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 Desubot wrote:

barnowl wrote:


A lascannon bypasses iridium armor, so it is just as good as normal armor, you still need those drones to LOS! on too.

The suit cant be ID though with T5 which is the point.

Narf, forgot about that boost on the commander unit. Same holds true, just you don't need the drones cool. I completely forgot about the T5 last game with him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

barnowl wrote:

Except in the list as used with the old Pos.Relay. Those units are not on the board to be shot at till after turn 2 and come on in more or less the order need and were needed to deal with threats before they are a problem. Really you should look at some of the batreps of his and jazzypaintball. While not the strongest list, it is very good at disrupting most common tactics. .

It served me well. Very very well. Glad to hear you read some of them.

Was disappointed by the changes to reserve in 6e. They put a bit of a dent in that approach.

I'm not discounting all of peregrine's posts ... there are are some valid points being made by him. I'm not sure why you would think that Jancoran is trolling though. He likes an unorthodox list - look at his 6ed list with no heavy slots filled.

My recent testing has found value in units that are generally deemed non-competitive online. I use a single heavy slot only - a skyray. Why, you ask? I wabnt to cascade markerlights on flyers. If I hit with my skyray. I can then hit with my pathfinders or marker drones. It works.

I use ten strong pathfinder units with ion and pulse. Sure we have lots of anti-infantry in a Tau list. But 6ed is infantry heavy. I have not yet felt they are superfluous.

I use Shadowson for two reasons. Sure his stealth shrouding is nice ( and I give him two drones as well) but better is his ability to grant reroll 1s. Your riptides taking nova wounds? I use two. I never got more than one wound on them since including Shadowsun. Not an optimal choice in a vacuum ... good thing we do not play in a vacuum.

I'm a big fan of suicide sunforge suits - cheap as chips at the cost. why is a av13/av14 deemed to be so difficult for Tau to handle - fusion is 9" half range now. Three suits will take dowen any AV14 vehicle reliably.

What I'm still not convinced of is using Tau as a standalone force. I'm more and more shifting to Tau as a very substantive allied force. I need convincing that allies are not pretty much mandatory for high level competitive tournaments.

barnowl wrote:


Was disappointed by the changes to reserve in 6e. They put a bit of a dent in that approach.

Righto, but the approach still works. Its now about adapting the existing strategy to the new equipment so to speak. But the concept of enemy pools is fundamentally sound. I will be working on that very question in future blogs as I test out more and more of the codex.

My brain will put the pieces together. But right now I am feeling that to make it all work coirrectly, one unit of Pathfinders will be mandatory, possibly more, but one for sure. I also think that Stealthsuits will play a bigger role than before in making the strategy work, just due to FOC restrictions. Deep Striking is now an option that has now grown in viability to support the strategy. I already did this to some extent but now can do it with absolute confidence. Everything about the new Codex and also the 6E base rules supports this as a way around the FOC restrictions.

I am hell bent on winning a tourney as a true pure Tau player. Soon.

I look forward to seeing how your testing goes ... I will also keep my eyes peeled for your batreps ... if you post them here.

Averaged across all possible matchups, the lascannon is still an excellent weapon. I find the best anti-horde weapons are templates because they negate cover as well and don't roll to hit. Of course, as BA, I expect to eventually get close. There are enough hard targets that I don't want to get close to to make the lascannon well worthwhile. Once all the codex astartes lists get DA pricing on lascannons, this will be even more true.

I see a lotta QQ just because things changed without considering the fact that we actually got better and more fun to play. Not only are there more than 2 lists that can be played now, all of our units are in some way useful. Some more than others but still, even the vespid have a use, a limited one, but a use none the less.

Also, the claim that Tau dont' have a whole lot of stuff to go take and successfully hold rear objectives may be true but I don't think that is something that is that necessary anyways. Especially because if we were to even try to hold those far objectives we'd need units that can withstand assaults and that is not the tau way.

I think the way to play tau is to hold onto your objective and use the Kauyon or Mont'ka ways of war to destroy your opponent while minimizing your losses, making it so your opponent will have a hard time doing two things. 1) taking the objective that you hold on your side of the board and 2) having their scoring units survive at the end of the game when they don't have many units left to defend.

In other words. Kill your opponent and walk over their corpse to take the objective.

 felixcat wrote:
I look forward to seeing how your testing goes ... I will also keep my eyes peeled for your batreps ... if you post them here.

