Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 cincydooley wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:
I've never been a big fan of anything digital. I prefer to have the physical copy. What happens if your ipad die's and you have no way to replace it. Or what if your coputer die's. I'd much rather have the physical copy of anything weither its a book or a cd.

This is basically why I don't want to buy anything that's linked to a single device. I don't have to worry about my music being lost because my computer dies because I have it all on 2 separate computers + a backup on an external HDD and it's also on my phone. I'm not overly worried about losing my video games, if Steam goes down it's a problem, but my house could explode and I would still be able to download.....

Yeah....that's pretty much how iTunes works. If you're not worried about steam, you shouldn't be worried about iTunes. And all concerns about "losing it" are IMO silly, as every one can be applied to a regular book as well.

Yes I know that's how iTunes works, however the GW ebook can only be read on an iPad, hence, it is linked to a device family. I can download my iTunes music on my desktop or on my laptop or on my work PC and transfer it to my phone or my mp3 player or whatever. To use a GW ebook, you need an iPad.

If my house burns down, my Intel Sandy Bridge PC may die with all my music and games on the hard drive, but I can then still redownload and play them on my laptop or buy a new computer that isn't an Intel Sandy Bridge desktop and still be able to use them. That is what makes digital products really useful IMO. GW's ebooks are not the same.

BUT, GW have missed that boat by making it iPad only. I don't trust the lifespan of an iPad and when the iPad dies, who wants to have to buy another one specifically because all your products can only be viewed through one?

If they made digital versions that were actually cross platform, even if it required some proprietary software to read, I'd be all over the GW digital products (even if I do think some of them are overpriced... though I think the print versions are overpriced too so I'm not singling out digital on that point).

You lost me here. "Lifespan of an ipad?" Really? I have an 11 year old iPod that still works great and is still supported by iTunes. I think you'd be really hard pressed to find any computer based electronics with longer life spans than iDevices.

I could believe that an ipod would last 11 years, I'm not so convinced an iPad could last that same distance. It's larger and more susceptible to damage, it's battery is probably going to be dead in 3-4 years and it'll be outdated in a couple of years. If it breaks, the battery dies, randomly stops working, the buttons cease to function or it is simply incapable of performing day to day tasks, you're locked in to holding on to it, repairing it or buying a new one (if they even still exist) in order to not lose your entire book collection.

You may have had an ipod for 11 years, but an ipad is a different kettle of fish which I don't really want to gamble hundreds of dollars worth of ebooks on, and frankly, 11 years ain't all that long, I have my Space Wolves codex from almost 20 years ago and still occasionally flip through it, I have my Epic 40k rulebooks from some 16 years ago, I have my Citadel Annual from 1998.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
... my Intel Sandy Bridge PC ...

Why not just say your PC?

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
... my Intel Sandy Bridge PC ...

Why not just say your PC?

Because I was trying to draw a more appropriate parallel to an ipad. An iPad is a specific computing device, a tablet, and it's a specific type of tablet, an Apple one. I didn't say "PC" because you can buy various types of PC with different architecture using components from different companies. If my PC dies, I don't have to buy another Intel x64 desktop one to replace it and regain access to my other digital goodies, but if your iPad dies you can't just go buy ANY tablet or ANY computing device, you have to buy a tablet and it has to be an Apple one and while PCs have existed for decades, what's to say iPads will exist for decades as well (even if "tablets" still exist, "ipads" may not).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
... my Intel Sandy Bridge PC ...

Why not just say your PC?

Because I was trying to draw a more appropriate parallel to an ipad. An iPad is a specific computing device, a tablet, and it's a specific type of tablet, an Apple one. I didn't say "PC" because you can buy various types of PC with different architecture using components from different companies. If my PC dies, I don't have to buy another Intel x64 desktop one to replace it and regain access to my other digital goodies, but if your iPad dies you can't just go buy ANY tablet or ANY computing device, you have to buy a tablet and it has to be an Apple one and while PCs have existed for decades, what's to say iPads will exist for decades as well (even if "tablets" still exist, "ipads" may not).

