of "we sell models for our own miniatures games," even if those games just so happen to be in the same scale as GW games, represent the same archetypes, and are derivative of GW designs and concepts in every respect.

When Mantic's secret original race was "Skaven in space" and their awesome new game was "Blood Bowl in space" the writing on the wall became very clear to me.
   
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Louisiana

 Kingsley wrote:
Lanrak wrote:
@Kingsley.
Why do Mantic need rules to stop them being sued?


They don't need them, but they provide a good cover story for getting their products distributed. People take a dim view of "we sell GW knockoffs" and a much better view of "we sell models for our own miniatures games," even if those games just so happen to be in the same scale as GW games, represent the same archetypes, and are derivative of GW designs and concepts in every respect.

When Mantic's secret original race was "Skaven in space" and their awesome new game was "Blood Bowl in space" the writing on the wall became very clear to me.


Mantic was started by folks from the GW design studio that the company shoved out because they wanted to go in creative directions GW was adverse to, such as continuing to actively support specialist games like Blood Bowl. Mantic, in my eyes, is doing large model count fantasy and sci-fi table top wargaming the way they believe it should be done.

I detest the assertion that Mantic is "knocking off" GW. Mantic is a company founded on creative and business ideas GW rejected. GW is not the end all be all of fantasy and sci-fi table top miniature wargaming. GW is just now one of the biggest players in that market. The mere fact that GW has a large market share does not mean that GW owns the industry.

In fact, back in the day, GW was essentially what Mantic is today. GW saw other companies enjoying success in the fantasy table top miniature wargaming market and decided to do what those companies were doing. GW knocked together its fantasy world out of a slew of tongue in cheek "rip offs" of other people's fiction and used it as a vehicle to sell fantasy table top wargaming miniatures. GW has since almost completely abandoned the way it used to do business and sloughed off the creative minds that helped to make GW the success that it is now squandering today.

Dreadball is not a Blood Bowl ripoff. It is Mantic's Blood Bowl-type product. Every GD thing about Dreadball is different from Blood Bowl except that it is a humorous fantasy sports game backed up by continual support. Did GW create the concept of a humorous fantasy sports game backed up by continued support? I really do not know, but probably not. And if GW did create that concept, it is not something that anyone can own.

GW does not want to do it. There is a market for it. Someone filled it with a unique, creative product.

I do not understand why someone can sit up on a high horse and deride that. It would be a darn sad world indeed if the market were so constrained that an idea for a product that a company did not come up with and no longer even uses prevented anyone else from ever doing anything remotely similar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 22:12:46


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Yes...because anthropomorphic rats is an original GW idea...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 22:11:04


 
   
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 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Yes...because anthropomorphic rats is an original GW idea...


Of course. Just ask Kingsley to find some examples and he'll conveniently ignore Master Splinter and Roland Rat.


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 Grimtuff wrote:
 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Yes...because anthropomorphic rats is an original GW idea...


Of course. Just ask Kingsley to find some examples and he'll conveniently ignore Master Splinter and Roland Rat.



Also the entire series of Redwall novels. I haven't read them since middle school, but IIRC the primary antagonists in many of them were rats. Who walked on two legs and talked.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/04/10 23:18:40


 
   
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 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Yes...because anthropomorphic rats is an original GW idea...


Anthropomorphic rats are certainly not a unique concept. The "Veer-myn," however, have many of the exact same æsthetic elements as GW's Skaven. In fact, they could be used as counts-as for some Skaven units, despite nominally existing in a very different setting. Hence the claims of Mantic producing GW knockoffs-- it's very clear that many of their products are designed to be used in place of GW models for GW's games.
   
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Myrtle Creek, OR

I'll address the Mantic discussion points really quickly.

KoW is a solid fantasy game. It streamlines stuff from WHFB (7th was my favorite edition) and you can play it with your GW/whoever's models. It plays a lot quicker; allows you to ally (you may be able to do that in WHFB 8th?); and IMO is a cleaner set of rules.

You can get the entire rule set plus all the army lists in a hard cover book for $35 or you can download the rules and the army lists (it's missing the magic items list) and print out for free. The $35 was cheaper to get everything in one pkg and without having to buy new print cartridges.

WarPath 2.0 is a much better game than the first version. It's still very much in playtest mode and needs a goodly sum of work to be a final product.

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 Polonius wrote:
This seems to strengthen the idea that GW has moved from mostly neglecting independent shops to complete neglect. Sad to see.

Admittedly, selling to salesmen is the hardest kind of pitch, but there are a lot of things a company can do to smooth over a fiasco like the tau release. GW is doing none of them...


My LGS has completely told GW to feth off. They got tired of the way GW is treating retailers. He dropped the prices on his stock to about 1/2 retail, got rid of it all, and filled the former GW section with WM/H & Infinity stuff.

It should be noted that the owner is a long time 40k player, has numerous armies with minis spanning back to Rogue Trader days.

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 Kingsley wrote:
 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Yes...because anthropomorphic rats is an original GW idea...


Anthropomorphic rats are certainly not a unique concept. The "Veer-myn," however, have many of the exact same æsthetic elements as GW's Skaven. In fact, they could be used as counts-as for some Skaven units, despite nominally existing in a very different setting. Hence the claims of Mantic producing GW knockoffs-- it's very clear that many of their products are designed to be used in place of GW models for GW's games.


So you're criticising Mantic for choosing to do an SF race that GW don't do, because they could be used as counts as in their games. That's pretty dumb, as is making a fuss about them doing a football style game set in the future because its like GW's one set in fantasy, and which they don't support anyway. Mantic aren't the first company to do space rats. Perhaps you'd like to complain about them doing Space Dwaves too, as GW don't do them either but as they could be used for GW games they are 'knock offs'. It seems to me that they want to tap into the same market as GW, but are making distinctly different products, specifically offering races that GW don't do. Yet even this counts as GW 'knock offs' because they could be used in each others games.

And you ask why people call you a white knight.
   
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Honestly some of the reaching in this thread makes me wonder if it's just not masterful trolling, or just flat-out satire. "Sci-Fi Rats in a future space setting? I'll claim they're rip-offs of GWS fantasy/medieval settings rats". They both have tails, right? Trololol!.

Either way, at some point it's just a rolling punchline, really.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 23:01:33


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