I just posted one in the Batrep section actually. Feel free! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/521800.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Averaged across all possible matchups, the lascannon is still an excellent weapon.

No one argued this point, ever. What was being pointed out is how much of a waste it isd against the type of army I was positing. I take a fair amount of them myself in IG lists.

 Jancoran wrote:
What was being pointed out is how much of a waste it isd against the type of army I was positing.

An army you have yet to post a list for. I think at this point we have to conclude that the army is about as real as GW's business sense.

After getting a few test games in against various armies, I'm going to have to agree with the OP.

At first I was on the Tau side saying that they were really good, but after some proxy games, there are some glaring weaknesses.

These are the issues we've found as a group testing the army...

- Some units are still too expensive.
Fire Warriors, Crisis Teams, Stealth Teams, Devilfish.

- The army cannot focus enough firepower to be effective.
Now, I play Deathwing and in 1750 I only have roughly twenty guys and two crusaders. I've tabled armies by turn 3/4 through just shooting. If Tau are a shooting army, why can't they do the same?

- You need roughly four units to drop a squad of ten marines and their bawks.
I saw this happen too many times over the last two gaming nights.
Scenario one - Ten MEQ in a bawks.
To destroy the entire unit took... one Pathfinder unit to mark the Rhino, Hammerhead Railgun to destroy the Rhino, a second Pathfinder unit to mark the marines, two Firewarrior squads and a Crisis team just to bring them down.
That was roughly 500 points to kill one unit of Marines. If there were no Pathfinders, the results would have been worse.

This was a typical scenario against a lot of different armies.

Tau look like a shooty army, but considering what I've seen and played against, they are a shooty army but they are weak at it.

So far the most shooty armies in my meta are Guard and Dark Eldar. Tau just cannot bring enough of their great weapons to bear without a lot of support.

They are definitely a finesse army and one that will break if you make a single mistake.

Best codexes from 6th:

1) Chaos.
2) Dark Angels.
3) Daemons.
4) Tau.

If you guys are losing with tau I really don't know what to say. I have found them to be very strong. Now I can say I have been winning with tau and you can say you have been losing and maybe I am just good and you are just bad. No way to really tell. So I looked up all the tau battle reports on the first page of the battle report forum. .


Tau are 8-3-1 in games. This is all in the first two weeks when people don't have their lists nailed out or have to models (I saw a serious lack of riptides) Many of the losing games where the tau players first or second games with the new codex and were using their old models.

So taking the battle reports as a snap shot about how tau are doing I would say Tau are pretty good. Maybe if you were being more hyper critical you would only look at the games vs IG, necrons and CSM as those are the three to beat armies, but so far we don't really have any conclusive data against just those armies. Over all, they feel very balanced in 6th leaning slightly on the powerful side, I would say they are stronger over all than demons and DA (even though demons is a bad match up for tau). I would say they are stronger than CSM minus the helldrake (that thing really puts CSM over the top) In the tournament scene they may struggle against the broken armies, IG and Crons, but will do fine against everything else and in friendly games they are strong without being too over powered where people don't want to play with you.

I haven't played against them yet, but my friend is very excited about a Tau equivalent of Autocannon spam. No idea why people say this is nerfed in 6th, my guardsmen beg to differ!

Oh when we tested, the Tau won, but the games were very close calls.

I'm not a finesse army player, I play Deathwing, so maybe I'm not a good player with the Tau.

Tau have massive strengths but also massive weaknesses.

For example, we found them very weak vs Vanilla MEQ and CSM and Blood Angels face rolled over them with DOA lists.

The hard counter to a lot of these armies was Riptide, but we found this a boring answer and one which could be countered just as hard back.

I think the elephant in the corner was the fact that Pathfinders are an auto take. Every list without Pathfinders suffered greatly as most of the other units couldn't hit enough times to be effective.

Riptide too has appeared in every list that we would consider competitive. It just seemed that there was a cookie cutter config to Elites, FA and HS.

Riptides, Pathfinders, Small squads of Firewarriors and Hammerheads with Farsight Bomb or smaller HQ and Crisis in the Elite slot.

Riptide too has appeared in every list that we would consider competitive. It just seemed that there was a cookie cutter config to Elites, FA and HS.

Riptides, Pathfinders, Small squads of Firewarriors and Hammerheads with Farsight Bomb or smaller HQ and Crisis in the Elite slot.

