Tau, a realists review(Or how I learned to stop worrying and to wait another 8 years)

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**Miri**

ClassicCarraway wrote:
Just a few cents worth of opinion from someone who has played against the new Tau.

It was a small game, only 1250 points, and I was using a scout heavy crimson fist army. I was a little surprised by how much my opponent got to field with only 1250 ponts. A hammerhead, two broadsides, a riptide, 3 crisis suits and commander, and 28 fire warriors, plus lots of drones with each squad. I had 20 scouts (one HtH, one sniper), 10 tactical mariens, 10 sternguard in a rhino, Pedro, a Stormtalon, and 5 devastators with missile launchers.

The hammerhead, broadsides, and Riptide made a pretty solid base of fire that I really had a hard time dealing with. The 2+ save on the Riptide, combined with it being a T6 multiwound monsterous creature, made it very tough to deal with. Snipers and hellfire rounds managed to only put 2 wounds on it the whole game, but admittedly, I finally just stopped wasting shots on it and focused on killing all of his firewarriors after turn 1.

The various missile pods are tough to deal with just because its such a huge volley of fire, especially the ones that do no require LOS and ignore cover.

Firewarriors are kind of squishy, and while the volleys of fire can be intimidating, BS3 cuts some of the effectiveness. Also, markerlights aren't the game breaker so many seem to think they are. The basic markerlight drones generally don't hit very often, and 15 points to put it on a firewarrior squad leader is a bit pricey, but then, that's how its all balanced out. At first reading, I thought markerlights were going to be a very broken aspect of the army, but in practice, they proved to be somewhat ineffective in his army build (he split the difference and took half markerlight drones and half missile drones). I guess there is something to the whole "Play the game before you form an opinion" line of thinking!

Because of the lack of Networked Markerlights available now it is generally accepted to take twice as many Pathfinders as ML hits you want on a target. If you are going to do Markerlight Drones then you pretty much have to do a Mark'O commander (Crisis Suit Commander with a Drone Controller, weapons and a target lock so it can shoot at something different then the Marker Drones) with the unit. I have been fielding two units of Pathfinders with 6 to 8 models (Bonded Knives and a Shas'Ui for leader ship tests) in them for my Markerlight needs.

**Lysenis**

Having seen the codex in work on 5-6 games now, with people using Riptides, Ionheads, Missilesides, Railsides, Hammerheads, and the works, all I have seen is demolition of some of the best Marine, Necron, CSM, DE and eldar armies out there.

I live in Portland Oregon and and happen to play in an area where in regionals our guys get in the top rather often yet they are having issues with Tau due to their effectiveness at being so versatile.

Tell me, can you actually predict what a Tau player will bring? Can you actually come in going against a tau player having that "rock beats scissors" list? Currently. . . no.

**Lumipon**

^

What works against MEQ works against Tau, maybe with the exception of the Riptide.

Lots of high S low AP shots, instagibbing suits and blowing up tanks.

I mean, it's not going to be that easy, but you can say for sure that a tau army will have Crisis suits and tanks.

Then again this might be as obvious a statement as "an army will have units in it".

**felixcat**

Because of the lack of Networked Markerlights available now it is generally accepted to take twice as many Pathfinders as ML hits you want on a target. If you are going to do Markerlight Drones then you pretty much have to do a Mark'O commander (Crisis Suit Commander with a Drone Controller, weapons and a target lock so it can shoot at something different then the Marker Drones) with the unit. I have been fielding two units of Pathfinders with 6 to 8 models (Bonded Knives and a Shas'Ui for leader ship tests) in them for my Markerlight needs.

This. I have a decent amount of markerlights in my list (10 drone squad, crisis with 2 markerdrones, Mark'O with two marker drones, 2 sky rays). This is what I'm using as my main markerlight source:

Commander Mark'O, Iridium Battle Suit, Drone Controller, Target Lock, Twin Linked Missile Pod, 2 Marker Drones
10 Markerlight Drones

It is a large chunk of points ... 307 to be exact ... but it is very effective. I found pathfinders much too fragile. But I suppose there is a case for both approaches.

