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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 19:19:44
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight
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Grey Templar wrote: Wilytank wrote: Charles Rampant wrote:This analysis is flawed. If the Helldrake cannot be assaulted, then it wins the 'assault' round. If the Helldrake is the 'best option in Fast Attack', while the Riptide competes with Crisis Suits, then the Helldrake wins that also.
Well, if he goes into Hover Mode (which people will do to keep him on the board to make another Flamer attack instead of losing a turn of doing that), then he's a fast skimmer which can be assaulted. Not sure if he gets any extra rules for assault, but if he's just a regular fast skimmer he can't attack back.
It will be very rare that someone will drop the Heldrake into hover mode unless its close to the end game and it just needs one more flamer shot to kill something.
Or remove the most threatening thing (i.e. my Long Fangs) before going back into zoom next turn. Every game I've played against drakes, there were always two of them. I did at best a penetrating Stunned (which was subsequentially ignored due to Daemon Possession).
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
anonymou5 wrote:Well, I can't remove the Helldrake from play with JoTWW
Rune Priest: 24" Jaws of the World Wolf.
Riptide: 72" Str 8 Ap 2 (No runic armour for you) insta-death pie plate.
You're not going to get the shot off, unless you Pod in. If you fail Psychic, or he Denies, or Passes his Psychic test on a 50% chance, you kill one Riptide. And the other two pie plate you to death. Naked Rune Priest + Drop Pod = 135 points.
He probably will be Podding in and if luck is on the side of the honorable (or rather the Tau player is pressed for room), he can line up two or even all three that way. Works better against Nids' Tervigons though.
And why can't Dark Eldar handle it with poison? The only weapon you mention is the Splinter Cannon, but that isn't the only poison gun they have. A bunch of Reaver Jetbikes with TL Splinter Rifles are much more capable at bringing down MCs.
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Space Wolves: 3770
Orks: 3000
Chaos Daemons: 1750
Warriors of Chaos: 2000
My avatar |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 19:20:41
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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You misquoted me. I never said such a thing!
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Star Trek taught me so much. Like, how you should accept people, whether they be black, white, Klingon or even female...
FAQs |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 19:25:53
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran
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jifel wrote:This guys tough, not THAT tough. Poisoned gants, enfeebled and smash, or just ignore and Dakka all work. If I see one, I do the same as versus all tau. Kill the troops and bunker down while every non scoring unit rushes him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This guys tough, not THAT tough. Poisoned gants, enfeebled and smash, or just ignore and Dakka all work. If I see one, I do the same as versus all tau. Kill the troops and bunker down while every non scoring unit rushes him.
Poisoned Gants are not going to get anywhere near it. You can't ignore it, because it's dropping 3x pie plate on you every turn. The only thing that stands a chance is Winged Hive Tyrant assaulting it, but congrats you're tying up a 185 point unit with a 260 point unit and nerfing your own firepower the rest of the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wilytank wrote: Grey Templar wrote: Wilytank wrote: Charles Rampant wrote:This analysis is flawed. If the Helldrake cannot be assaulted, then it wins the 'assault' round. If the Helldrake is the 'best option in Fast Attack', while the Riptide competes with Crisis Suits, then the Helldrake wins that also.
Well, if he goes into Hover Mode (which people will do to keep him on the board to make another Flamer attack instead of losing a turn of doing that), then he's a fast skimmer which can be assaulted. Not sure if he gets any extra rules for assault, but if he's just a regular fast skimmer he can't attack back.
It will be very rare that someone will drop the Heldrake into hover mode unless its close to the end game and it just needs one more flamer shot to kill something.
Or remove the most threatening thing (i.e. my Long Fangs) before going back into zoom next turn. Every game I've played against drakes, there were always two of them. I did at best a penetrating Stunned (which was subsequentially ignored due to Daemon Possession).
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
anonymou5 wrote:Well, I can't remove the Helldrake from play with JoTWW
Rune Priest: 24" Jaws of the World Wolf.
Riptide: 72" Str 8 Ap 2 (No runic armour for you) insta-death pie plate.
You're not going to get the shot off, unless you Pod in. If you fail Psychic, or he Denies, or Passes his Psychic test on a 50% chance, you kill one Riptide. And the other two pie plate you to death. Naked Rune Priest + Drop Pod = 135 points.