So I use Sky Rays, Marker Drones, Kroot, Shadowsun. I have shelved my hammerhead for the time being. I use no Broadsides. I do agree that Riptides will likely appear in every list. i agree that marker lights are needed. I have also tested with friends (five games with the new codex). My list is hardly cookie cutter for Tau.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/521854.page

Tau have massive strengths but also massive weaknesses.

For example, we found them very weak vs Vanilla MEQ and CSM and Blood Angels face rolled over them with DOA lists.

Tau have strengths and weaknesses like most armies do. Tau is decent against flyers now (I'm sure this will be a theme in every new codex), have decent defense against deep strike/reserve armies, and can field a lot of models with an MTO theme. All good for Tau.
Tau will not outshoot IG, GK. Tau troops are still weak.The notion that we do not need to take objectives in our opponents side of the table is seriously flawed. And we will not be massacring any high level lists. Can Tau win as they stand without allies? I've yet to be
convinced but to be honest many top lists can play stand alone in 6ed so this is not anything to be upset over.

Best codexes from 6th:

1) Chaos.
2) Dark Angels.
3) Daemons.
4) Tau.

Never mind when the codex was written. The two best codexes are GK and CSM. After that IG (brutal with sabre platforms now), Necrons (need allies) and SW (need allies). Nids are weak and so are Orks, Eldar and DE but the latter three are useful in allied forces. DA are not that good. Why do you think they are strong? SW and BA are both better overall.

Puscifer wrote:
After getting a few test games in against various armies, I'm going to have to agree with the OP.

At first I was on the Tau side saying that they were really good, but after some proxy games, there are some glaring weaknesses.

These are the issues we've found as a group testing the army...

- Some units are still too expensive.
Fire Warriors, Crisis Teams, Stealth Teams, Devilfish.

- The army cannot focus enough firepower to be effective.
Now, I play Deathwing and in 1750 I only have roughly twenty guys and two crusaders. I've tabled armies by turn 3/4 through just shooting. If Tau are a shooting army, why can't they do the same?

- You need roughly four units to drop a squad of ten marines and their bawks.
I saw this happen too many times over the last two gaming nights.
Scenario one - Ten MEQ in a bawks.
To destroy the entire unit took... one Pathfinder unit to mark the Rhino, Hammerhead Railgun to destroy the Rhino, a second Pathfinder unit to mark the marines, two Firewarrior squads and a Crisis team just to bring them down.
That was roughly 500 points to kill one unit of Marines. If there were no Pathfinders, the results would have been worse.

This was a typical scenario against a lot of different armies.

Tau look like a shooty army, but considering what I've seen and played against, they are a shooty army but they are weak at it.

So far the most shooty armies in my meta are Guard and Dark Eldar. Tau just cannot bring enough of their great weapons to bear without a lot of support.

They are definitely a finesse army and one that will break if you make a single mistake.

Best codexes from 6th:

1) Chaos.
2) Dark Angels.
3) Daemons.
4) Tau.

I'm not sure what to say to this... What was the Tau player fielding? He honestly shouldn't have been using the Firewarriors against the Space Marines. That target is better being shot at by a Riptide Nova-charged Ion Accelerator, plasma and/or snipers. The Markerlights shouldn't make huge differences. Pathfinder MLs aren't that great, what with the BS3. A Commander with Drone Controller or a Sniper Team with 3 Marksmen is better because those are more reliable.

This 1850 list I just made should be able to flatten space marines, terminators or normal:
To be honest, whatever list the Tau player was using was probably not that good, and if he was shooting at Space Marines with 12 Firewarriors at 16+" away, he was doing it wrong. No amount of Markerlights will help the Pulse Rifles negate the 3+ save, you need either double or triple that number of shots or weapons with AP2 or 3, like Plasma Rifles, Fusion Blasters, or Railheads sniping from backfield. Riptides are a fantastic all-purpose unit, and I think they will replace Crisis in most lists, except for the Farsight Bomb lists like the one I have.

The list above has 4 melta shots, 28 Pulse Carbine shots, and 10 plasma shots (in melta range) just in the HQ slot, and all of those are twin-linked and ignore cover thanks to the Sensor Suite and Command Node. Outside of that, the list has 58 sniper shots, 6 BS5 Markerlights, 4 BS3 Markerlights, 3 S7 AP2 skyfire/interceptor shots (or a S8/9 PA2 large blast). All I need to do is point the Sniper Marksmen at what I want dead, and it happens. The Farsight bomb comes in where it wants, blows up tanks, and melts terminators. 58 sniper shots takes care of everything else. 18 of those are BS5.

