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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Insaniak pretty much nailed it.

The digital copy doesn't have to sit in a warehouse taking up inventory space (and costing money whilst it does that). It doesn't have to be shipped anywhere (costing money for each time that happens). It doesn't have to be printed and bound (costing money each time that happens). There are a whole stack of associated costs on top of the creation of the book that are added to the cost of a physical copy.

This is why a physical copy should cost more than a digital copy because it is actually more expensive to produce.

Why do I get the feeling that if someone in charge at GW read this, they'd increase the price of physical books instead of dropping the price of digital ones?

Herzlos wrote:
but then how much does it cost to get a paper version printed and shipped to a distributor and what percentage share do they take? I bet they get it for at least the 30% cut too.

This was my thought as well, saying Apple takes a 30% cut is pretty immaterial unless physical retailers are taking less than 30% on wholesale -> retail.

Yes, Apple takes 30%, but it's not like you are selling the physical copies to retailers at RRP anyway, you sell the physical copies at a wholesale as well, that margin is then in addition to the distribution costs., you'd have to do some work to convince me it costs less than 30% when you add distribution AND retailer margins for physical copies.

People: The price you pay for an item has nothing to do with it's production and distribution costs.

It is entirely, 100%, dependent upon two factors. The amount a buyer is willing to pay for it and the amount a seller is willing to part with it.

As long as GW has customers who are willing to pay $50 for a codex, whether physical or digital, then GW will sell it for that. If for one minute they thought people would pay $100 for a codex you can bet those prices would jump instantly.

You can talk about how production/distribution is only 5-15% of a book. You can point out how Apple/Amazon take 30% of the sale. You can point out how much it costs for a writer to do his thing. You can even throw in things like VAT or other taxes.

But at the end of the day, none of that matters. What matters is how much a group of people are willing to pay.

Someone mentioned complaining about prices to GW. That won't work as long as you are pulling out your wallet. So if you really really want to make an impact: stop buying. They'll get the message and act accordingly.


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 undertow wrote:
Why do I get the feeling that if someone in charge at GW read this, they'd increase the price of physical books instead of dropping the price of digital ones?

Your first mistake is thinking that anyone at GW would expend time and/or effort in reading this thread. Companies know people complain on the Internet; what matters is what they do, not what they say. So, the *only* thing management is going to look at is sales figures. If they can produce a book and it sells beyond their expectations you can be sure that the next book they put out will cost even more.

clively wrote:
As long as GW has customers who are willing to pay $50 for a codex, whether physical or digital, then GW will sell it for that. If for one minute they thought people would pay $100 for a codex you can bet those prices would jump instantly.

The reason complaints about pricing keep popping up is because a lot of us AREN'T willing to pay that, and GWs sales are dropping to prove it.

clively wrote:
Someone mentioned complaining about prices to GW. That won't work as long as you are pulling out your wallet. So if you really really want to make an impact: stop buying. They'll get the message and act accordingly.

The purpose for discussion is that some people feel the prices are justified by actual production and distribution, others aren't.

The "people keep buying it" thing comes up a lot and from looking at GW's financial records, over the past few years the "people keep buying it" argument is starting to falter as their revenue stagnates or drops in the face of rising prices, hence LESS people are buying it.

I personally still buy GW products, but a fraction of what I used to. Back in the day when Codex/Army Book prices were more reasonable, I'd actually buy Army Books for armies I didn't even own just for the sake of reading them. I have a giant stack of Codices/Army Books for armies I've never touched from back then. I haven't done that in years because the price of the silly things has jumped from just being casual spending to being rare spending only if I really really want it.

 cincydooley wrote:
Also, FWIW, there was a considerable amount of extra work that had to be put in to make the eCodexes, as they're not just straight PDF copies.

I think you meant '...a considerable amount of completely unnecessary work...'

The effort of converting the file into iBook format and adding a whole bunch of extra stuff that wasn't needed in the codex in the first place is not going to earn them any more brownie points than the 'Apple takes a cut' thing does.

There are much less work-intensive options.

 insaniak wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Also, FWIW, there was a considerable amount of extra work that had to be put in to make the eCodexes, as they're not just straight PDF copies.

I think you meant '...a considerable amount of completely unnecessary work...'