He probably will be Podding in and if luck is on the side of the honorable (or rather the Tau player is pressed for room), he can line up two or even all three that way. Works better against Nids' Tervigons though.
And why can't Dark Eldar handle it with poison? The only weapon you mention is the Splinter Cannon, but that isn't the only poison gun they have. A bunch of Reaver Jetbikes with TL Splinter Rifles are much more capable at bringing down MCs.
Guess who can take Interceptor on every unit now?
I highly doubt the Tau player is going to line them up neatly so you can JOTWW all three if he's decent. In any case, you lose the librarian and anything with him for half a chance of killing a single 185 point unit.
Dark Eldar can't kill it with poison because of 2+. It takes statistically 100 splinter shots to kill it, and a Splinter weaponry has far less range than the Riptide- even night shields are useless. A strong Dark Eldar list can put out maybe 60-80 poisoned shots on the first turn, and then they die horribly to massed plasma.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 19:30:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 19:41:43
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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1st Lieutenant
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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You are seriously overestimating the power of this thing.
Yeah it's tough, really tough, but take off the red-tinted glasses and see that it can still die like any other MC. It takes a bit more firepower to take it down thanks to the annoying JSJ, but it can still die. Remember, boards have terrain. On a flat board with no cover, this thing is nearly unkillable. But if you bring one of the boards my FLGS plays with, good luck getting LOS until they are inside 24".
I'm smelling so much bias, but that's a different story. On paper, this thing is AWESOME. But in practicality, you have to remember most scenarios aren't going to give you the best possible outcome and things like cover, LOS, and dice rolling need to be taken into account.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 19:45:16
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Cost
Defence.
Helldrake: Av 12/12/10, 5++, 3HP, Flyer (6's to hit), It Will Not Die (Regens a HP on a 5+ at the end of the turn), rest of the codex is an utter b**ch to deal with (4++ and FnP spam).
Riptides: T6 W5 2+ 5++ (3++)
Winner: Helldrake - it's going to take more than half you army to reliably gun down, and the rest of the codex will beat the snot out of you as you do so.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 19:45:33
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I'm really not seeing why the Riptide is scarier than the Dreadknight. At least the Dreadknight doesn't have 1/3 a chance to fail upping its save and hurting itself. JSJ'ing away is fine and all, but it doesn't change the fact that no matter where the Riptide is on the board it will never be unable to be shot at by a lascannon because it's just so big.
My strategy for taking it down will probably involve forcing the Tau player to roll his dice to up his save to 3++. When he fails and wounds himself, I'll focus that Riptide down. When he succeeds, I'll shoot something else. It's not like the Tau are going to have a lot of other targets to shoot lascannons at if they're taking 3 Riptides.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/08 19:56:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 19:47:55
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
Livingston, United Kingdom
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Mate, you keep banging on about the 72" thing. How big is your board? Unless you flee the entire length of the table, you don't have that much to escape from enemy weapons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 19:55:59
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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I can see any CSM army with some thought behind it beating the balls out of the riptide.
This army has the following options:
-Bring so much 4++ save that the Tau guns are made pointless
-Spam cultists/csm/autocannons and pour out so many shots it's statistically impossible to survive
-Send in a Daemon Prince (assuming it's not shot down)
-Use Abby in melee (Raider it's ass to oblivion)
-Take the Riptide's size into account and snipe with Lascannons (Cheap Predator Annihilator ftw!)
-Ally with orks for additional cannon fodder
-Use PM's to tarpit the Riptide.
-Spam Heldrakes and ignore the Riptide
-Pieplate the rest of the army with Vindicators/Defilers/Missile Launchers/Havoc Launchers. You can't hold objectives without troops.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 19:56:12
Subject: Re:Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran
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The problem is you're assuming all your solutions for short range MCs like Tervigons, Carnifexes, and Dreadknights work because they have to move into rapid-fire range of your Plasma et.al. to do damage.
This is a standard 6'4' Tournament table and terrain, from Adepticon 2012.
Two Riptides go in one corner, the other one in the other.