So people are complaining that our lists are all going to be cookie cutter lists. I have to agree at some points and disagree with others. Our army list is one of the smallest, it always has been and the update added a bunch of HQ, one Elite and 2 FA. So even with that we have one of the fewest numbers of playable unites. Take this and compare it with demons who have tons of options in every slot, they will have more diverse lists than us purely because they have more options. But once you look away from our limited types of units you see that all of our units are pretty balanced. Riptides are great but so are crisis suits and people swear on stealth suits. People are fighting about which HQ is best and really anyone but the melee ethereal is great. You can honestly take any unit (other than vespid) and be competitive and that is a sign of a good book.

There are some things that all lists will have in common, markerlights are a big one. But that is one of the unique things about our army. And markerlights don't only come in the form of pathfinders, people have been using marker drones with commanders, marker lights in firewarrior units, marker lights from sniper teams. Pathfinders are the most obvious but not everyone thinks they are the best so they are not an Auto include like so many people are whining about.

I have fit 23 marker lights into my list at 2000 and use a single five man pathfinder unit. My heavy support and fast attack slots are both atypical and work fine. Tau is a synergistic list. All the components in the list need purpose and function so that all the elements of the list support each other. Although this seems a transparant approach in practice it can lead to a variety of builds. I think MTO lists will define Tau at a tournament level.

Tau are weak against Marines? Hmm. News to me. I recently played vs an all Drop Pod Space Wolves army with over 70 Marines, after 2 turns the opponent called it because I killed 50 SW. That is without low AP weaponry. In fact, I only have 1 AP1 Weapon and a few shots that could rend with some luck.

MEQ die to torrent, IMO, it's more efficient and better against a wider variety of armies to rely on mass shots rather than quality of shots.

Well my gaming group are suggesting I look at Tau again.

They are helping me to play a non Terminator army, considering I have had all three of them.

That and all my friends are playing the other armies except Tau lol.

Backfire wrote:

I don't need to. I can read rules, you know. Honestly, you just don't get it: this is not about some stat nerf or price increase, this is about missing rules which were essential in playing the vehicles. It's like if Orks lost Furious charge and Mob rules. You don't NEED to take test games to realize that the army has become something totally different and does not work like the old army and if you loved playing Green Tide, then it does not matter how good Killa Kans or Big Gunz had become, the army you liked is unviable.

This was a while ago, and I'm late coming to this, so I don't know if anybody has brought this up, but as an avid orks player, WE DID LOSE FURIOUS CHARGE. The new rules edition KILLED my green tide lists as the loss of a +1 to initiative and being unable to bubble wrap my PK's killed them almost entirely. Did that mean I belly-ached and said that the new edition was crap? Hell no, I sat back down and drew up new lists that emphasized the new strengths of my army (which are hard to discern btw). Quit your belly-achin' and just eat your new codex or go sit in the corner where no one cares about you.

I seriously hate when these seemingly toddler tantrums arise because everything isn't just as they want it. Want to change the way things work in codexes and the 40k hobby as a whole? Go work for GW.

Kanrail wrote:

Backfire wrote:

I don't need to. I can read rules, you know. Honestly, you just don't get it: this is not about some stat nerf or price increase, this is about missing rules which were essential in playing the vehicles. It's like if Orks lost Furious charge and Mob rules. You don't NEED to take test games to realize that the army has become something totally different and does not work like the old army and if you loved playing Green Tide, then it does not matter how good Killa Kans or Big Gunz had become, the army you liked is unviable.

This was a while ago, and I'm late coming to this, so I don't know if anybody has brought this up, but as an avid orks player, WE DID LOSE FURIOUS CHARGE. The new rules edition KILLED my green tide lists as the loss of a +1 to initiative and being unable to bubble wrap my PK's killed them almost entirely. Did that mean I belly-ached and said that the new edition was crap? Hell no, I sat back down and drew up new lists that emphasized the new strengths of my army (which are hard to discern btw). Quit your belly-achin' and just eat your new codex or go sit in the corner where no one cares about you.

