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 BoomWolf wrote:

4-Hammerheads lost multi-trackers? yea, it sucks. but you know as well as I do that with new railgun price, and the improved ion cannon, it would have been OP with it.
And its still pretty damn decent without it, its a cheap tank with a good gun that can get into very, very awkward positions. show me a leman russ jumping across rooftops. (and sensor spins allow you to do that with no risk!)

What, Hammerhead OP if it had Multi-tracker? I guess Riptide is OP too because it has more firepower and more mobility than Hammerhead.

Why does Tau codex even have tanks? It's obvious that Riptide does everything better, so why not just put them on Heavy support too. Lets face it, nobody would take Hammerheads if Riptides were an option.

Tau codex sucks. It's not a WEAK codex, it's a poor codex.

My current Tau army has 3 tanks and 2 Riptides. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill with your tank complaints. Sure, they got slightly worse in some specific applications-- but they got so much better in general that dissing them seems silly.

 Kingsley wrote:
My current Tau army has 3 tanks and 2 Riptides. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill with your tank complaints. Sure, they got slightly worse in some specific applications-- but they got so much better in general that dissing them seems silly.

How did they get better? Cheaper is not better.

um marklights got better
they got cheaper

i think thats it?

Backfire wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
My current Tau army has 3 tanks and 2 Riptides. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill with your tank complaints. Sure, they got slightly worse in some specific applications-- but they got so much better in general that dissing them seems silly.

How did they get better? Cheaper is not better.

Huge buffs to SMS, huge buff to ion turret, better benefits from markerlight support, addition of Longstrike, overall revamp of the Skyray, and cheaper is better. If I can now take a Hammerhead where previously I couldn't because it cost too much to be viable, it's a better unit. Imagine a Hammerhead that was AV14 4 HP and had a heavy 2 Railgun, but cost 600 points. In practice, the current Hammerhead would be better for obvious reasons.

Backfire wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
My current Tau army has 3 tanks and 2 Riptides. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill with your tank complaints. Sure, they got slightly worse in some specific applications-- but they got so much better in general that dissing them seems silly.

How did they get better? Cheaper is not better.

No, you're right, because a railhead in the old codex for 140 points is sooooo much worse than a railhead in this new codex with Longstrike for 170 points right? I mean, it's not like Longstrike adds +1 BS, the ability to overwatch, or give the tank Tank Hunters, turning it into the one of best anti-tank weapon in the game, right? And that boost to SMS was meaningless too. I mean, an extra 6" of range? pashaw. And please, Kingsley, just because you can now use Markerlights to boost snap shots and overwatch doesn't make this tank any better. It can't move as a Fast vehicle anymore, so you might as well just burn the model.

And that Riptide, man. It can do EVERYTHING the Railhead can. Like fire an S10 AP1 weapon with Tank Hunter. I mean, their Ion Accelerator is by far the best weapon in the game, amirite?

 Kingsley wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
My current Tau army has 3 tanks and 2 Riptides. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill with your tank complaints. Sure, they got slightly worse in some specific applications-- but they got so much better in general that dissing them seems silly.

How did they get better? Cheaper is not better.

Huge buffs to SMS, huge buff to ion turret, better benefits from markerlight support, addition of Longstrike, overall revamp of the Skyray, and cheaper is better. If I can now take a Hammerhead where previously I couldn't because it cost too much to be viable, it's a better unit.

Cost of Hammerhead was never an obstacle. If it was not taken, it was because Broadside was often even better for the role and HS slots were precious. Not because of points cost. I never saw a Tau army which didn't have all HS slots taken. I routinely had two Hammerheads even at 1000 point level (sometimes Hammerhead and Skyray, just for laughs). And lets see how much cheaper it actually is: old codex: Railhead+Burst cannons+Disruption pod = 155. New codex: Railhead+Disruption pod+submunition=145 points. Woo hoo, a 10 points drop, and loss of option taking a more expensive, but more capable tank.