Tell me, can you actually predict what a Tau player will bring? Can you actually come in going against a tau player having that "rock beats scissors" list? Currently. . . no.

No there is no established tournament list for Tau presently. My test list (five games played) has riptides and sky rays and no broadsides or hammerheads. I don't use an AGL nor do I use pathfinders. I do use piranhas ... yes, I know they are not quite as good as they once were but 50 points for essentially a landspeeder with melta is not terrible at all. I have issues with my Tau. I have not played them in awhile and in their previous incarnation they really were used more as allies ... played them twice in 6ed as a stand alone force. So I question wether I can succeed as a standalone force with the new codex. There are glimmers of hope. Ethereal certainly helps my troops. We do have decent anti-flyer and decent defense against reserves and DS. Do I need allies again and if so can I make a better allied list without Tau? I truly want to play my Tau ... I invested in doing up two riptides and two sky rays. I don't want them sitting on the shelf. I can certainly beat some very competitive builds but I've struggled against other builds that are not to my mind top tier (deamons/nids). Go figure.

**Jancoran**

Lumipon wrote:
^

What works against MEQ works against Tau, maybe with the exception of the Riptide.

Lots of high S low AP shots, instagibbing suits and blowing up tanks.

I mean, it's not going to be that easy, but you can say for sure that a tau army will have Crisis suits and tanks.

Then again this might be as obvious a statement as "an army will have units in it".

My current build has neither Crisis suits nor Hammerheads... Though I am considering a skyray.

**Lysenis**

I know a guy that runs just the commander and a sac squad of Crisis suits, oh and missilesides. He so far is undefeated with thislist but then again he is the guy I pointed too when people said Tau sucked. Before the new codex he was tearing apart great players on the reg. . .

**felixcat**

Generally, I like the shift in how the army can be fielded--we can take a lot more units that are useful, we have units that interact with each other better, and generally it seems like even more fun to play. I don't feel tied in to a single build yet at all.

@ jancoran
Finished a small three game tourney yesterday without a loss. I used only two sky rays in my HS slot - no suits or railheads. I also used piranhas ... good lord I must be silly. Funny thing ... I ended up winning all three games. I'm not taking taking this as a definitive endorsement though. I played no IG ( which I feel will be the Tau nemesis) and the daemon list I played needed allies which might have swayed the ourtcome (pure daemons are okay but way to random).

**Lumipon**

Jancoran wrote:
Lumipon wrote:
^

What works against MEQ works against Tau, maybe with the exception of the Riptide.

Lots of high S low AP shots, instagibbing suits and blowing up tanks.

I mean, it's not going to be that easy, but you can say for sure that a tau army will have Crisis suits and tanks.

Then again this might be as obvious a statement as "an army will have units in it".

My current build has neither Crisis suits nor Hammerheads... Though I am considering a skyray.

Is it Riptides instead of Crises and Broadsides instead of tanks?

Or let me rephrase: Please share :3

**Jancoran**

felixcat wrote:

@ jancoran
Finished a small three game tourney yesterday without a loss. I used only two sky rays in my HS slot - no suits or railheads. I also used piranhas ... good lord I must be silly. Funny thing ... I ended up winning all three games. I'm not taking taking this as a definitive endorsement though. I played no IG ( which I feel will be the Tau nemesis) and the daemon list I played needed allies which might have swayed the ourtcome (pure daemons are okay but way to random).

Fantastic! The person I tabled was Ig as I mentioned. You'll do fine against them.