Your Lascannons have to deploy on the front line if they want to shoot one corner, and will be completely outranged by the other. Your Devastators will be dead by turn three, because 3 Pie Plates> Lascannons against a 3++ invuln. And Riptides can move and shoot, while you cannot reposition or have to snap shot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Xyrael wrote:I'm really not seeing why the Riptide is scarier than the Dreadknight. At least the Dreadknight doesn't have 1/3 a chance to fail upping its save and hurting itself. JSJ'ing away is fine and all, but it doesn't change the fact that no matter where the Riptide is on the board it will never be unable to be shot at by a lascannon because it's just so big.
My strategy for taking it down will probably involve forcing the Tau player to roll his dice to up his save to 3++. When he fails and wounds himself, I'll focus that Riptide down. When he succeeds, I'll shoot something else. It's not like the Tau are going to have a lot of other targets to shoot lascannons at if they're taking 3 Riptides.
This is a good strategy, but how many Lascannons do you field?
It takes an MEQ Lascannon 15 shots on average to kill a non-nova'd Riptide, and since you cannot mitigate its firepower by stunning it, it will shoot back.
That Chaos list is kind of feeble. I doubt any assault option aside from the DP will make it remotely close to combat, and the Riptide outshoots everything else the CSM can throw at it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Selym wrote:Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Cost
Defence.
Helldrake: Av 12/12/10, 5++, 3HP, Flyer (6's to hit), It Will Not Die (Regens a HP on a 5+ at the end of the turn), rest of the codex is an utter b**ch to deal with (4++ and FnP spam).
Riptides: T6 W5 2+ 5++ (3++)
Winner: Helldrake - it's going to take more than half you army to reliably gun down, and the rest of the codex will beat the snot out of you as you do so.
What utter rot. Any suitably equipped with AA army (Sabre defence, Contemptor Mortis, Hyperios Launchers) doesn't fear Heldrakes. There are easy solutions to Helldrakes.
There aren't any easy solutions to Range 72" MCs with 2+ 3++ that can JSJ.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'm not saying that it's impossible to kill, I'm saying it's the next Helldrake-level uber cheese unit that people should and will spam in threes.
No combination of Crisis suits for 555 points puts out as much fire or has equal durability as three Riptides.
I'm not hugely worried in my meta because I play on tables the size of postage stamps, but 6'4' could be real trouble.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/08 20:06:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 20:48:39
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Jervis Johnson
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I agree with most of what Asmodai here is preaching.
The thing that is irrelevant though is whether the Riptide is 'better' than the Heldrake or not. They belong to different armies so unless you're thinking which army to ally with then the question is pointless.
The important thing to understand here though is that just like the Heldrake, the Riptide is the best unit in its own army codex, and that it will be taken in threes by practically every semi or fully competitive player all over the world. It'll take some people a bit more time to understand but in the end everyone's spamming these things.
Asmodai has gone through pretty much all the pros and cons of this thing except that the Riptide's ion weapon with great AP really benefits from friendly marker lights that remove the cover saves from the Riptide's targets. When you factor that stuff in the output becomes more fearsome.
I also agree that 555 points (tbh they will cost a bit more than 555 since you'll buy FNP and interceptor for each one) isn't a big investment at all in 1850 points when you consider what you get. I think three Riptides, especially if they're getting cover saves from something, are pretty much impossible to be shot down in a competitive game. By impossible I mean horribly points inefficient, so just by making the decision to shoot them you're already losing the game.
How I've adjusted my competitive Necron army is dropped all Stormteks and the foot lord and lead the army with a single Destroyer Lord and bumped the assault element to 16 Wraiths. I still get 5 flyers and 3 Barges and plenty of boys with these in 1.85K. I wouldn't be surprised if one or two Riptides survive every game but I'm still confident the game is winnable by a good enough margin.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 20:52:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 21:03:59
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Lieutenant Colonel
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lol really?
something with the same stat line as a dreadknight but +1 wound is now unkillable?
cover??? really, on a rip tide? good luck with that.
yes its a great unit, but op? not even close
yes... if you can only think of walking 24" plasma gunners up to it, you are SOL.. because thats a horrible strategy for anything, let alone the rip tide. Assuming hat gian model will always be behind cover is also just more debbie downer talk
last I checked, lascannons are still going to cover the whole board, and really? you wonder how in the heck im going to get a force weapon into CC with a rip tide? its not that hard... transports, jet packs, deep strike, and so on and so on.
for example... 3 riptides = 555
3 dreadknigghts, 2 with jump packs, = 540pts
the rips will get one turn to somehow do 12 2+/5++ wounds, magically somewhow with their "invicible pie plates that nothing can survive"
turn 2 two rips will die to the DK, turn three the last one dies with two dread knights left over.
same thing with any FMC, FPC or anything with mobility and hitting power (which is plenty)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 21:07:36
Subject: Re:Riptides are the new Helldrake
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Its not hard to get cover even for a model that big, you only need to cover 25%. If you can't cover 25% of that thing you need more terrain.