And what about those improvements? Sorry, by your logic Ionhead got worse, not better, because it's now more expensive. I can't afford an Ionhead now where I previously could have! Sure, it's got Blast now. Too bad nobody ever takes the Ionhead for exact same reasons nobody ever took Ionhead in the previous book. Longstrike, upgrade character on a tank which still can't move & shoot. Nobody ever uses Pask or Chronus, I fail to see why Longstrike would be more popular. Skyray, only thing it has going for it is 6-missile Alpha strike against a flyer. Other than that, Broadsides outperform it in both anti-aircraft and anti-ground role. Skyray is hurt even more than Hammerhead was because of loss of Target lock and Multi-tracker, because it doesn't have weapons range Hammerhead does.

SMS got better...until you realize that you no longer have Target locks. Which means that most of the time when your Hammerhead or Skyray is shooting at high-priority tough target (which they have to, they're probably only ones in your army which can do the job), that awesome SMS is sitting idle. So there is no net gain.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McNinja wrote:
No, you're right, because a railhead in the old codex for 140 points is sooooo much worse than a railhead in this new codex with Longstrike for 170 points right? I mean, it's not like Longstrike adds +1 BS, the ability to overwatch, or give the tank Tank Hunters, turning it into the one of best anti-tank weapon in the game, right? And that boost to SMS was meaningless too. I mean, an extra 6" of range? pashaw. And please, Kingsley, just because you can now use Markerlights to boost snap shots and overwatch doesn't make this tank any better. It can't move as a Fast vehicle anymore, so you might as well just burn the model.

Letsee. Old Railhead+Burst cannons + Multi-tracker + Target lock + Disruption pod = 170 points. Can move 12", shoot and split fire from Burst cannons and main gun. Yes, I flat out say that tank is as good or better than Longstrike Railhead. And I can take three of them, I can only take one Longstrike.

But let me ask a question: what was the POINT of removing MT and TL from tanks? Why was it done? Because I seriously can't see any. It was completely pointless nerf.

Backfire wrote:Longstrike, upgrade character on a tank which still can't move & shoot. Nobody ever uses Pask or Chronus, I fail to see why Longstrike would be more popular.

Cronos is more expensive for less gain, you don't see him giving tank hunters, he only gives +1 BS and ignoring shaken and stunned, which is less common in this edition with further reduces his worth. Pask isn't the best either, he is only BS4 and the weapons aren't complimentary enough to make him worth taking.

Also, why can't you move and shoot? You do understand that you can move 6" and fire a weapon right? Which is all you need in Longstrike's Hammerhead as the Secondary Weapon System isn't as important.

I like the look of this book, i won't be taking any riptides, and i really want to have some Ionheads, unfortunately the Railheads are beter for me as i need some long range AT which broadsides can no longer provide.

In my 1850, my HS is filled of 2 Railheads and a Skyray, the Skyray can either act independantly or use the Markerlights to help my Hammerheads get rid of cover or shoot at BS5, it can also help me to hit flyers with them, and flyers won't like S10 AP1 guns!

 GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Also, why can't you move and shoot? You do understand that you can move 6" and fire a weapon right? Which is all you need in Longstrike's Hammerhead as the Secondary Weapon System isn't as important.

IME, 6" movement is often insufficient. It's usually not enough to open up the angle to enemy side armour, not enough to move over terrain pieces, and certainly not enough to move to avoid incoming assault. Plus, ability to fire secondaries is actually very important. By the time enemy gets within about 18", you need every gun you got. In case of Skyray, it's even worse since you don't have "main gun", meaning that any movement has you firing at just one of your weapons at full BS.

Backfire wrote:
And lets see how much cheaper it actually is: old codex: Railhead+Burst cannons+Disruption pod = 155. New codex: Railhead+Disruption pod+submunition=145 points. Woo hoo, a 10 points drop, and loss of option taking a more expensive, but more capable tank.

Why take a disruption pod in the new Codex? 15 points is too much IMO. At 125/130 points (depending on turret), the Hammerhead looks a lot nicer.