Today I faced MechDar with Dark Eldar allies in a 2K contest. I have yet to use my NEW list yet so this was, again, with the one in the Batrep. (2 x FW, 2 x Kroot, 2 x Pathfinders, 1 xcrisis, 2 x Riptide, Commander, Drone Swarm, 2 Devilfish's)

He had 2xDire, 1xwarriors in venom, 1xwarriors in Raider, blasterborn in venom, 3 Serpents, 2 Forgeworld D-cannon tanks, Eldrad, Farseer, The Duke, Firedragons)

I might be missing something in there but that was essentially it.

I tabled his force and got all the secondary's. I lost My Crisis team. That's Two tablings in a row. Yahoo. Not bad for an exploratotry list, eh?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lumipon wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Lumipon wrote:
^

What works against MEQ works against Tau, maybe with the exception of the Riptide.

Lots of high S low AP shots, instagibbing suits and blowing up tanks.

I mean, it's not going to be that easy, but you can say for sure that a tau army will have Crisis suits and tanks.

Then again this might be as obvious a statement as "an army will have units in it".

My current build has neither Crisis suits nor Hammerheads... Though I am considering a skyray.

Is it Riptides instead of Crises and Broadsides instead of tanks?

Or let me rephrase: Please share :3

The new list which i have been too lazy to box up and prepare for battle is coming. I went and organized my garage and added some shelves so it'll be easuier to find everything. Really looking forward to trying it.

**Ookami**

I've played 5 games since the new codex came out. Won all of them quite easily.

Old Tau Codex was all about Broadsides, Crisis suits and Hammerheads.

The New Codex has just nothing to see with what it used to be. Riptides seem to be the new "broadsides" (there's almost no list without one or two of these beasts). Crisis just lost their importance (mostly because Riptides take the Elite slots). Broadsides are now meh... Skyrays are THE Heavy Support, whereas it was almost never played with the old codex. etc.etc.etc.

Tau "commanders" need to adapt. Times are changing, for the Greater Good.

**Exergy**

Savageconvoy wrote:
gr1m_dan wrote:

More troop options? I disagree with that BUT I think taking Darkstrider opening Pathfinders as troops would have been interesting. Not very competitive but interesting for fluff players. Most Armies have two or three. Not sure what else we could have really? Maybe an Honour Guard Firewarrior-esque squad? Similar to the old ones but maybe an option for us. Still, it's nothing I'm missing and in my last 6 games (all won) I haven't missed another troop choice.
I know CSM has a total of 7 units that can be troop choices and they're all pretty good.

Cultists are garabage being more expensive than IG for signifigantly worse than IG performance.
CSM are good
Chosen are ok as troops but only with a special character do they actually become troops.
PM are great troops
Noise marines are ok at best
Bezerkers are mediocer assault troops in a shooting game. no one is planning lists around new units of bezerkers, people are just finding uses for the models they have.
Tsons are god awful, only the most fluffy non competitive army uses them. Similarly taking MoT on a sorcerer actually makes him worse. Huge tax to deploy as troops.

So yes, they have 7 troop options, more than any other codex I believe, but 1 is great, 2-3 are ok to good, and 3-4 are all but worthless

**AlmightyWalrus**

Exergy wrote:
Savageconvoy wrote:
gr1m_dan wrote:

More troop options? I disagree with that BUT I think taking Darkstrider opening Pathfinders as troops would have been interesting. Not very competitive but interesting for fluff players. Most Armies have two or three. Not sure what else we could have really? Maybe an Honour Guard Firewarrior-esque squad? Similar to the old ones but maybe an option for us. Still, it's nothing I'm missing and in my last 6 games (all won) I haven't missed another troop choice.
I know CSM has a total of 7 units that can be troop choices and they're all pretty good.

Cultists are garabage being more expensive than IG for signifigantly worse than IG performance.

They cost as much as IG but don't get any good weapon options. They're still perfectly fine for backfield objective camping. Hardly garbage.

**Exergy**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Exergy wrote:

Cultists are garabage being more expensive than IG for signifigantly worse than IG performance.

