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The chimera is arguably the best troop transport (that's not a flier) in the game. If your Imperial Guard don't want it then my Chaos Space Marines will gladly take it.

Chimeras put out a lot of dakka and have a decent front AV and they can carry triple plas/melta vets. It's a no-brainer from my side of things if you're running anything but Air Cavalry or Foot Horde.

Make sure to take more than one, as with any transport. Most enemies will recognize the threat of a highly mobile plasma wagon of death and focus it down.

But remember, it's relative. For CSM to have chimera at the same transport to troops cost ratio, they'd have to cost 150 points.

Would you still want them then, or would you spring more points for the much better land raider?

"But remember, it's relative. For CSM to have chimera at the same transport to troops cost ratio, they'd have to cost 150 points."

The cost of the transport should be independent of what rides in it. The vehicle should be judged on its own merits. There's no way a Chimera should be priced 150 for marines. These arguments are how I imagine we ended up with the Vendetta.

 Ailaros wrote:
But remember, it's relative. For CSM to have chimera at the same transport to troops cost ratio, they'd have to cost 150 points.

Would you still want them then, or would you spring more points for the much better land raider?

I don't see how that's true at all. Inquisitorial Chimeras cost the same as IG ones and they both can carry terminators. That doesn't mean that the Chimeras were priced in relation to the fact that they can carry them.

Worth the turret HB upgrade, or save points and run the stock multilaser?

Depends on how much you plan on moving the particular Chimera. If your list has a lot of air cav, you may make your Chimeras a parking lot of shooty doom. But for pure mech, you might be moving a lot more. In some cases, there is an argument for the HF. Because HFs own face in 6th edition

It's a good habit to never spend points on upgrades to chimeras , leave them at the 55 point dirt cheap ness - you would honestly be better off taking , I don't know - more plasma and melta

Cool, thanks.

Are we really going to say that if rhinos got to carry terminators, they should still be 30 points? Are we really going to say that if guard players got access to land raiders that any guard player would ever field one at the 250 point price point? Or a storm raven?

Of course the cost of a transport is relative to what it is actually capable of transporting. That Ward made an oversight when he forgot to block terminators from riding in all non-land raiders doesn't mean that we should throw everything else out the window.

I mean, would sternguard in a drop pod still cost 300 points if they didn't have access to combi-weapons? Would it still be fair to charge only pittance a model if guardians could replace any weapon with a special weapon, or if guardsmen could take fearless?

You have to consider anything in a codex not only by means of itself, but by what options it has, and by what combinations it can be used in in the codex as a whole.

"Of course the cost of a transport is relative to what it is actually capable of transporting. That Ward made an oversight when he forgot to block terminators from riding in all non-land raiders doesn't mean that we should throw everything else out the window. "

I disagree with this pricing philosophy. Pricing should be balanced across the entire game, not within a single codex. An AV 11 box with no firepower should be cheap no matter which list has it. A box with an AV 12 front and heavy weapon options should cost more than the AV 11 box. Regardless of what goes inside.

I'd argue that they got better relative to their competition...

Plasma Vets are now amazing, Overwatch gives them a little bit more wiggle room against assaults (you don't have to kill EVERY assaulter, just enough to force them out of range!), AV12 got much better relative to AV11, and Multilasers are much better in 6th (for stripping hull points) than they were in 5th.

I can see Ailaros's point, though. I would not pay 30 points for a Rhino when a Chimera is far better for just 20 more points as a guard player.

"I mean, would sternguard in a drop pod still cost 300 points if they didn't have access to combi-weapons?"

Maybe the Sternguard should be cheaper and the weapons cost a lot more. But GW doesn't put that much thought into it.

"You have to consider anything in a codex not only by means of itself, but by what options it has, and by what combinations it can be used in in the codex as a whole. "

No, it's more than that. It also has to be compared across all codices, and against weapons they can't even take. Which GW fails miserably at. Exhibit A: Vendetta.

Martel732 wrote:An AV 11 box with no firepower should be cheap no matter which list has it. A box with an AV 12 front and heavy weapon options should cost more than the AV 11 box. Regardless of what goes inside.

But you're missing the entire point of it.

The purpose of a transport is to transport. Any weapons upgrades it has are ancillary to its main function. Transports are not heavy support choices that exist to be judged on their killing power alone.

Because saying that a chimera should cost the same whether it could transport terminators, only transport guardsmen, or couldn't transport anything at all doesn't make sense, given the kind of unit we're talking about.

"Because saying that a chimera should cost the same whether it could transport terminators, only transport guardsmen, or couldn't transport anything at all doesn't make sense, given the kind of unit we're talking about. "

Okay, we can agree to disagree. Presumably, GW charges something for transport capacity. Or, looking at the Vendetta, maybe not.

Well of course it does. A land raider costs 50% more than a lascannon predetor for the same killing power. I can't believe that it would cost that much more just for some AV14. The only other difference is that the land raider can put down that much firepower while also transporting terminators and disembarking them with an assault ramp.

Once again, just because they screwed up with the vendetta (which basically nobody thinks is expensive enough for something with a transport capability - because that matters) doesn't mean that they screwed up with everything.

I am quite fond of the Chimera. It isn't terribly durable, particularly if your opponent can get side armor on it, but it contributes to a Guard armor saturation strategy. Shots fired at it are shots that aren't fired at your Russes, or Hellhounds, or artillery. I like the weapon options on it (I've been using a hull HF, but it gets close enough to use it so infrequently that I'm thinking a snap-shooting HB might be a better value). I like the sheer amount of fire you can pour out of the top hatch.

I've had good luck with a mixed-infantry strategy, with a blob hanging back to hold my central objective and chimeras full of vets (and the PCS to give them orders once they disembark, since the CCS hangs back with the blob) advancing to seize enemy objectives.

