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Guys we need to start a kickstarter for Forar. We can send him to the lush facilities that all the celebs go to for "Exhaustion". Hey he might even run into that rich kid who recently got away with killing four people while driving drunk.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/554355176/games-and-gears-battle-boards

You know guys if you convert to dollars and figure price for an Early Bird per 2' x 2' section it comes out to $14.20. You can get a large pizza or a great burger, fries and drink for the same price as one board. Think how long that pizza will last!

Or one could more accurately state that a 6 by 4 board can be bought for ~$101 USD.

I wish I could justify snagging one, as that's a solid deal, but between the holidays and the $Macross Wyrd, Palladium and Flying Frog have tied up, I'm Kickedout for the time being.

 Forar wrote:
Or one could more accurately state that a 6 by 4 board can be bought for ~$101 USD.

I wish I could justify snagging one, as that's a solid deal, but between the holidays and the $Macross Wyrd, Palladium and Flying Frog have tied up, I'm Kickedout for the time being.

You're right. I was using the Euro not British Pounds.

Unlike the rest of the buyers in my local group I've lost most of my confidence in this venture which is really frustrating because I spent good money on this with hopeful expectations as well.

What frustrates me is the non-progress and what feels like PB pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining about the whole ordeal. I want to see finished models not foam and cards. Additionally, the fact that there were convention exclusive pieces but PB couldn't bother to send these to the backers as a good faith measure.

In all honesty, I do have fond memories of PB from my early RPG experiences, so I actually thought they'd make this work, but as time ticks on and there's no real progress, it really starts to worry me. It also confuses me to see all these people wanting the pledge manager reopened while waiting... so throw more money at a project that is seemingly stalled? How will that help?

Anyway, rant over, I'm just really hoping for the best and worried about the worst and wanted to be able to get it out without fanboys chasing me with pitchforks and torches.

According to PB they're supposed to have some info regarding how this production thing will or won't start by the end of the year.

So hopefully we'll at least have a vague roadmap in the next two weeks.

But yeah, I'm not particularly optimistic, but that's been a running theme for over half a year now, and my realism/pessimism hasn't gone unrewarded.

*jazzhands*

So... they'll have a 98% complete roadmap in the next two weeks?

Even if the game is successful I think I'm out based on how they're handling the kickstarter. Thankfully everything I pledged for is either useful in Battletech or a limited edition piece.

Macross is my favorite era by far (although I preferred to RPG during the now partly disavowed Sentinels era... but with my Macross era pilot and VF-1). Obviously, the final quality of what I actually receive will be the biggest determining factor of continued involvement but Palladium has since eaten away significantly at the good will and excitement that the Kickstarter generated for me. I'm not angry anymore like I was with the Max/Miriya debacle but I'm simply not excited anymore either.


@Mike: What size board have you been playing on? For the supposedly smaller "skirmish" scale forces, do you think 3'x4' is enough of a table space? Does that size give you enough room to maneuver but not be completely out of the action with the smaller model count forces in the skirmish side? Obviously the preceeding assumes that they didn't just drop support for that game type since the kickstarter.

Yeah. My crew snagged 8 boxes between us, of which 3 were earmarked for me. I was planning on selling off 1 to recoup some costs, but as the months and bullgak go by, I'm leaning towards making that 1.5-2 boxes (aside from some things I'd love to hold onto).

In the end it'll be a mix of things. How much crap we had to tolerate to finally get those boxes. How good the game actually is. How big the secondary market is (if supply is low and demand is high I might end up selling 2+ boxes outright and accept having to slowly pick up some things again in months to come, like if people are buying the non-Wave 1 stuff at double MSRP, I'd be crazy not to), etc.

I'm definitely not as enthusiastic about the second generation. Assuming they do another Kickstarter, I could see going in for whatever the Battle Cry equivalent tier is, if it exists.

I've seen it said in many places that in life you can get things Good, Fast and Cheap, but you only get to pick 2. Considering the Battle Cry seems to have given us a big pile of figures for around 1/4 MSRP, I'll totally say we got it Cheap. It definitely hasn't come quickly, so we're down to whether or not the end products are good to determine if, by that standard, it was worth it.

I mean, getting that big pile of models for ~66-75% off (less when actually buying from stores of course, though the LE's and non-wave 1 stuff might offset that significantly as well) is great, but against having that cash paying off what's left on my credit card instead? Tough call.

@Warboss: they said that standard play was generally on 4x4 and 4x6 tables. I've got a 3x5 at home that I might try some games on (15 square feet rather than 16, though it might enhance the power of some longer range abilities) but that also depends on how long games take and how high we play in points. They said that 300 points was generally a roughly hour long game, but my crew has been known to play casually enough and ponder/look up rules disputes so we used to have fairly looong 35 soulstone Malifaux games (also the 'standard size'), so I'm thinking we might end up on smaller skirmish games for the rare evening, and just throw down 2 vs 2 on the big 4x6 we play on when the weekend rolls around.