I seriously hate when these seemingly toddler tantrums arise because everything isn't just as they want it. Want to change the way things work in codexes and the 40k hobby as a whole? Go work for GW.

Your Green Tide also gained best Overwatch capability in the game (assuming you use Shootas). And was loss of +1 I really that big a deal given that MEQ armies tend to be I4 anyway? I'd think that nerf to Multi-assault was much bigger hindrance to Green Tide list.

By the way, the new Tau codex still sucks.

I feel I should clear up a misconception in this thread.

Vendettas should fear broadsides rather than the other way around.

Lets pit 3 Vendettas against 3 broadsides with skyfire and 6 missile drones. We will assume that the Vendettas get the first shot and the broadsides have 4+ cover from ruins or Aegis. Point values are slightly more for the vendettas. For simplicities sake I will use average rolls.

Turn 2. Vendettas come in and kill 3 drones rounded up. Broadsides kill1 Vendetta. Turn 3. Vendettas kill 2 drones. Broadsides kill another Vendetta. Turn 4. Remaining Vendetta kills last drone. Broadsides finish Vendettas off.

Final result. 3 Vendettas lost versus 6 drones, huge point disparity. Now granted the fight is actually closer than it appears on 100% average rolls, as the guard player only needs somewhat hot dice to kill a single broadside and dramatically alter the fight. Still, the tau player will come out ahead more often than not and without losing much either.

Furthermore, if the tau player really wants the broadsides to dominate, he can include a commander granting tankhunters or use shadowsun for the 2+ cover save.

Bottom line, flyers better watch out.

I really dont understand the people who cry about the new codex.

Pretty much every single unit (broadside put aside) was made cheaper, stronger, a combintion of it, or just too different to compare (and usually better then the old when done like this)

Restrictions were removed, new options were added, unusable things got fixed, guns got more shots, guns got more range, guns got new special rules, an army-wide rule that books overwatch (guns) got implanted free of charge.


The things that DID get nerfs? (and even then questionably)

1-TA gone? well, I used it too, but it was never really required and admit it you rarely used it for much other then shas'el.

2-Broadsides, S10 to S8 is a big hit, but the only ones were freaking OP and you know it.
On the bright side, you got a new main weapon option, a very improved SMS (now TL, longer range and ignores cover), and built-in MT and BSF (saving even more points). so it lost power from main gun, but got stronger utility.

3-Dpod nerfed? you know full well that thing was also OP shrouded for 5 points? heck I would put these on firewarriors if I could! the 5 point cost was meant for the OLD rules if you forgot them (you always count like you are in cover), not for the insane interactions with jink!
And at least it still functions at melta range now.

4-Hammerheads lost multi-trackers? yea, it sucks. but you know as well as I do that with new railgun price, and the improved ion cannon, it would have been OP with it.
And its still pretty damn decent without it, its a cheap tank with a good gun that can get into very, very awkward positions. show me a leman russ jumping across rooftops. (and sensor spins allow you to do that with no risk!)

4 things! in the entire codex! and the only reason they were not auto-takes 3 of each is that broadsides competed with hamerheads for slots, and Dpod and TA where upgrades for these very units!

The codex is cheaper, stronger, got stronger upgrade options (for those who with to keep model count low), has much more variety and it all around great.
A few things got nerfed, true. but they were all either OP from the firstplace, or would have become such combined with the new options.

And its STRONG, you don't need to start putting down math to realize that a 47 point crisis suit with plasma/burst is a serious threat to similarly-costed units, and its not even anything special, or based on any combos, its the most basic setup possible.
People say we must use markerlights and its a flaw? they are WRONG. I did perfectly well last codex with no markers at all (moar dakka style), and considering every single unit I was fielding got cheaper, I could just spam even more dakka. (tough I think I'll go for some drones)


Its a well-written codex, its a balanced codex, and its a fun codex.
What the hell more do you want?

 BoomWolf wrote:
I really dont understand the people who cry about the new codex......

+1 for body slamming the whiners in this thread.

 BoomWolf wrote:

3-Dpod nerfed? you know full well that thing was also OP shrouded for 5 points? heck I would put these on firewarriors if I could! the 5 point cost was meant for the OLD rules if you forgot them (you always count like you are in cover), not for the insane interactions with jink!
And at least it still functions at melta range now.

The Dpod wasn't nerfed. Yeah, maybe it gives +1 to cover saves now, but it also lost the 12" minimal range. And that's a HUGE improvement.