My Dreadknights are always getting cover saves.
of course with a 5+ invuln unless there are Ruins on the table your cover will likely be the same as the invuln anyway.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 22:09:39
Subject: Re:Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine
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What about the simple terminators with storm shields and thunder hammers, or just hordes of orks? You aint going to kill that many ork boys at 180pts for 30, or what about pycannons, or a vanguard veteran squad, or draigo or even better lysander with his storms shield buddies? running 3, leaves you with little pts for anti air or any other shizzle in 1500pts? And because tournament boards are so small you are going to get assaulted by so many things that don't care if you kill 20 of them per turn.
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Blood angels are so awesome they make me cry!
6k Bloodangels and counting
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 22:14:52
Subject: Re:Riptides are the new Helldrake
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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The Riptide isn't meant to kill TH/SS terminators, nothing with AP2 weapons should try to kill TH/SS terminators. TH/SS is the counter to AP2 weaponry.
You kill them with volume of fire, shoot your Firewarriors at them.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 22:24:20
Subject: Re:Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine
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But how many fire warriors and markerlights you going to have if you spent at least 600 pts on mc? you gonna need large volumes of fire to deal with that. Having3 uber unit is asking for some on to be that 1 person that is really good them units and wipe them out with ease, having 1 or 2 yes, but 3 is just silly!
Or what about landraiders, if you meet a landraider its gonna be in ur face unless you have a hammerhead, which is unlikely, ur gonna be trying with a str 9 ordance which is unlikely to hurt it, while it either hurts you with lascannons or lets out a nice assault unit.
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Blood angels are so awesome they make me cry!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 22:29:24
Subject: Re:Riptides are the new Helldrake
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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12 Fire Warriors using a single Markerlight to go the BS4 will kill 1 terminator at long range a round. You should have 2 turns of shooting at long range and 2 at short range. Thats 6 dead TH/SS terminators from a single fire warrior squad before they get butchered in melee. Assuming the Terminators are gunning for the fire warriors, which is unlikely.
Thats only 120ish points depending on exact upgrades to kill 240 points of Terminators.
The Riptide can use its fast movement to avoid melee threats and focus on its targets.
And you will be taking Hammerheads. From the look of it the competitive layout will be 1 squad of Broadsides with Skyfire upgrade and a couple Hammerheads for long range anti-tank. The broadsides can still take out medium and light vehicles as well.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 22:30:31
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 22:35:11
Subject: Re:Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine
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And what game do you play where terminators are not going to deepstrike? and if they don't you are not going to get 4 turns of shooting at them, at max your 30 inches away, if I run that's only 3 turns till I get to you. And if I use a landraider, which you will have little to counter i can easily catch you!
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Blood angels are so awesome they make me cry!
6k Bloodangels and counting
1.5k Grey Knights and counting |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 22:36:20
Subject: Re:Riptides are the new Helldrake
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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samuele999 wrote:And what game do you play where terminators are not going to deepstrike? and if they don't you are not going to get 4 turns of shooting at them, at max your 30 inches away, if I run that's only 3 turns till I get to you. And if I use a landraider, which you will have little to counter i can easily catch you!
Deep Striking is a bad idea most of the time. A unit with a footprint that big and that vulnerable to torrents of fire is going to be toast.
Deep Strike is not the amazing tactical tool that GW and many newbs think it is, its an occasionally useful ability.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 22:36:58
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 22:37:54
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Aspirant Tech-Adept
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So much bickering and theory hammer in this thread. I dont find the comparison between the riptide and heldrake informative at all. Taking 3 riptides is a huge amount of points for only 3 models, I dont think it will be nearly as hard to kill as some people say.