That's another part of what has influenced my views on the giant pile I have coming; if I'm unlikely to ever be responsible for more than 300 points of a force (be it 1vs1 or 1/2 of a 2vs2), why would I want to have more than I could ever stuff into a lineup? Sure, I want to have force building options, but I won't need 500 points worth of Veritechs, y'know?

 Forar wrote:
Yeah. My crew snagged 8 boxes between us, of which 3 were earmarked for me.

You...have a crew?



Are you the leader of the Jets or the Sharks?

Ironically I just mentioned West Side Story for the first time ever on Dakka last night over in the tourney subforum.

@Forar: I can definitely see someone with three battlecry pledges selling one but probably not more. Mike will probably be a much more accurate source of info but it didn't seem like most models were very durable and that the action tended to be more decisive in the demo videos. Two battlecry pledges lets you field a full unit of almost anything right away and I suspect that they'll unfortunately drop the smaller scale. Everything that has been told to us post kickstarter indicates that neither PB Joe ND knew what they were doing exactly despite the disclaimers and assurances.

 Alpharius wrote:
You...have a crew?

[Archer]Do you not?[/Archer]

 warboss wrote:
@Forar: I can definitely see someone with three battlecry pledges selling one but probably not more. Mike will probably be a much more accurate source of info but it didn't seem like most models were very durable and that the action tended to be more decisive in the demo videos. Two battlecry pledges lets you field a full unit of almost anything right away and I suspect that they'll unfortunately drop the smaller scale. Everything that has been told to us post kickstarter indicates that neither PB Joe ND knew what they were doing exactly despite the disclaimers and assurances.

With ~300'ish models coming, my thought process is basically "keep one card worth of everything (4/6 models, generally, more for the 'chaff' units we'll likely be fielding more heavily to round out forces) sell off the rest at retail'ish, buy at retail later as they release if I decide I actually want more of them", and leaving open the possibility that if FPA (as a random example) are going for $60+ per trio I might even kick over some of the extras I've got while the getting is good. Of course, if the demand is low or there are a bunch of resellers driving the price down to barely over what they'll likely be at retail, I'll revisit just what I'm willing to part with.

Other stuff I'll likely hold onto unless they're at some absurd/astronomical price points, such as the 6 Super VTs I've got coming, as I plan to use the extra pair of Super 1D's I snagged as an add on to be able to field a full 2 squadrons of those off the bat (my friends likely won't give a flip if they're not perfectly WYSIWYG as long as it's declared at the start).

Edit: A glance at my spreadsheet has around 300 figures coming, 120-140 of which are lined up for the secondary market, with the aforementioned notes of possibly more if the demand is high and/or supply is low, or the opposite if the market just isn't there. More Zentraedi stuff than RDF, as the latter are what I'm looking forward to playing. The Zentraedi units will just be for participating in larger scale conflicts, or potentially having skirmishes at my place on the occasional impromptu game night that sometimes pops up, where between minimal time, dinner and drinks we probably wouldn't be having more than a mini-game anyway.

And yeah, it's kind of frustrating how happy they were to smooth talk the backers how there wouldn't be any snags for reasons X, Y and Z... and now we're drowning in snags.

I'll say this much; if they have another KS, and if I decide to back it, they are definitely getting the third degree as to why this one won't follow the same pattern, and "like, we totally learned from our mistakes the first time, you can trust us, guy" won't cut it.

I'm really confused by your reasoning. Are you really expecting to be able to sell this stuff on eBay at above retail pricing? That seems very optimistic.

I'm expecting this game to go full Sedition Wars on the secondary market, with no hope of expansions. And that's not my most pessimistic forecast.

Nah, below retail.

But considering I paid ~1/4 MSRP, that isn't exactly a problem. Basically, if I can get $15-20 for a box that's selling for $24-26 online, and I effectively paid $7 for it, I'm still ahead.

And remember, only 6 figure sets are available at launch. I guess I'm somewhat optimistic that there'll be some demand for Ghosts/Lancers/Female Power Armour/etc; things that simply will not be available for potentially half a year or more, aside from whatever ends up on the secondary market.

As I've noted a few times now, if the demand isn't there or the supply is significant, it's not that big a deal. I'm hoping to recoup some costs, I had planned on getting a Showdown (2 sets) anyway. I ended up with the 3rd because their S&H scheme was "pants on head shenanigans", and it only effectively cost me $90 beyond the 7 sets my group was getting anyways.

Edit: to be absolutely clear, no, I'm not expecting to be rolling in cash selling off parts of a Battle Cry. But if I can't sell ~100 of these figures for $90 to recoup even that paltry amount, this game/series will have *serious issues*. As in, Robotech as a franchise will have likely collapsed into obscurity in the next 12 months. If I can get even 1/2-2/3 retail, even better. If some things see a spike in interest or have a low enough supply to drive the price up a little, it's just icing (limited edition figures and Wave 2+ stuff).

Edit 2: I should also note I've already had people message me on other forums where the secondary market has come up, offering to buy at retail cost or better for a few things. I'm not exactly flying this one blind here.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Yeah. My crew snagged 8 boxes between us, of which 3 were earmarked for me.

You...have a crew?