HA! New Codex sucks?!

REALLY???

I have gone 6-0-0 and that's against players who have played against Tau before and some very good players so don't give me the "They don't know how Tau work" BS. I find being very aggressive is working well for me - big risk, big gain. We are not just a "sit back and shoot" army any longer.

Space Marines are possibly the easiest army I've played against so far. Weight of quality high strength firepower just negates 3+ saves. With marker lights they become even more brutal.

We have possibly the best interceptor in the game (Riptide!) that just laughs at reserves. You can still fire your secondary weapons in the next turn so he's not completely useless. Interceptor is done on a weapon by weapon basis ;-) Deepstriking this thing close to a Stealth Team or Ethereal (I run Ethereal in Devilfish with homing beacon) always strengthens my already strong flank attack (Devilfish, Piranhas in front with fusion, Crisis team hiding behind DF, all moving in unison, firing)

IG are only gak because of their flyers - rest of the army I find really easy to take on and easily over come.

So shocked that some people still think Tau suck. I'd say it's more along the lines of you can't adapt or use what we have been given.

I am glad we no longer have Mat Ward over the top cheese. I stopped using Necrons on purpose because they were so easy and bland to use. I was fed up of being called "cheese" too. I imagine I could pick up BA or GK and do the same but these 6th Ed Codexes are a lot more balanced with all units having some use to a certain extent (Mega tournament power gaming aside, leave that to 5th Ed Codexes)

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

3-Dpod nerfed? you know full well that thing was also OP shrouded for 5 points? heck I would put these on firewarriors if I could! the 5 point cost was meant for the OLD rules if you forgot them (you always count like you are in cover), not for the insane interactions with jink!
And at least it still functions at melta range now.

The Dpod wasn't nerfed. Yeah, maybe it gives +1 to cover saves now, but it also lost the 12" minimal range. And that's a HUGE improvement.

The main nerf is the price there.

Tabled an IG List tonight. Same list as before, haven't even used the new list yet (laziness of having to shelf and unshelf the army is mostly my problem, LOL).

The game was over by turn 3. I had eliminated three of his four sectors on the Scouring mission by then (effectively, though he had some singular model remnants here and there to clean up in the next round). Once again, never had to fire a single Markerlight from the Pathfinders. His flyers showed up and tried to dump demo charges on me at the end but ultimately, too little too late. The Kroot has already done their grisly work (as I love to say), so the losses didn't turn the tide.

His list was a fast moving mobile force that could reach anywhere it wanted to while blasting you into submission with missile fire whether you be infantry or vehicles. this was essentially the list:

Hellhound Squadron (2 x hellhounds, 1 DevilDog)
Valkyrie with Demo specialists in it
Vendetta with Demo specialists in it
Specialist squad on foot with...DEMO charges galore!
Penal Legion
BIG blob squad wit hBlob squad stuff
LOTS of missile Launcher teams. Like...a lot.
5 Storm Troopers (2 meltas)
5 Storm Troopers (2 melta)
Marbo
Company Command (lots o plasma)
Aegis

I dont know the exactitudes, but that was essentially the list. NASTY amount of demo charges in this list, tons of stuff that didn't really rely on BS to hit and none of it good for Tau health at all. I cant imagine how much damage that would do to a MEQ army but wow... Specialist squads are cool.

Had they gotten close enough to my troops (especially), they would have been devastating, but via meneuvering, I was able to cut him off and give him poor places to land. Once hovering, well... In addition I was able to use Interceptor on Marbo and on Specialist squads, so... Interceptor may be the most powerful thing about Riptides.

He actually did a pretty fair amount of damage when he got the chance as you can imagine, but I flooded him with firepower so quickly that he couldn't keep up the torrent. The back breaker was tank shocking his blob RIGHT into the path of a veritableplethors of flamers and STR 5 shots. It was...Not pretty.

I won 17-0. I lost a kroot unit and a Crisis Team. That's it.

Thought I'd share that. It was rather stunning. I'm still kind of in shock about it. The terrain was a big contributor in this one. A big LOS blocker impacted movement, Line of sight, and created a bottleneck that turned out to be very significant. I utilized it better in the end and io credit movement more than anything for the win.