I know what building a PC is Last desktop I had I built myself.

I just thought you were pointing out your processor to show off or something

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
I know what building a PC is Last desktop I had I built myself.

I just thought you were pointing out your processor to show off or something

LOL, nope, it's only an i3-2100, tis pretty fast, but it's a budget CPU rather than high end and not worthy of showing off.

It would have been more appropriate if I could have said "Dell Inspiron" or "HP Pavilion" or something similar, but I have never owned a prebuilt computer in my life so it would make a liar out of me

I just showed my wife the price of the Death from the Skies book on the GW site and then asked her what she thought a digital copy might be sold for. She is crazy about her kindle so she stated that digital versions of books on there are usually sold for at least 20-30% less than a physical copy. I then went to the itunes store (I don't own an ipad) and showed her the savings one will find on the digital copy, a whopping 1 cent (for those of us in the States). She literally laughed.

Ok, my wife normally laughs a little at me for collecting little green men (Orkz), but I get the feeling that most anyone outside of the hobby would immediately have a similar response. Honestly, I find being charged full price for a digital copy that can only be used on expensive devices produced by one select company downright insulting. I love what GW makes but their business decisions over the last couple of years are near insufferable.

 Sencho wrote:
Ok, my wife normally laughs a little at me for collecting little green men (Orkz), but I get the feeling that most anyone outside of the hobby would immediately have a similar response. Honestly, I find being charged full price for a digital copy that can only be used on expensive devices produced by one select company downright insulting.

This is because the vast majority of consumers are unaware that the cost of the printing and transportation of a book only accounts for under 10% of its purchase price. The vast majority of the price goes to the writing, editing, copyediting, artwork - both interior and cover, and then of course the retailer. Apple and Amazon take 30% of that off the top, plus they charge the originator a "transmission fee" based upon the amount of data they run through their servers. With the GW books, it's pretty hefty as they range between .5-1.5G a book...because GW isn't peddling mere PDFs of their books. They're entirely separate editions that allow you to click on the images, zoom in - they occasionally contain added content.

The reason your wife thinks a book should be 20-30% the price of a physical book is because Amazon has been using the lower prices as a loss leader for years in order to create a big market for digital books, the selling point being that they are cheaper. The downside to this is that anyone who has the audacity to sell their book for what it is worth ends up getting fileted for ripping off the customer by customers who haven't the foggiest about what the business model really looks like.

Source: I'm a professional writer with a number of close friends in the gaming industry.

Massawyrm wrote:

 Sencho wrote:
Ok, my wife normally laughs a little at me for collecting little green men (Orkz), but I get the feeling that most anyone outside of the hobby would immediately have a similar response. Honestly, I find being charged full price for a digital copy that can only be used on expensive devices produced by one select company downright insulting.

This is because the vast majority of consumers are unaware that the cost of the printing and transportation of a book only accounts for under 10% of its purchase price. The vast majority of the price goes to the writing, editing, copyediting, artwork - both interior and cover, and then of course the retailer. Apple and Amazon take 30% of that off the top, plus they charge the originator a "transmission fee" based upon the amount of data they run through their servers. With the GW books, it's pretty hefty as they range between .5-1.5G a book...because GW isn't peddling mere PDFs of their books. They're entirely separate editions that allow you to click on the images, zoom in - they occasionally contain added content.

The reason your wife thinks a book should be 20-30% the price of a physical book is because Amazon has been using the lower prices as a loss leader for years in order to create a big market for digital books, the selling point being that they are cheaper. The downside to this is that anyone who has the audacity to sell their book for what it is worth ends up getting fileted for ripping off the customer by customers who haven't the foggiest about what the business model really looks like.

Source: I'm a professional writer with a number of close friends in the gaming industry.

A very interesting read. It would be nice if that would be the end of it, but, unfortunately, this is Dakka

I call BS on that, most books are written on Computers anyway, it is the book publisher that sets the book price, and the costs are known before hand, like the costs of the manuscript.

And strangely i would just have an PDF rulebook for the rules, not for knick knaks that don't add value.