If there is a lot of terrain on the board then the riptide will be hampered somewhat where it can move. People assuming its going to get cover saves must be assuming whatever is shooting at it is not moving.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 22:39:00
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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JWhex wrote:So much bickering and theory hammer in this thread. I dont find the comparison between the riptide and heldrake informative at all. Taking 3 riptides is a huge amount of points for only 3 models, I dont think it will be nearly as hard to kill as some people say.
If there is a lot of terrain on the board then the riptide will be hampered somewhat where it can move. People assuming its going to get cover saves must be assuming whatever is shooting at it is not moving.
The Riptide has a Jetpack move, of course we will assume its going to get cover saves. Jump, Shoot, Jump. Its what Tau do.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 22:42:17
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Riptide T6
I can kill it with lasguns.
That is all that matters.
It WILL happen
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'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 22:44:03
Subject: Re:Riptides are the new Helldrake
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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yeah, but its even more unlikely than killing the Dreadknight. It can get FnP on top of the good save.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 22:50:26
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Agile Revenant Titan
In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout
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It's a close call now, but I think the Riptide will end up victorious in the long term. The Heldrake's big advantage is that it's a flier and hence most things have to snap-fire at it. But as more and more armies get updated, we'll see more and more fliers which is more stuff in the sky that can take down the Heldrake.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 22:56:49
Subject: Re:Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Dakka Veteran
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A Dreadknight kills a Riptide. A Dreadknight can not kill a heldrake.
Heldrake wins.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 23:07:29
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Tunneling Trygon
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Asmodai Asmodean wrote: jifel wrote:This guys tough, not THAT tough. Poisoned gants, enfeebled and smash, or just ignore and Dakka all work. If I see one, I do the same as versus all tau. Kill the troops and bunker down while every non scoring unit rushes him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This guys tough, not THAT tough. Poisoned gants, enfeebled and smash, or just ignore and Dakka all work. If I see one, I do the same as versus all tau. Kill the troops and bunker down while every non scoring unit rushes him.
Poisoned Gants are not going to get anywhere near it. You can't ignore it, because it's dropping 3x pie plate on you every turn. The only thing that stands a chance is Winged Hive Tyrant assaulting it, but congrats you're tying up a 185 point unit with a 260 point unit and nerfing your own firepower the rest of the game.
Ymgarl Genestealers could do well, or the Doom. Let's make that bad boy take two 3d6 leadership checks, then take some Ymgarls to the chin. Hes tied up in assault for at least one turn, at which point it's a third Ld check before he gets to even shoot the doom.
But, I think I could ignore it. I have plenty of gants, and I can kill his troops well enough.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 23:14:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 23:08:11
Subject: Re:Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Your Lascannons have to deploy on the front line if they want to shoot one corner, and will be completely outranged by the other. Your Devastators will be dead by turn three, because 3 Pie Plates> Lascannons against a 3++ invuln. And Riptides can move and shoot, while you cannot reposition or have to snap shot.
It's either the pie plates or the 3++, not both in one turn. This makes a significant difference.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 23:10:27
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Grey Templar wrote:JWhex wrote:So much bickering and theory hammer in this thread. I dont find the comparison between the riptide and heldrake informative at all. Taking 3 riptides is a huge amount of points for only 3 models, I dont think it will be nearly as hard to kill as some people say.
If there is a lot of terrain on the board then the riptide will be hampered somewhat where it can move. People assuming its going to get cover saves must be assuming whatever is shooting at it is not moving.
The Riptide has a Jetpack move, of course we will assume its going to get cover saves. Jump, Shoot, Jump. Its what Tau do.
*that awkward moment when snake eyes are staring at you when you JSJ*
You know, even with 4d6 roll, there's still *that chance* that you land on the cover you plan to hide behind. With the base of this thing the size that it is, that's all the more likely.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 23:24:52
Subject: Re:Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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The Heldrake is still inevitably more survivable than the Riptide. People have ways to get weapons with instant death on the board, ala psykers, or necrons can tarpit you with scarabs and take away your armor save, in which case you're almost naked. Heldrake can't be assaulted by scarabs, can't have a force weapon ID, and has a 5++ with basically FnP in "It Will not Die!", which is still cheaper than if you got your riptide with FnP.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 23:31:17
Blood Ravens 2nd Company (C:SM)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 23:27:31
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran
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Therion wrote:I agree with most of what Asmodai here is preaching.