They cost as much as IG but don't get any good weapon options. They're still perfectly fine for backfield objective camping. Hardly garbage.

an IG squad with lasguns costs 50 points
a cultist squad with autoguns costs 60 points

IG have 5+ armor and grenades
cultists have 6+ saves.

IG squads have to purchase a platoon command section for 30 points, but that can carry more weapons and can give orders which dramatically increase the IG squads effectiveness.

Its more than just weapon options, the IG squad is just better.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Puscifer wrote:

Best codexes from 6th:

1) Chaos.
2) Dark Angels.
3) Daemons.
4) Tau.

and yet Necrons and IG are stronger than any of the above.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BoomWolf wrote:
I really dont understand the people who cry about the new codex.
Pretty much every single unit (broadside put aside) was made cheaper, stronger, a combintion of it, or just too different to compare (and usually better then the old when done like this)
The things that DID get nerfs? (and even then questionably)
2-Broadsides, S10 to S8 is a big hit, but the only ones were freaking OP and you know it.
On the bright side, you got a new main weapon option, a very improved SMS (now TL, longer range and ignores cover), and built-in MT and BSF (saving even more points). so it lost power from main gun, but got stronger utility.

they really did need to go down to str8, mass str10 ap 1 at long range silly good. The problem is the cost of the str8 didnt go down enough. The missiles are now noticeably better even at killing armor than the rail rifle. The internal balance of the weapon options is terrible. Not an expert but I think the missiles should be 5 points more and the rail rifles 5 points less, total 10 point additional swing, maybe 5 points is more in order but I dont know.

**uberjoras**

@exergy, i agree with you on the HYMP cost being a bit strange. Broadsides could fit fairly safely at about 55/60 points with the heavy rail rifle and still not be cheesy, since you can only max out 9 s8 shots for an entire heavy FOC worth. To me, it's more about the fact that a squad of broadsides still costs just as much, but is worse at dealing with the armor they're meant to kill, missiles only being marginally better, and I can't get more broadsides/meltaguns elsewhere to compensate, as well as a nerfing of shield drones, so the 'sides are actually less durable.

Essentially, despite the melta elsewhere getting better, I can't get any more of it, and I was already in short supply of AT to begin with.

Then again? Maybe my meta is different - I face mostly mech, with blob support, usually no significant flyer presence. Tough mech, too - 3 vindicators just wipe off entire crisis suit squads that can't even dent them unless I deepstrike next to some counter-charge units. DA powerfields is really rough in IG blobs, or in LR's parked next to artillery/chimeras, or just in a razorback/predator list.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Exergy wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Exergy wrote:

Cultists are garabage being more expensive than IG for signifigantly worse than IG performance.

They cost as much as IG but don't get any good weapon options. They're still perfectly fine for backfield objective camping. Hardly garbage.

an IG squad with lasguns costs 50 points
a cultist squad with autoguns costs 60 points

IG have 5+ armor and grenades
cultists have 6+ saves.

IG squads have to purchase a platoon command section for 30 points, but that can carry more weapons and can give orders which dramatically increase the IG squads effectiveness.

Its more than just weapon options, the IG squad is just better.

The IG squad doesn't give cheap as chips troops to a Codex otherwise buying elite troops. They fulfil different roles.

**Desubot**

Mentlegen, IG vs CSM is getting a bit off topic.

But on the topic of troop choices, what ya guys think of the new kroot.

I had my first game of new tau Saturday, had a 10man sniper kroot in some forest, survived 7 turns of non stop barrage from an enemy fire warrior squad with a fireblade, (luckly he didn't use his marker lights on them but instead on other squshy stuff) only to lose something like 4 models total while taking about 7 of his with marker support.

**uberjoras**

I think that's the exception rather than the standard. I had 15 kroot and 3 krootox get doomed and charged through cover by a DE beast squad 10" away on their first turn, fail to do anything meaningful in overwatch and assault, (as well as the supporting fire from my various FW units) and become a slingshot for the beasts to consolidate super far towards my frontlines.