Massawyrm wrote:
Source: I'm a professional writer with a number of close friends in the gaming industry.

Me too, and the PDF's from the companies I have experience with don't cost as much as the physical copies.

Digital copies should not cost as much as physical products, and GW's own physical book products shouldn't cost as much as they do either.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Me too, and the PDF's from the companies I have experience with don't cost as much as the physical copies.

Right. But not because they don't cost substantially less to produce; it's because people believe the physical production costs are higher than they are.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Digital copies should not cost as much as physical products, and GW's own physical book products shouldn't cost as much as they do either.

I won't argue you on the second point as I have no direct knowledge of GW's margins. But the first part is pure belief, stemming from the fact that, despite being a writer, you seem to think that the material value of a thing trumps the immaterial; that the work of a guy who makes your shoes is worth more than a guy who writes a book. But we know that's not always true. To see this in action, take a look a Blu-ray prices. Each Blu-ray costs something like .50 cents to produce, but new and popular ones cost between $30-$40, while older, less popular ones cost as low as $5 - all regardless of how much the movie cost to make. Why? Because we hold that the immaterial thing on the disc has value apart from the plastic it cost to make it. We're willing to pay more for a newer movie we love than an older one, despite it costing the same small amount to physically produce it. But put that same $40 movie online for streaming and download and people won't pay any more than $15 for it. Somehow, that .50 cents of plastic adds $25 of value in the mind of the buyer, because they think it is worth more if they can hold it. It doesn't play any different on my system. And the only difference between my $41 SM codex and my $41 Digital Codex is that my digital codex is actually up to date with new units and errata. Guess which one I use more often.

Whether or not the codexes should cost that much is a different argument altogether.

Translation- I can charge what I want it's not me its them.
/sigh. I'm still not paying full for digital copy. Main reason being its not real.

From friends in the publishing industry ebooks can even be more expensive than paper books

that's because (according to them) the physical costs of printing/shipping etc runs to about 7-15% of the retail cost of the book (low print runs & higher quality books are at the upper end of that)

but you have to remember that in the EU at least ebooks are liable for VAT of 3-21%

(3% if you buy from Amazon which runs out of Luxemburg or 5.5 % if your publisher sells out of France)

So a publisher selling books out of the UK probably gets more cash per copy from physical books than ebooks

"Not Real," eh?

Care to elaborate on that?

Massawyrm wrote:
But the first part is pure belief, stemming from the fact that, despite being a writer, you seem to think that the material value of a thing trumps the immaterial; that the work of a guy who makes your shoes is worth more than a guy who writes a book.

No, it's stemming from the idea that producing a book and then printing it and shipping it around the world, and producing a book and not printing it don't cost the same amount...


Regardless of the actual amount of the cost difference, people are not going to perceive the digital product as being worth as much. Not because they value 'immaterial' things less, but because they see the physical production as being an added expense... because it only makes sense that if you remove the last step of the production process (ie: actually making the physical product) and the costs of shipping and storage, that the product should cost less. And so they expect to see some tangible sign of that cost difference reflected in the final price.

As with your downloads example, people largely don't know how big that difference actually is, and most of them won't particularly care. They just expect a difference that feels 'correct' to account for the difference in the product.

Insaniak pretty much nailed it.

The digital copy doesn't have to sit in a warehouse taking up inventory space (and costing money whilst it does that). It doesn't have to be shipped anywhere (costing money for each time that happens). It doesn't have to be printed and bound (costing money each time that happens). There are a whole stack of associated costs on top of the creation of the book that are added to the cost of a physical copy.

This is why a physical copy should cost more than a digital copy because it is actually more expensive to produce.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
From friends in the publishing industry ebooks can even be more expensive than paper books

that's because (according to them) the physical costs of printing/shipping etc runs to about 7-15% of the retail cost of the book (low print runs & higher quality books are at the upper end of that)

but you have to remember that in the EU at least ebooks are liable for VAT of 3-21%

(3% if you buy from Amazon which runs out of Luxemburg or 5.5 % if your publisher sells out of France)

So a publisher selling books out of the UK probably gets more cash per copy from physical books than ebooks

Correct.