The effort of converting the file into iBook format and adding a whole bunch of extra stuff that wasn't needed in the codex in the first place is not going to earn them any more brownie points than the 'Apple takes a cut' thing does.

There are much less work-intensive options.

Also last time I checked it doesn't cost as much to pay a team to transpose already digital material into eBooks format as it does to print, package, and ship physical books.

 insaniak wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Also, FWIW, there was a considerable amount of extra work that had to be put in to make the eCodexes, as they're not just straight PDF copies.

I think you meant '...a considerable amount of completely unnecessary work...'

The effort of converting the file into iBook format and adding a whole bunch of extra stuff that wasn't needed in the codex in the first place is not going to earn them any more brownie points than the 'Apple takes a cut' thing does.

There are much less work-intensive options.

I don't consider all of the extras uncessary. I like the pop ups. I like the extra internal links. I wouldn't have bought a PDF version.

@Blue Dagger --> For like, the 45th time, it isn't a simple transposition of the rulebook. There are a lot of other additions that cost man-hours.

 cincydooley wrote:
I don't consider all of the extras uncessary. I like the pop ups. I like the extra internal links. I wouldn't have bought a PDF version.

PDF isn't the only other option. Although you can still have the pop-ups and internal links in PDF. And those won't the unneccesary extras I was talking about.

 cincydooley wrote:

I don't consider all of the extras uncessary. I like the pop ups. I like the extra internal links. I wouldn't have bought a PDF version.

I don't really give a hoot about pop ups, internal links are nice and are extremely quick and easy to do in a PDF (I can't imagine pop ups are terribly difficult and I know internal links are easy to do). If it's taking them significant man hours to do things like links and pop ups, it seems a flaw in their system rather than a feature I'd be willing to pay more to have.

There is no reason why each of the books needs to be a 1gig+ in size and filled with fancy extras.

Wait... their eBooks are over a gig in size? Da eff? I knew their prices were god-awful... its weird that what gets me is how massive they are.

Listen, clearly the fact that I, and many others, like the eBooks means that we are fools that are being taken. As such, there's really no reason for me to continue as part of this explanation of why were wrong for liking them----err... I mean conversation. Cheers.

I don't think anyone is calling you or anyone else a fool. We're just stating our reasoning for why we think it isn't a good buy for us.

I made the mistake of buying the iBook, lousy content, I feel a bit cheated!

Yeah, there's really nothing wrong about liking the Apple eBook codices (except that it means you're a smelly doo-doo head, but that's besides the point.) There are just a lot of people (myself included) that would like a different product. There's also an argument that the digital versions should be less expensive.

A simple PDF, without any additional linking or features (practically nothing more than an official codex scan) would serve me quite well, and I believe other people in this thread agree with me on this. I would happily pay a little extra to get a digital copy of my codex when I bought the physical version, or pay close to the price of a printed codex and simply print my own copy (you could get a reasonable print and binding done at a copy store for $10-15 I believe.)

I wouldn't be surprised if they could put together a basic PDF version of a codex (probably put links in it too) by having a single person working on it over the course of a day, and I'd be amazed if it couldn't be done in a week. A distribution system would probably be the hardest part, because let's face it... they wouldn't go with Wargames Vault or anything like that. It doesn't seem like they would need to sell all that many copies of the PDF in order to make the endeavor profitable however. To sell physical + digital copy, however, wouldn't require any special distribution system beyond slipping a CD into each codex, or keeping a stack behind the register.

GW doesn't appear to be interested in this. They want to put out the shiniest stuff possible, and consumer demand be damned. That's okay. My spending has shifted accordingly. I feel like I really ought to stop spending any money on GW, but I'm chasing that plastic dragon hard.

 cincydooley wrote:
Listen, clearly the fact that I, and many others, like the eBooks means that we are fools that are being taken.

You have missed the point somewhat, I think.

You're perfectly entitled to like them. but whether or not you like a bunch of included extra stuff has no bearing on whether or not that extra stuff is actually necessary, and whether or not adding that stuff in and having a higher price as a result is a good idea.