The thing that is irrelevant though is whether the Riptide is 'better' than the Heldrake or not. They belong to different armies so unless you're thinking which army to ally with then the question is pointless.
The important thing to understand here though is that just like the Heldrake, the Riptide is the best unit in its own army codex, and that it will be taken in threes by practically every semi or fully competitive player all over the world. It'll take some people a bit more time to understand but in the end everyone's spamming these things.
Asmodai has gone through pretty much all the pros and cons of this thing except that the Riptide's ion weapon with great AP really benefits from friendly marker lights that remove the cover saves from the Riptide's targets. When you factor that stuff in the output becomes more fearsome.
I also agree that 555 points (tbh they will cost a bit more than 555 since you'll buy FNP and interceptor for each one) isn't a big investment at all in 1850 points when you consider what you get. I think three Riptides, especially if they're getting cover saves from something, are pretty much impossible to be shot down in a competitive game. By impossible I mean horribly points inefficient, so just by making the decision to shoot them you're already losing the game.
How I've adjusted my competitive Necron army is dropped all Stormteks and the foot lord and lead the army with a single Destroyer Lord and bumped the assault element to 16 Wraiths. I still get 5 flyers and 3 Barges and plenty of boys with these in 1.85K. I wouldn't be surprised if one or two Riptides survive every game but I'm still confident the game is winnable by a good enough margin.
Thank you Therion, it's nice to have somebody who actually understands how 40k works when played competitively. I wasn't sure how markerlights worked but I know they can remove your cover save entirely for two markerlights; this is brutal.
I'm not sure about FNP because it's 35 points, but interceptor is a no brainer for 5 points. Any Drop Pod armies/Deep Strikers would be utterly shafted by Intercepting Riptides dropping AP2 pie plate. Question being, can you Nova/overcharge in your opponent's turn?
Points inefficiency, exactly the concept that these people fail to grasp. Shooting the Riptide is already fail that will cost games.
I don't feel Necrons matches up well against the new tau (Skyfire aplenty, ID on your Wraiths from pie-plate Riptides, Annihilation Barges utterly outranged by everything in the codex) as missile/ rail broadsides utterly shaft your flyers and the ABs can't really hurt armour 13 or Riptides reliably.
easysauce wrote:lol really?
something with the same stat line as a dreadknight but +1 wound is now unkillable?
cover??? really, on a rip tide? good luck with that.
yes its a great unit, but op? not even close
yes... if you can only think of walking 24" plasma gunners up to it, you are SOL.. because thats a horrible strategy for anything, let alone the rip tide. Assuming hat gian model will always be behind cover is also just more debbie downer talk
last I checked, lascannons are still going to cover the whole board, and really? you wonder how in the heck im going to get a force weapon into CC with a rip tide? its not that hard... transports, jet packs, deep strike, and so on and so on.
for example... 3 riptides = 555
3 dreadknigghts, 2 with jump packs, = 540pts
the rips will get one turn to somehow do 12 2+/5++ wounds, magically somewhow with their "invicible pie plates that nothing can survive"
turn 2 two rips will die to the DK, turn three the last one dies with two dread knights left over.
same thing with any FMC, FPC or anything with mobility and hitting power (which is plenty)
No, Lascannons are 48", they do NOT cover the whole board. On Hammer and Anvil and Vanguard Strike you can deploy up to 48" horizontally and 8' diagonally. This is more than enough to place your Riptides far enough from something that they cannot shoot back. Even so, you probably want them absorbing firepower up front because 3++.
I wouldn't be so daft to shoot your Dreadknights, you've just ported into rapid fire range of the rest of my army, while the Riptides wipe two ten man squads of Strikes a turn.
samuele999 wrote:What about the simple terminators with storm shields and thunder hammers, or just hordes of orks? You aint going to kill that many ork boys at 180pts for 30, or what about pycannons, or a vanguard veteran squad, or draigo or even better lysander with his storms shield buddies? running 3, leaves you with little pts for anti air or any other shizzle in 1500pts? And because tournament boards are so small you are going to get assaulted by so many things that don't care if you kill 20 of them per turn.