Backfire wrote:

Kanrail wrote:

Backfire wrote:

I don't need to. I can read rules, you know. Honestly, you just don't get it: this is not about some stat nerf or price increase, this is about missing rules which were essential in playing the vehicles. It's like if Orks lost Furious charge and Mob rules. You don't NEED to take test games to realize that the army has become something totally different and does not work like the old army and if you loved playing Green Tide, then it does not matter how good Killa Kans or Big Gunz had become, the army you liked is unviable.

This was a while ago, and I'm late coming to this, so I don't know if anybody has brought this up, but as an avid orks player, WE DID LOSE FURIOUS CHARGE. The new rules edition KILLED my green tide lists as the loss of a +1 to initiative and being unable to bubble wrap my PK's killed them almost entirely. Did that mean I belly-ached and said that the new edition was crap? Hell no, I sat back down and drew up new lists that emphasized the new strengths of my army (which are hard to discern btw). Quit your belly-achin' and just eat your new codex or go sit in the corner where no one cares about you.

I seriously hate when these seemingly toddler tantrums arise because everything isn't just as they want it. Want to change the way things work in codexes and the 40k hobby as a whole? Go work for GW.

Your Green Tide also gained best Overwatch capability in the game (assuming you use Shootas). And was loss of +1 I really that big a deal given that MEQ armies tend to be I4 anyway? I'd think that nerf to Multi-assault was much bigger hindrance to Green Tide list.

By the way, the new Tau codex still sucks.

Yes, shootas became a must have now. I used to run nothing but slugga choppa boyz because that +1 to init allowed me to throw 100+ attacks at MEQ and other init 4 armies simultaneously. Was hilarious to watch and frustrating as hell for my opponents. Now its simply +1 Str, and I'm sorry, no where near as useful. I digress, I do have to agree the loss of Str 8 railguns on the broadsides seems a bit messed up, but I've been looking to them for allies. In all honesty, Tau look like they're going to fill the anti-armor whole in my orks list just fine, regardless of losing the Str 10's. Hell of a lot more reliable than BS2 rokkits, tell you that right now.

Kanrail wrote:

Yes, shootas became a must have now. I used to run nothing but slugga choppa boyz because that +1 to init allowed me to throw 100+ attacks at MEQ and other init 4 armies simultaneously. Was hilarious to watch and frustrating as hell for my opponents. Now its simply +1 Str, and I'm sorry, no where near as useful. I digress, I do have to agree the loss of Str 8 railguns on the broadsides seems a bit messed up, but I've been looking to them for allies. In all honesty, Tau look like they're going to fill the anti-armor whole in my orks list just fine, regardless of losing the Str 10's. Hell of a lot more reliable than BS2 rokkits, tell you that right now.

Er, now I don't quite understand. Ork Boyz are I2 base, and Furious Charge got them to I3, but all the MEQ are still I4 so they hit first anyway? (Of course there are probably some I3 opponents against whom it hurts...) Or were you talking about Nobz?
I agree that Challenge system was big nerf to how Powerklaw Nobz used to work. Plus of course some other stuff like new Assault rules etc. OTOH, vehicles are now much easier to assault, killing those Land Raiders isn't so hopeless for Orks anymore. Also, no more Fearless wounds!

I do agree that the loss of S10 Broadsides made me panic to start with and I was quite concerned with how to deal with a lot of AV14 - only seen in IG armies and very rarely I play against more than three LRuss in any given game. However I have found a few things that have so far done the dirty work quite well (very well actually!)

Shadowsun + Stealths w/ fusion thrown in. If you can get no-LOS deployment you will be within melta range on the first turn given our 9" melta range. Very powerful if used correctly. Risky though given she may be our HQ! I like high risk though.

Piranhas - I have always been a fan of these guys. In my last few games they have been phenomenal. They just seem to get ignored until it's too late or simply survive. They have taken out so far: Dreadnought, Helbrute, Leman Russ, Ravengers and only one has died in return. Great blockers too. Now drones don't give up KPs they are fun to run alongside the Piranhas. I think they will be target number one.

Crisis Teams - Monat suits can be fairly good for coming in but I still prefer at least two with some drones. This is obviously much riskier and harder to pull off but can be lethal. So far they have accounted for more Dreadnoughts than anything else.

There are other options but these are the main three I have used with the most success. The Hammerhead is still very viable esp with Longstrike and MLs. It normally goes for pie plating troops or taking out lower AV vehicles that need to go quick.