I wouldn't say the codex is bad, it just feels rather... incomplete. We really could have used more troops and more troop options. A new transport kit would have been amazing as the devilfish doesn't really match up with Firewarriors at all. A cheap (points wise) open topped transport for pathfinders and firewarriors, would have sold well even if it was priced the same as the devilfish. We really only got two new units with a couple fine cast models thrown in. Pathfinders and Broadsides just got redone, but the Broadside got redone in an insane way (making it effectively a MC in base size, dollar cost, and model size yet being T4).

However I think things did get better. The one problem I used to have playing was dealing with high model count marine armies. Now I can bring so many effective AP2 and AP3 large blasts that it's easier for me to clear paths/objectives and fend off advancing MEQ/TEQ. Because of that it makes Kroot coming in from back table more effective. It makes it more viable to leave suits in reserve to deepstrike in melta range of tanks.

I am underwhelmed with a lot of it, but it does allow for a more aggressive play style. That said, I think Vetock should be taken into the streets and pelted with Devilfish until he says a point cost that makes sense.

 Kingsley wrote:

Backfire wrote:
And lets see how much cheaper it actually is: old codex: Railhead+Burst cannons+Disruption pod = 155. New codex: Railhead+Disruption pod+submunition=145 points. Woo hoo, a 10 points drop, and loss of option taking a more expensive, but more capable tank.

Why take a disruption pod in the new Codex? 15 points is too much IMO. At 125/130 points (depending on turret), the Hammerhead looks a lot nicer.

When you can take limited number of tanks which play critical role in your army, it makes very little sense to compromise with their survivability just to save few points so you could take one or two more Fire Warriors. Again, cheaper doesn't always mean better.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I wouldn't say the codex is bad, it just feels rather... incomplete. We really could have used more troops and more troop options. A new transport kit would have been amazing as the devilfish doesn't really match up with Firewarriors at all. A cheap (points wise) open topped transport for pathfinders and firewarriors, would have sold well even if it was priced the same as the devilfish. We really only got two new units with a couple fine cast models thrown in. Pathfinders and Broadsides just got redone, but the Broadside got redone in an insane way (making it effectively a MC in base size, dollar cost, and model size yet being T4).

However I think things did get better. The one problem I used to have playing was dealing with high model count marine armies. Now I can bring so many effective AP2 and AP3 large blasts that it's easier for me to clear paths/objectives and fend off advancing MEQ/TEQ. Because of that it makes Kroot coming in from back table more effective. It makes it more viable to leave suits in reserve to deepstrike in melta range of tanks.

I am underwhelmed with a lot of it, but it does allow for a more aggressive play style. That said, I think Vetock should be taken into the streets and pelted with Devilfish until he says a point cost that makes sense.

Sounds a bit like wish listing in regards to an open-topped Transport. Our stuff is quite fragile (sometimes) as it is, open topped transport?! We don't need to assault from them and I can't imagine a bunch of Firewarriors firing out of a vehicle ala Dark Eldar raider-eqsue tactics. The Devilfish would have been nice if it was slightly cheaper but for whatever reason they deemed it better to keep it at the original.

More troop options? I disagree with that BUT I think taking Darkstrider opening Pathfinders as troops would have been interesting. Not very competitive but interesting for fluff players. Most Armies have two or three. Not sure what else we could have really? Maybe an Honour Guard Firewarrior-esque squad? Similar to the old ones but maybe an option for us. Still, it's nothing I'm missing and in my last 6 games (all won) I haven't missed another troop choice.

Overall I am very happy with the Codex and I have had the most fun in 40k with this new book than I have for months and that includes using Necrons (Auto win army most weeks, very boring and bland to play)

Open-topped has too many advantages to offset the disadvantages. I would almost always prefer an open-topped transport to a closed one. The penaties for open-topped need to be more severe: like you can shoot the guys in the transport instead of the transport itself.

 Kingsley wrote:

Backfire wrote:
And lets see how much cheaper it actually is: old codex: Railhead+Burst cannons+Disruption pod = 155. New codex: Railhead+Disruption pod+submunition=145 points. Woo hoo, a 10 points drop, and loss of option taking a more expensive, but more capable tank.