GW could triple the price of their print codexes so that they could all include a 500-page life story of Makari the Gretchin. Some people might like that, and they would be perfectly entitled to do so. But that wouldn't change the fact that including those extra 500 pages would be completely unnecessary, and that fewer people would buy the resultant product.

 cincydooley wrote:
Listen, clearly the fact that I, and many others, like the eBooks means that we are fools that are being taken. As such, there's really no reason for me to continue as part of this explanation of why were wrong for liking them----err... I mean conversation. Cheers.

No one's calling you a fool for liking them. Don't play the victim card in some sort of odd attempt to take a moral high ground.

They are overpriced. There's no reason why they can't release PDFs (or another e-reader format) for less than the price of the actual Codex, just like many other game companies do.

 insaniak wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Listen, clearly the fact that I, and many others, like the eBooks means that we are fools that are being taken.

You have missed the point somewhat, I think.

You're perfectly entitled to like them. but whether or not you like a bunch of included extra stuff has no bearing on whether or not that extra stuff is actually necessary, and whether or not adding that stuff in and having a higher price as a result is a good idea.

GW could triple the price of their print codexes so that they could all include a 500-page life story of Makari the Gretchin. Some people might like that, and they would be perfectly entitled to do so. But that wouldn't change the fact that including those extra 500 pages would be completely unnecessary, and that fewer people would buy the resultant product.

I would absolutely love it if you could actually buy the rules without having to buy a book which is 95% "other". I do like the pictures and fluff as well and would buy some of them, but I would love it if I could buy the rules separately so I could actually get ALL the rules for the game without paying $750.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They are overpriced. There's no reason why they can't release PDFs (or another e-reader format) for less than the price of the actual Codex, just like many other game companies do.

Except that this is GW and they wouldn't release the electronic version of their product for anything less than the physical product's price and you know it. Even if GW broke down and said, "PDFs for everyone!!!" they'd still charge $50.00 US for each. At least until the next round of price increases when we'll see it all go up. But that's not really unexpected from GW, is it?

to be fair here, if you feel the digital book is over-priced, then the print books must be over-priced as well, and by that logic, everything GW puts out is over-priced as well...
so, if that is how you feel, then we are all fools for buying anything from GW...

personally, i don't buy anything that i feel is a ripoff, and the only things i do buy are the things that i want bad enough to pay for, and look for the best deal i can find...
i'm not buying the digital codex simply because i can get one in print for 25% off...


if the choice was only either or, for full retail, i would go digital thanks to free updates and corrections...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
to be fair here, if you feel the digital book is over-priced, then the print books must be over-priced as well, and by that logic, everything GW puts out is over-priced as well..

Not necessarily. There are things in the digital version that either add or subtract value. The "ipad only" is a huge subtracter of value for many people, even people who do own an ipad it reduces value IMO.

i don't see anything in the digital versions that subtract value...
example???

as i said, though, i can get the print version at a discount...
that 25% off is added value for me, because i'm not a gamer...
if i was, i would want the digital versions for the added bonus of free corrections and updates...
how is something like that a "huge subtractor" for iPad owners???

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
i don't see anything in the digital versions that subtract value...
example???

as i said, though, i can get the print version at a discount...
that 25% off is added value for me, because i'm not a gamer...
if i was, i would want the digital versions for the added bonus of free corrections and updates...
how is something like that a "huge subtractor" for iPad owners???

cheers
jah

The requirement of an iPad is a massive subtraction of value to many customers, some of whom even have iPads.

If GW's only market for this product is iPad owners who are also GW players, then they've shot themselves in the foot by vastly limiting their potential customers.

 jah-joshua wrote:
i don't see anything in the digital versions that subtract value...
example???

as i said, though, i can get the print version at a discount...
that 25% off is added value for me, because i'm not a gamer...
if i was, i would want the digital versions for the added bonus of free corrections and updates...
how is something like that a "huge subtractor" for iPad owners???

cheers
jah

Well, I said it earlier in the thread. If a product is iPad only, the product's lifespan is only as long as the iPad survives unless you want to buy another iPad when it dies. Not just another "tablet", but specifically an "ipad", so if Windows tablets become better than iPads or you want to save some money and get an Android one, too bad, your hundreds of dollars worth of ebooks are ipad only.

Plus not everybody buys the 64 gig or what ever the current highest model is. I usually buy the lower size or mid size devices becuase I never use all the space. Since these codex are so large then it fills it up rather quickly.