**Desubot**

uberjoras wrote:
I think that's the exception rather than the standard. I had 15 kroot and 3 krootox get doomed and charged through cover by a DE beast squad 10" away on their first turn, fail to do anything meaningful in overwatch and assault, (as well as the supporting fire from my various FW units) and become a slingshot for the beasts to consolidate super far towards my frontlines.

Probably best not to infiltrate/ position your self that close to a troop like that (unless they got the warlord trait that lets them redeploy within his own DZ)

My situation was interesting as he could of taken em out if he had focused, instead he kept going for that juicy riptide which also survived till the end of the game with 2 wounds left.
(though specifically this was a game for fun and for both of us to learn new tau)

**Exergy**

uberjoras wrote:
I think that's the exception rather than the standard. I had 15 kroot and 3 krootox get doomed and charged through cover by a DE beast squad 10" away on their first turn, fail to do anything meaningful in overwatch and assault, (as well as the supporting fire from my various FW units) and become a slingshot for the beasts to consolidate super far towards my frontlines.

so a VERY powerful assault unit combined with a psykic power from an allied army changed your kroot and beat them. I dont think many infiltrators will do well against that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Desubot wrote:
uberjoras wrote:
I think that's the exception rather than the standard. I had 15 kroot and 3 krootox get doomed and charged through cover by a DE beast squad 10" away on their first turn, fail to do anything meaningful in overwatch and assault, (as well as the supporting fire from my various FW units) and become a slingshot for the beasts to consolidate super far towards my frontlines.

Probably best not to infiltrate/ position your self that close to a troop like that (unless they got the warlord trait that lets them redeploy within his own DZ)

My situation was interesting as he could of taken em out if he had focused, instead he kept going for that juicy riptide which also survived till the end of the game with 2 wounds left.
(though specifically this was a game for fun and for both of us to learn new tau)

Eldrad has the d3 redeploy standard which i highly suspect was involved with the 'doom'

**Desubot**

Exergy wrote:
SNIP

Eww that's pretty gross.

Though if we are in that sort of predicament, i think it would be best to hide the kroot in outflank and react to the way they play.

**acekevin8412**

Desubot wrote:
But on the topic of troop choices, what ya guys think of the new kroot.

I had my first game of new tau Saturday, had a 10man sniper kroot in some forest, survived 7 turns of non stop barrage from an enemy fire warrior squad with a fireblade, (luckly he didn't use his marker lights on them but instead on other squshy stuff) only to lose something like 4 models total while taking about 7 of his with marker support.

The new Kroot are good and bad in my opinion.
I had a unit eat Kabalite Warrior Squad on outflank. Following turn they got shot and assaulted and lost almost half the unit. However, A combination of lucky rolls and AP5 let me match the DE and hold on until Fire Warriors could mop up.

Good:
Cheaper or gain Sniper make them nice objective campers or outflanking troops. Also, AP5 eats through guardsmen and the squishy Eldar aspects. 6+ helps in close combat.
Bad:
Loss of 1S and 1A from Kroot Rifles means if you REALLY want to assault with your Kroot for whatever reason, you have pick your fights unless they're tar-pitting.

**barnowl**

I am missing the massive shield drone nerf. It still as 4++ save and is cheaper.

On the Tank subject, yeah Tau Tank lists took a massive beating, Tau tanks in general took hit. Long Strike just does not really compensate for the combined hits of the multi-tracker and Target lock lose.

**lambsandlions**

barnowl wrote:
I am missing the massive shield drone nerf. It still as 4++ save and is cheaper..

The drone's used to take on the sv characteristic of the controller. So if you had broadside controllers you would have sv2+ 4++ drones. Those are a ton more durable than just 4++ drones. But with missile drones I don't see people using shield drones with broadsides even if they were sv2+ 4++. The nerf hurts me because I used to take a commander with iridium armor and two shield drones to make a 2+ wall basically making my crisis team into crisis terminators.