Why take a disruption pod in the new Codex? 15 points is too much IMO. At 125/130 points (depending on turret), the Hammerhead looks a lot nicer.

this actually made me laugh

if "only" being able to move as far as most other tanks and effectively ignoring terrain plus being to move over units is not enough you can keep the gun drones and use them as an assault screen whilst your bs5 hammerhead (with no markerlight support) picks on a vehicle with a str10 ap1 gun that re-rolls armour pen.

against the previous codex i didnt mind the odds of running a land raider full of stuff into a tau frontline. that hammerhead with a 4+cover save (for moving with its disruption pods) is quite terrifying..... let alone just deploying it behind a ruin and grabbing a 3+cover.



the only thing i dont like about the new codex (assuming they eventually errata the bomber) is kroot..... and that is purely becuase i hate the models

 gr1m_dan wrote:
Sounds a bit like wish listing in regards to an open-topped Transport. Our stuff is quite fragile (sometimes) as it is, open topped transport?! We don't need to assault from them and I can't imagine a bunch of Firewarriors firing out of a vehicle ala Dark Eldar raider-eqsue tactics. The Devilfish would have been nice if it was slightly cheaper but for whatever reason they deemed it better to keep it at the original.

But units with unit strength shooting need open topped vehicles, like DE raiders and Necron Ghost arks. It fits their unit type. Firewarriors do nothing but shoot, and sticking them into a transport that only puts out the same kind of shooting as firewarriors just makes it a wase. It's not wish listing, it's what makes sense. Marines are well armored and get cheap transports with firing points. Ig are weak and get decently priced APCs with firing points. Necrons are well armored and get skimmer AV13 transports with decent weaponry plus open topped on a unit that is extremely survivable as is. Instead Firewarriors get the exact same transport as before in an edition where transports aren't as good because they can't be scoring. It's just silly that they kept it that way, especially when they give more buffs for firewarriors so they're better left out of transports in just about every scenario.

More troop options? I disagree with that BUT I think taking Darkstrider opening Pathfinders as troops would have been interesting. Not very competitive but interesting for fluff players. Most Armies have two or three. Not sure what else we could have really? Maybe an Honour Guard Firewarrior-esque squad? Similar to the old ones but maybe an option for us. Still, it's nothing I'm missing and in my last 6 games (all won) I haven't missed another troop choice.

I know Necrons only get two choices and SOB only have 1 I believe, but how many armies get to unlock units as troops? I know CSM has a total of 7 units that can be troop choices and they're all pretty good. And your personal win/loss record doesn't mean the codex lacks options and variety. Even just the ability to take Pathfinders as troops would have been interesting, or atleast make a unit scoring since Tau are somewhat at a disadvantage to some of the other armies with better options, Necrons being the prime example but CSM with plaguemarine troops and DAs scoring bikes are pretty good as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrspadge wrote:
if "only" being able to move as far as most other tanks and effectively ignoring terrain

I'm tired of point this out. The Hammerhead body is 5.5" in length. That means you better be right up on a piece of terrain that's only .5" thick if you want to "effectively ignore" it and still fire. Same thing with moving over units. Anything thicker than a conga line is probably out of the question. So yeah. I think it's kind of a big deal because now I can only side shuffle and be able to fire unless I want to move forward and over something, then not be able to shoot. I could just hide it in the open with a clear path forward and hope my opponent doesn't go first.

Sounds like fighting against Tau hasn't changed that much except fliers are more dead and Land Raiders are less dead. Tau troops aren't casting grey hunters or plague marines off an objective, but then neither are regular meqs. And we pay more for the privilege of failing to beat high-end troops.

My friend has a Tau army. Maybe I'll monkey around with it some and see what I think.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
[...]