Footslogging, TH/SS are dead. Deepstriking, TH/SS are dead. Land-Raidering, TH/SS are dead. Storm-Ravening, TH/SS are dead. The only safe way to get them into combat with Tau is a Caestus Assault Ram and if you do you assault one unit and kill it you die next turn to Ap 2 pie plates. Also, congrats on using 500+ points to kill a single 185 point model.
Vanguard veterans is auto-lose. I don't see how Ork boys are a threat, you can easily take out thirty boyz a turn with Riptides alone. Draigo in a paladinstar is just a 1000 point massacre waiting to happen. Psycannons are 24". Riptides are 72". Running three leaves you... oh, 945 points in a 1500 point game? If you played any tournaments or even competitive games recently, you will notice the utter uselessness of assault in 6th edition. Also Tournament boards are standard 6' by 4', I'm not sure what tournaments you're playing at...
samuele999 wrote:But how many fire warriors and markerlights you going to have if you spent at least 600 pts on mc? you gonna need large volumes of fire to deal with that. Having3 uber unit is asking for some on to be that 1 person that is really good them units and wipe them out with ease, having 1 or 2 yes, but 3 is just silly!
Or what about landraiders, if you meet a landraider its gonna be in ur face unless you have a hammerhead, which is unlikely, ur gonna be trying with a str 9 ordance which is unlikely to hurt it, while it either hurts you with lascannons or lets out a nice assault unit.
555 points, or probably 570 since interceptor is a no-brainer. In 1850, three. In 1500 possibly two, depending on the other options.
Why is having a hammerhead unlikely? It's very likely I'll have two or one with Longshot then where is your Land Raider now?
Grey Templar wrote:12 Fire Warriors using a single Markerlight to go the BS4 will kill 1 terminator at long range a round. You should have 2 turns of shooting at long range and 2 at short range. Thats 6 dead TH/SS terminators from a single fire warrior squad before they get butchered in melee. Assuming the Terminators are gunning for the fire warriors, which is unlikely.
Thats only 120ish points depending on exact upgrades to kill 240 points of Terminators.
The Riptide can use its fast movement to avoid melee threats and focus on its targets.
And you will be taking Hammerheads. From the look of it the competitive layout will be 1 squad of Broadsides with Skyfire upgrade and a couple Hammerheads for long range anti-tank. The broadsides can still take out medium and light vehicles as well.
Precisely.
samuele999 wrote:And what game do you play where terminators are not going to deepstrike? and if they don't you are not going to get 4 turns of shooting at them, at max your 30 inches away, if I run that's only 3 turns till I get to you. And if I use a landraider, which you will have little to counter i can easily catch you!
It's only three turns of laying down Ap 2 Str 8 pie plates on your walking/nicely clumped up/walking terminators. Seriously, do you even list?
Grey Templar wrote: samuele999 wrote:And what game do you play where terminators are not going to deepstrike? and if they don't you are not going to get 4 turns of shooting at them, at max your 30 inches away, if I run that's only 3 turns till I get to you. And if I use a landraider, which you will have little to counter i can easily catch you!
Deep Striking is a bad idea most of the time. A unit with a footprint that big and that vulnerable to torrents of fire is going to be toast.
Deep Strike is not the amazing tactical tool that GW and many newbs think it is, its an occasionally useful ability.
A-fething-men.
JWhex wrote:So much bickering and theory hammer in this thread. I dont find the comparison between the riptide and heldrake informative at all. Taking 3 riptides is a huge amount of points for only 3 models, I dont think it will be nearly as hard to kill as some people say.
If there is a lot of terrain on the board then the riptide will be hampered somewhat where it can move. People assuming its going to get cover saves must be assuming whatever is shooting at it is not moving.
Tau ignore cover saves on two markerlights.
MrMoustaffa wrote:Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Riptide T6
I can kill it with lasguns.
That is all that matters.
It WILL happen
Probably in some parallel dimension when I deep strike my Riptides in front of your massed IG blob for some FRF,SRF action
Grey Templar wrote:yeah, but its even more unlikely than killing the Dreadknight. It can get FnP on top of the good save.
at 35 points, I'd just put it into getting another Riptide, it's 1/6th the cost.
The Shadow wrote:It's a close call now, but I think the Riptide will end up victorious in the long term. The Heldrake's big advantage is that it's a flier and hence most things have to snap-fire at it. But as more and more armies get updated, we'll see more and more fliers which is more stuff in the sky that can take down the Heldrake.