I work in publishing and have worked on iPad-only pitches. The economics are terrible, because Apple take up to 30% and there is 20 % VAT in the UK on eBooks, compared to 0% VAT on printed books. THat eliminates most of the print and distribution savings straight away. The stories you hear from amazon about millions being made on eBooks are mostly BS; most publishers are losing money on eBooks, but they have to support them to stay in the market.

For all their faults, GW pay tax in the UK, and pay UK-rate VAT, unlike many other bigger companies and many of the coffee shops on your high street - and of course Amazon.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
For all their faults, GW pay tax in the UK, and pay UK-rate VAT, unlike many other bigger companies and many of the coffee shops on your high street - and of course Amazon.

Which is why GW's eBooks cost more in Australia than in the UK.

Wait...

As someone said before low print runs will cost more per copy - and Death from the Skies will not be published in anything like the numbers of a top 10 paperback and will have colour photos in high res to boot. Costs per edition are likely to be quite high.

While I accept there is still a large cost in e-book publication, once you hit a break-even point there are no additional costs unlike with physical books. Sell out your first 1,000 copies and it costs real money to get a further 1,000 books into the market place - print runs, distribution, storage etc. E-books? No real additional cost that I can see.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Insaniak pretty much nailed it.

The digital copy doesn't have to sit in a warehouse taking up inventory space (and costing money whilst it does that). It doesn't have to be shipped anywhere (costing money for each time that happens). It doesn't have to be printed and bound (costing money each time that happens). There are a whole stack of associated costs on top of the creation of the book that are added to the cost of a physical copy.

This is why a physical copy should cost more than a digital copy because it is actually more expensive to produce.

The 10% average I mentioned earlier covers all of that. Your argument exists in a vacuum that assumes all of these costs are higher than they are, that the books magically format themselves (that no added personnel are needed to convert, upload and monitor online sales) and that there is no such thing as a "transmission fee". At the end of the day an e-book ends up either marginally cheaper or marginally more expensive, depending - unless it is art heavy, at which point Amazon's .15 cent a MB transmission fee can cause even a modest 20mb PDF (like the more compressed codexes you can find online) to cost $3 more before they take their 30% of the purchase price. I have no idea what kind of negotiated deal GW has with Apple to transmit those Gigabyte monsters, but I can guarantee you it ain't cheap.

The margins of profit in publishing are slim. They always have been. That's why it's a numbers game. Think about this for a second: if e-books really did cost significantly cheaper to produce, why has the industry been so sluggish to move to it? Cheaper books means more sales. They should have been stampeding to embrace it; phasing out physical books and offering digital editions that are better and earlier than their physical counterparts. But they aren't. Because they actually understand the numbers that you guys are fudging in your heads.

The argument exists in a setting where an ecodex is priced $40 higher than previous releases for the sole reason that the print version is a hardcover...

And that we're dealing with Amazon (or similar non-native/non-whole owned digital distribution networks), which not everyone (including GW) are.

Y'know what? Let's look at some hard covers and PDF releases hey (all prices USD$)?

Pathfinder RPG (Paizo) - $49.99 (hardback), $9.99 (PDF)
Only War Core Rulebook (FFG) - $59.99 (hardback), $30 (PDF)
Total Warfare (Catalyst) - $39.95 (hardback), $15 (PDF)

And something at random (that is Amazon):

Inferno (by Dan Brown) - $17.49 (hardback), $9.99 (Kindle).

GW are also not going to get much sympathy for Apple taking a cut of their pie, since that's a problem that they choose.

Or for the conversion and transmission costs that come from choosing to turn a codex into over a gigabyte of bloatware.

So how do you all feel about Digital Copies of video games? I know on PSN, they're pretty much the exact same cost as a physical copy.l

Also, FWIW, there was a considerable amount of extra work that had to be put in to make the eCodexes, as they're not just straight PDF copies.

 cincydooley wrote:
So how do you all feel about Digital Copies of video games? I know on PSN, they're pretty much the exact same cost as a physical copy.l

Also, FWIW, there was a considerable amount of extra work that had to be put in to make the eCodexes, as they're not just straight PDF copies.