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrspadge wrote:
if "only" being able to move as far as most other tanks and effectively ignoring terrain

I'm tired of point this out. The Hammerhead body is 5.5" in length. That means you better be right up on a piece of terrain that's only .5" thick if you want to "effectively ignore" it and still fire. Same thing with moving over units. Anything thicker than a conga line is probably out of the question. So yeah. I think it's kind of a big deal because now I can only side shuffle and be able to fire unless I want to move forward and over something, then not be able to shoot. I could just hide it in the open with a clear path forward and hope my opponent doesn't go first.

The problem with the Conga line is that the tank is also a skimmer, so it's on a skimmer base which raises it up, and the majority of the tank's frame is pretty high up (turret, main body, and engines). It'll take more than a conga line to really give it a cover save.

You say that it's ok to land in terrain, but I was replying to your comment on how there is no way to "clear" terrain and fire the weapons due to the size. And I thought a non-fast vehicle moving more than 6" couldn't fire any weapons. The Leman Russ is heavy, right? So doesn't that mean it can always move 6" and fire all weapons as normal?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The problem with the Conga line is that the tank is also a skimmer, so it's on a skimmer base which raises it up, and the majority of the tank's frame is pretty high up (turret, main body, and engines). It'll take more than a conga line to really give it a cover save.

You say that it's ok to land in terrain, but I was replying to your comment on how there is no way to "clear" terrain and fire the weapons due to the size. And I thought a non-fast vehicle moving more than 6" couldn't fire any weapons. The Leman Russ is heavy, right? So doesn't that mean it can always move 6" and fire all weapons as normal?

if you move up to 6, you can shoot 1 weapon normally and snapfire EVERYTHING else.
over 6", only snapfire.

fast vehicles it goes to everything up to 6", 1 gun and snapfire up to 12", nothing beond that i believe (though you might still get to snapfire)

leman russes have a rule which lets them fire an additional gun to their main weapon (go that 1 bs3 heavy bolter!!!).

so you can creep up to the 1st floor of a ruin and blast away, just your drones/sms/bc will be snap firing. plus if fire warriors wont do it... how about drones

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The problem with the Conga line is that the tank is also a skimmer, so it's on a skimmer base which raises it up, and the majority of the tank's frame is pretty high up (turret, main body, and engines). It'll take more than a conga line to really give it a cover save.

You say that it's ok to land in terrain, but I was replying to your comment on how there is no way to "clear" terrain and fire the weapons due to the size. And I thought a non-fast vehicle moving more than 6" couldn't fire any weapons. The Leman Russ is heavy, right? So doesn't that mean it can always move 6" and fire all weapons as normal?

Alas, firing Ordance weapons force other weapons of the tank fire only Snap shots. So this makes for example LRBT pretty bad under present ruleset. OTOH, some other Leman Russ variants with no Ordnance weapons can move 6" and shoot everything.

You still wouldn't be able to move 6.1" and fire the template though, which is the main reason for even taking the Hammerhead now. But increasing snapfire up to BS4 for a single shot railgun would require 3 marker tokens, which is 6 pathfinders which are considerably more squishy and easy to take down than a Hammerhead. If you go with the marker drone loaded Commander, it's now two units just to bring one unit back to it's orginal state pre update. The easier option will probably just be to give it sensor spines and land where you please.

I'm not saying it's a bad tank, I'm just saying it's far from mobile and because of it's large size it's not as easy to hide as Imperial vehicles.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
And I thought a non-fast vehicle moving more than 6" couldn't fire any weapons.

You can still snap fire over 6". So Hammerheads are not crippled because they can still move 12" and then waste a bunch of markerlights to get back to BS 4. And of course we won't account for the cost of those markerlights when arguing that the Hammerhead got a price drop...

 Peregrine wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
And I thought a non-fast vehicle moving more than 6" couldn't fire any weapons.

You can still snap fire over 6". So Hammerheads are not crippled because they can still move 12" and then waste a bunch of markerlights to get back to BS 4. And of course we won't account for the cost of those markerlights when arguing that the Hammerhead got a price drop...

You need six Pathfinders to increase Hammerhead's BS to 4, those Pathfinders cost 66 points...

And use up a Fast Attack slot. They are also fairly easy to kill off, so lose pathfinders and tanks are now handicapped. Giving an opponent two bonuses for the price of one kill.