It's already victorious with Tau being the slags of the universe and Skyfire Interceptor available on every unit in the codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: valace2 wrote:A Dreadknight kills a Riptide. A Dreadknight can not kill a heldrake.
Heldrake wins.
This isn't a comparison of what a Dreadknight can or cannot kill. Triple Dreadknight is an interesting build, but only mid-tier.
jifel wrote:Asmodai Asmodean wrote: jifel wrote:This guys tough, not THAT tough. Poisoned gants, enfeebled and smash, or just ignore and Dakka all work. If I see one, I do the same as versus all tau. Kill the troops and bunker down while every non scoring unit rushes him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This guys tough, not THAT tough. Poisoned gants, enfeebled and smash, or just ignore and Dakka all work. If I see one, I do the same as versus all tau. Kill the troops and bunker down while every non scoring unit rushes him.
Poisoned Gants are not going to get anywhere near it. You can't ignore it, because it's dropping 3x pie plate on you every turn. The only thing that stands a chance is Winged Hive Tyrant assaulting it, but congrats you're tying up a 185 point unit with a 260 point unit and nerfing your own firepower the rest of the game.
Ymgarl Genestealers could do well, or the Doom. Let's make that bad boy take two 3d6 leadership checks, then take some Ymgarls to the chin. Hes tied up in assault for at least one turn, at which point it's a third Ld check before he gets to even shoot the doom.
But, I think I could ignore it. I have plenty of gants, and I can kill his troops well enough.
Doom of Malantai comes down... and gets annihilated by interceptor from all the Tau units. Oh, you didn't even get to my shooting phase. How many wounds was it you had before Spirit Leech?
Ymargl could pop out and... oh wait. BS 2 Overwatch from three supporting units. How many Ymargls did you put in that unit again?
You won't have plenty of gants for long with the amount of pie-plate and submunitions rounds dropping on them.
rems01 wrote:Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Your Lascannons have to deploy on the front line if they want to shoot one corner, and will be completely outranged by the other. Your Devastators will be dead by turn three, because 3 Pie Plates> Lascannons against a 3++ invuln. And Riptides can move and shoot, while you cannot reposition or have to snap shot.
It's either the pie plates or the 3++, not both in one turn. This makes a significant difference.
As I understood you can overcharge your weapon and Nova Charge to get the save.
Xyrael wrote: Grey Templar wrote:JWhex wrote:So much bickering and theory hammer in this thread. I dont find the comparison between the riptide and heldrake informative at all. Taking 3 riptides is a huge amount of points for only 3 models, I dont think it will be nearly as hard to kill as some people say.
If there is a lot of terrain on the board then the riptide will be hampered somewhat where it can move. People assuming its going to get cover saves must be assuming whatever is shooting at it is not moving.
The Riptide has a Jetpack move, of course we will assume its going to get cover saves. Jump, Shoot, Jump. Its what Tau do.
*that awkward moment when snake eyes are staring at you when you JSJ*
You know, even with 4d6 roll, there's still *that chance* that you land on the cover you plan to hide behind. With the base of this thing the size that it is, that's all the more likely.
ace101 wrote:The Heldrake is still inevitably more survivable than the Riptide. People have ways to get weapons with instant death on the board, ala psykers, or necrons can tarpit you with scarabs and take away your armor save, in which case you're almost naked. Heldrake can't be assaulted by scarabs, can't have a force weapon ID, and has a 5++ with basically FnP in "It Will not Die!", which is still cheaper than if you got your riptide with FnP.
Lol, scarabs reaching the Riptides would be a minor miracle in an of itself. Do you know what Template weapons do to them?
The only things that could concievably reach Riptides to assault them are FMCs, and even then it's a waste of a FMC because you're tying up a 185 point model with a 250+ point model, preventing the FMC from going after the juicy targets.
Helldrakes are AV12 HP3 vehicles that can get one-shotted by skyfire weapons. They will get shot down by massed Broadside anti-air.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 23:47:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/08 23:54:34
Subject: Riptides are the new Helldrake
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Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight
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Put a six man squad of terminators in the same firing line and see how long they fare against massed twin linked s4 fire.
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Space Wolves: 3770
Orks: 3000
Chaos Daemons: 1750
Warriors of Chaos: 2000
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