I have mixed feelings about the Chimera. Its most optimal cargo are veterans loaded with special weapons, but you have to get pretty close to use those special weapons which gives up that juicy side armour to the enemy. I know I know, target saturation, but it would be nice if I could get my veterans where I wanted them to be without having to worry about small arms fire blowing up their ride

"Once again, just because they screwed up with the vendetta (which basically nobody thinks is expensive enough for something with a transport capability - because that matters) doesn't mean that they screwed up with everything. "

GW sucks at balancing. Outright sucks. I don't expect a remotely fair game from them anymore. When I want fair, I'll go play Starcraft.

Let's say that your theory is actually the way to go. In this case, the proper thing to do would be to list the transport options under each unit and charge differently from unit to unit. After all, a Land Raider carrying ASM is not as valuable as one carrying assault terminators right?

They already do that, though. The only place that a wave serpent is listed as a transport option is under a few units in just the eldar codex. If anything, universal transports would assume that there wouldn't be any variation between codices, or for there to be a codex: transports, where it listed the different points costs for the different units that could take it as a dedicated transport.

creeping-deth87 wrote:it would be nice if I could get my veterans where I wanted them to be without having to worry about small arms fire blowing up their ride

Yeah, despite being faster than foot infantry now, veterans with special weapons are still a defensive unit. I've found they work best as a punitive weapon against things that get closer to your other stuff.

They're sort of like the pikemen to your hellhound's cavalry or your russes or artillery's cannons.

They list the transport options under each unit, but not a different price. As far as that goes, the rhino should cost more for tactical marines than assault marines.

Martel732 wrote:
They list the transport options under each unit, but not a different price. As far as that goes, the rhino should cost more for tactical marines than assault marines.

It actually does, if you look at the codex. It's a straight up swap for Assault Marines for their jump packs.

Okay then let me rephrase. The rhino should cost more for Sternguard than for Tactical squads. It doesn't.

 Ailaros wrote:
Are we really going to say that if rhinos got to carry terminators, they should still be 30 points? Are we really going to say that if guard players got access to land raiders that any guard player would ever field one at the 250 point price point? Or a storm raven?

Of course the cost of a transport is relative to what it is actually capable of transporting. That Ward made an oversight when he forgot to block terminators from riding in all non-land raiders doesn't mean that we should throw everything else out the window.

I mean, would sternguard in a drop pod still cost 300 points if they didn't have access to combi-weapons? Would it still be fair to charge only pittance a model if guardians could replace any weapon with a special weapon, or if guardsmen could take fearless?

You have to consider anything in a codex not only by means of itself, but by what options it has, and by what combinations it can be used in in the codex as a whole.

Chimeras carry Bulky Ogryns, why not Bulky Terminators? The chimera is clearly larger than the Rhino.

If you want balance I'd say sometimes 11 sides and front is better than 12 front 10 sides. Could be the case in a lot of situations. Chimeras used to only be able to fire the 6 hull mounted lasguns by troops inside regardless of what they are carrying, and you can now fire artillery out the back?!?!

Balance you say? Ha, I laugh at such a notion! How about paying for an open-topped av 10 all around transport for the same rice as a Rhino? The only saving grace of the Trukk is the ever-so-helpful Ramshackle rule. That's an over-priced transport considering the 60 points of models you can put in there.

Saving grace of the trukk is you can assault the turn you get out or it explodes, you can carry mega-nobz in it and get 24" across the board in the first turn. Also with a S5 decent ranged weapon it is head and shoulders above the rhino.

Actually there's a lot going for it; could do with some better upgrade options (deff rolla).
But a point reduction would always be welcome.

I love the heavy flamer on the chimera. Since I'm always closing with the enemy to use my melta and plasmaguns there comes a point when you ate close enough that the heavy flamer becomes gold. The heavy bolter may cause a few wounds throughout a game, but it only takes a si gle heavy flamer template to devastate a unit, especially a xenos or guard unit.
I find that if you are smart and not too attached to your chimeras they will do what you need them to and will last long enough for the vets I side to do their job.. The key is too have enough on the table to matter. One or two will get destroyed right off. Four or five backed with av 14 russes or more heavy support on chimera chassis and vendettas provides too many targets to successfully target all of them. Just remember that everything is expendable. Don't throw your units away but don't be stressed when they blow up and die. It's guard, and there is another ready to fill the gap immediately.

Chimeras are fantastic. They are like mobile bunkers. You hide inside and shoot the awesome weapons it has until it is time to claim objectives or something yucky deep strikes nearby. Like previously stated, it shakes up the armor saturation and keeps the important ones alive longer. I don't leave home without four of them on any given day.

 Jasper wrote:
Saving grace of the trukk is you can assault the turn you get out or it explodes, you can carry mega-nobz in it and get 24" across the board in the first turn. Also with a S5 decent ranged weapon it is head and shoulders above the rhino.

Actually there's a lot going for it; could do with some better upgrade options (deff rolla).
But a point reduction would always be welcome.

I agree with all your points, my post was semi-sarcastic. Hope that got across. I think IA has Looted Rhinos with DR's. DR's on a Looted Tank would actually make it worthwhile. 55 points, coincidentally the same as a Chimera? I'd run 3, more if it was a dedicated transport, which both SM and IG have over Orks: more units can take either as a DT. If only Burnas and TB's could take Trukks . . .

The BA wish they could have open-topped vehicles.....

stewy37 wrote:
The key is too have enough on the table to matter. One or two will get destroyed right off. Four or five backed with av 14 russes or more heavy support on chimera chassis and vendettas provides too many targets to successfully target all of them. ...

What would you suggest balancing with the chimeras in a GK henchmen list? Dreads?