It depends on the game. If it's a console game, I feel like a digital version is worth less since I no longer have the option to resell. On a PC resale is usually restricted by DRM so the digital version is worth about the same as the physical. This changes if the physical game comes with something else that adds value beyond a plastic case and disk; an attractive (faux) leather case for a game that I think is really amazing could be something I would enjoy keeping.

Some people love having shelves full of books. Some people love having shelves of movies. I'm now going to do something more productive and see if anyone has any advice on last minute add-ons to get for Myth.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And that we're dealing with Amazon (or similar non-native/non-whole owned digital distribution networks), which not everyone (including GW) are.

Y'know what? Let's look at some hard covers and PDF releases hey (all prices USD$)?

Pathfinder RPG (Paizo) - $49.99 (hardback), $9.99 (PDF)
Only War Core Rulebook (FFG) - $59.99 (hardback), $30 (PDF)
Total Warfare (Catalyst) - $39.95 (hardback), $15 (PDF)

And something at random (that is Amazon):

Inferno (by Dan Brown) - $17.49 (hardback), $9.99 (Kindle).

Yup, as has been pointed out, a PDF sold direct is far cheaper to make and will cost less at retail.

We buy our GW stuff from discount places, like Dark Sphere, because they're way cheaper. Works for us. But what we don't do is go to a GW store in a swish mall, or the iTunes store, and moan about the price. Because (a) there's a readily visible rationale for the price and (b) it ain't gonna change, so best to work with it.

Wrong, I tell manufacturers if I'm dissatisfied with their product or price. Most business want feed back so they can better adjust their products accordingly. That's how this system is supposed to work. We as the customer tell them what we want, they make it, and we buy it. Just becuase a few companies want to beat you over the head with their contrary idea of we can do what we want and you'll like it or else doesn't mean I'm not going to voice my complaint.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And that we're dealing with Amazon (or similar non-native/non-whole owned digital distribution networks), which not everyone (including GW) are.

Y'know what? Let's look at some hard covers and PDF releases hey (all prices USD$)?

Pathfinder RPG (Paizo) - $49.99 (hardback), $9.99 (PDF)
Only War Core Rulebook (FFG) - $59.99 (hardback), $30 (PDF)
Total Warfare (Catalyst) - $39.95 (hardback), $15 (PDF)

And something at random (that is Amazon):

Inferno (by Dan Brown) - $17.49 (hardback), $9.99 (Kindle).

So for those items, the publishers feel that the physical aspect of the book accounts for 50-80% of the books value.

I'll draw a parallel to CD's. How much is a CD in store? Usually in the area of $15-20 USD. How much do 99% of albums cost on iTunes? $10. Even taking into account Apples 30% cut, we see an immediate drop in price between 30-50%

Massawyrm wrote:
At the end of the day an e-book ends up either marginally cheaper or marginally more expensive, depending - unless it is art heavy, at which point Amazon's .15 cent a MB transmission fee can cause even a modest 20mb PDF (like the more compressed codexes you can find online) to cost $3 more before they take their 30% of the purchase price.

That seems pretty steep, but then how much does it cost to get a paper version printed and shipped to a distributor and what percentage share do they take? I bet they get it for at least the 30% cut too.

We all agree that the cost to develop the e-book and paper books are equivalent (bar extra digital content, and assuming similar proofreading because digital can always be fixed later), but I can't see how sending a digital file through a reseller can cost more than printing and sending a tangible object through a courier or mail service.


The other issue is in worth; we know that value isn't related to production costs, but we also know that many people don't assign as much value to digital products (because there are less rights regarding resale and reduced accessibility in a lot of cases), therefore it's not unreasonable to expect digital books to be priced lower.

That doesn't take into account VAT in the EU, but that can't be eradicating the difference entirely or you'd see the prices differing in countries where tax isn't paid on e-books whilst paper books are exempt.