It's why I hate the idea of synergy with Tau. It's not synergy, it's like a clock where every gear is tuned to work with the others. However when you remove one cog, you don't have a clock anymore.

Yes hammer heads got a nerf. But if you guys try the new codex you will find that tau has many things that make up for it. I don't feel the need to run a bunch of hammerheads, not because they are not good but because there are other places to spend the points now. If you look at power level of all units everything is very well balance (except vespid who are still unplayable). And against everyone else we are pretty strong, much stronger than before to be sure. A page or so ago I linked all the dakka battle reports that had new tau in them. There were 12 reports, we won 8, lost 3, and tied 1. This is with a codex that is only two weeks old and people who are still brewing lists and deciding what they want to bring to the field.

 lambsandlions wrote:
I don't feel the need to fun a bunch of hammerheads, not because they are not good but because there are other places to spend the points now.

Which is fine for you. Some of us liked the old Tau tank list, and it is NOT fine that the list no longer functions. I played Tau specifically because the Hammerhead was so awesome, now I have to play the same all-battlesuit army just like everyone else. The fact that I'll probably win more does not make up for the fact that I'm not going to enjoy the army as much anymore.

(Well, more accurately I'm just not going to buy any Tau stuff.)

You know I was talking about Nobs. Been long enough I honestly forgot, lol. As for the no more fearless wounds, yes that was BY FAR the best change.

And I've actually gotten the Tau codex now, and in seriousness, it really is Codex: Markerlights, but I'm ok with this. I don't have any fond memories of playing them before, or any at all for that matter, so I'm fine with it.

 Peregrine wrote:


Which is fine for you. Some of us liked the old Tau tank list, and it is NOT fine that the list no longer functions. I played Tau specifically because the Hammerhead was so awesome, now I have to play the same all-battlesuit army just like everyone else. The fact that I'll probably win more does not make up for the fact that I'm not going to enjoy the army as much anymore.

(Well, more accurately I'm just not going to buy any Tau stuff.)

So we are not arguing that tau is bad, we are arguing that one aspect that you enjoyed is gone? There is nothing that anyone can say that will change things. As much as we say the hammer head is still a very good tank nothing we can say will give it 12'' movement back. But again, this is just you and a few other people that are having the problem. A lot more people seem to be enjoying the codex. And to be honest I think if you put your feelings aside and tried the new codex out you would find something you like.

Just a few cents worth of opinion from someone who has played against the new Tau.

It was a small game, only 1250 points, and I was using a scout heavy crimson fist army. I was a little surprised by how much my opponent got to field with only 1250 ponts. A hammerhead, two broadsides, a riptide, 3 crisis suits and commander, and 28 fire warriors, plus lots of drones with each squad. I had 20 scouts (one HtH, one sniper), 10 tactical mariens, 10 sternguard in a rhino, Pedro, a Stormtalon, and 5 devastators with missile launchers.

The hammerhead, broadsides, and Riptide made a pretty solid base of fire that I really had a hard time dealing with. The 2+ save on the Riptide, combined with it being a T6 multiwound monsterous creature, made it very tough to deal with. Snipers and hellfire rounds managed to only put 2 wounds on it the whole game, but admittedly, I finally just stopped wasting shots on it and focused on killing all of his firewarriors after turn 1.

The various missile pods are tough to deal with just because its such a huge volley of fire, especially the ones that do no require LOS and ignore cover.

Firewarriors are kind of squishy, and while the volleys of fire can be intimidating, BS3 cuts some of the effectiveness. Also, markerlights aren't the game breaker so many seem to think they are. The basic markerlight drones generally don't hit very often, and 15 points to put it on a firewarrior squad leader is a bit pricey, but then, that's how its all balanced out. At first reading, I thought markerlights were going to be a very broken aspect of the army, but in practice, they proved to be somewhat ineffective in his army build (he split the difference and took half markerlight drones and half missile drones). I guess there is something to the whole "Play the game before you form an opinion" line of thinking!