**uberjoras**

Well heck, even plain crisis suits - I'd rather take markerlight drones than shield drones, because at least they do something if they're not dead. They have a cover save if the suits are in a ruin, and they're just as good at being ablative wounds if that's all you need. Which, at least marker drones are fairly nice and cheap enough now.

I do miss a stealth drone swarm. Odd that they switched T stats - drones gained a T and stealths lost one. It's sad that stealths are still 30 points each, because I would love to pay 20ish for them.

**YotsubaSnake**

uberjoras wrote:
Well heck, even plain crisis suits - I'd rather take markerlight drones than shield drones, because at least they do something if they're not dead. They have a cover save if the suits are in a ruin, and they're just as good at being ablative wounds if that's all you need. Which, at least marker drones are fairly nice and cheap enough now.

I disagree, as a shield drone's sole purpose in life is to absorb the weapons that would ignore armor or instagib your crisis suits. Taking a pair just helps keep your suits alive MUCH better as they at least have a chance to save against an AP4 or better roll. I've lost count of the amount of wounds that my stealth drones have shrugged off because of the fact that they had a 4+ invuln save

**Savageconvoy**

The problem is that if you want those shield drones to take the insta-gib wounds then they have to be in front of the suits. If they are infront of the suits then they're going to be taken down with small arms fire first since they'll only save 50%. Then that leaves suits to get insta-killed by S8 weapons.

**acekevin8412**

Savageconvoy wrote:
The problem is that if you want those shield drones to take the insta-gib wounds then they have to be in front of the suits. If they are infront of the suits then they're going to be taken down with small arms fire first since they'll only save 50%. Then that leaves suits to get insta-killed by S8 weapons.

^What this person said.
Drones, Shield Drones especially, should have gotten a unit wide Look Out, Sir type rule where any non-precision wound the unit takes can allocated to them.

**Tycho**

Puscifer wrote:

Best codexes from 6th:

1) Chaos.
2) Dark Angels.
3) Daemons.
4) Tau.

and yet Necrons and IG are stronger than any of the above.

Not only are Necrons and IG stronger than any of the above, I would argue that the list Puscifer provided is fairly out of order as well. It's way too soon to say where Tau fit in, but Chaos is probably pretty far from being #1 (it certainly is in my area with most long time Chaos players having completely dropped the army because of the new book).

Around here, people seem fairly excited about the Tau book. They are having fairly decent success in games as well. The only that concerns me is that I'm really only seeing gunline armies. That was my one criticism of the book and in my local meta it seems like my fears are being confirmed. The codex just feels like it's pushing you to play more of a static gunline than the mobile Tau I've always loved. I still think it's a good book, I'm just in that awkward, "my girlfriend just cut her hair and looks completely different phase" if that makes sense. lol

**Exergy**

acekevin8412 wrote:
Savageconvoy wrote:
The problem is that if you want those shield drones to take the insta-gib wounds then they have to be in front of the suits. If they are infront of the suits then they're going to be taken down with small arms fire first since they'll only save 50%. Then that leaves suits to get insta-killed by S8 weapons.

^What this person said.
Drones, Shield Drones especially, should have gotten a unit wide Look Out, Sir type rule where any non-precision wound the unit takes can allocated to them.

perhaps 4+ LOS from any model to a shield drone, automatic and 2+ being other options

**AtoMaki**

Tycho wrote:

Not only are Necrons and IG stronger than any of the above, I would argue that the list Puscifer provided is fairly out of order as well. It's way too soon to say where Tau fit in, but Chaos is probably pretty far from being #1 (it certainly is in my area with most long time Chaos players having completely dropped the army because of the new book).

He had a slight mistype in the list. He meant this:

1. Nurgle and Baledrakes
2. Flying Monstrous Creatures
3. Dark Angels
4. Tau
5. Daemons
6. Chaos Space Marines