Are you the leader of the Jets or the Sharks?

When I saw this movie as a kid I tried some of the fight moves the next time I got picked on. I came home with a black eye.


I keep seeing sedition wars mentioned. What happened there?

Some delays, some models significantly smaller than expected, material isn't what was expected (but livable), communication was bad...

Sedition Wars poisoned me for any other miniature kickstarter.

rigeld2 wrote:
Some delays, some models significantly smaller than expected, material isn't what was expected (but livable), communication was bad...

Sedition Wars poisoned me for any other miniature kickstarter.

Same here, with the added detail of "that uses 'restic'", though I did go in big on "Deadzone", but that was mostly due to the hard plastic terrain.

Luckily it worked out OK, but it is always a very risky gamble due to 'restic' being involved.

I'm fairly new to miniatures gaming (just started playing Malifaux nearly 2 years ago), so while I'm familiar with pewter and ABS Plastic, I've had minimal contact with various forms of resin. Hopefully we don't get any materials surprises on this project.

 Forar wrote:
I'm fairly new to miniatures gaming (just started playing Malifaux nearly 2 years ago), so while I'm familiar with pewter and ABS Plastic, I've had minimal contact with various forms of resin. Hopefully we don't get any materials surprises on this project.

I hear you on that one. Having played miniatures games for about 20yrs myself I've seen all different materials up to & including a recent experience with this new trollcast restic alloy which I was not remotely impressed with tbh.

That's interesting, Red_Starrise- many posts I've seen from folks who finally get their models in trollcast seem to like the material. I have some models made in it, and think the detail is for the most part fantastic. I haven't yet tried converting them, though, so that may prove challenging. Also, it is not suited to very very thin features- but then, not much other than ABS plastic is.

 Forar wrote:
I'm fairly new to miniatures gaming (just started playing Malifaux nearly 2 years ago), so while I'm familiar with pewter and ABS Plastic, I've had minimal contact with various forms of resin. Hopefully we don't get any materials surprises on this project.

I thought the vef-1 was going to have resin bits.

Yup. Possibly some pewter as well. Apparently the bump to make it a 4 fighter set and include Super and VEF options was apparently going to be more easily done with specific additional parts on limited runs in other materials, since it seems that what we could get from the project is not necessarily what will be available at retail.

But dealing with a few pieces on 6-12 figures isn't nearly the same kind of anxiety as 150-300 of the things possibly being in a new (to me) material, especially given what I've heard from some about working with a few restic variations.

Edit: the fact that the second run of Miriya promo figures was purely in pewter makes me wonder if they'll just stick with that for the VEF/1D pack, rather than trying to mix and match at least 3 materials).

I think it was a waste of time making those promo figures. It's probably one of many reasons that RRT and to a point RK is delayed more than it should be.

 RiTides wrote:
That's interesting, Red_Starrise- many posts I've seen from folks who finally get their models in trollcast seem to like the material. I have some models made in it, and think the detail is for the most part fantastic. I haven't yet tried converting them, though, so that may prove challenging. Also, it is not suited to very very thin features- but then, not much other than ABS plastic is.

I'm not sure where the fault lay on my bad experience tbh. The models were very grainy & much of the facial detail was marred. The retailer did his best to make it right by giving me a brand new set which was marginally better so I figured easiest to just cut my losses & let it go. I seem to be the only one with issues with this company, these figures, & this material so who knows?

Was perusing some of the recent update comments and stumbled across something I thought you guys might find interesting:

Palladium wrote:@ Jason Harris:
“This endeavor already made them $1.44 Million Dollars; plus up to another 100% in backerkit bonuses. So with potentially anywhere from $2 Million to $3 Million already in their pockets - they don't necessarily have to rush to give a product that's already been paid for.”

I just caught this last night, and feel the need to respond and clear something up.
We are NOT sitting on a giant pile of money. After Amazon/Kickstarter fees (8-10%) and the usual 1-2% of backers whose payments didn't go through, the total wasn't much more than $1.3 mil. Then HG and ND get their cuts, and what's left over has to pay not only for manufacturing, but the cost of shipping the goods to all of you fine people (a LOT of whom are overseas). The BackerKit added to that, for sure, but a successful pledge manager is generally expected to add about 10% on top of the Kickstarter total. We did pretty close to that (slightly over). Nowhere near 100% (I wish)!
The bottom line is, we're not going to make much, if any, profit from this project until the game is selling in retail. And most of THAT is going to be put back into development and manufacture of future expansions.
--Wayne

So if they did slightly over 10% in the pledge manager period (I'm surprised it was only another 150k'ish), that'd put them up near 1.6m total, 1.45m after KS/Amazon's cut, minus HG and ND's cut.

Using UPS bulk rate boxes, even within the US is going to get pricey, and international shipping isn't pretty (though they dinged my group for $100 just to Canada, so it seems quite likely we paid our own way there).

Add in manufacturing costs, paying for for any artwork/renders/whatever that fell outside their existing contracts, plus materials, labour and whatnot, I'm sure it's all added up.

Not to mention the potentially 5k+ players who snagged various piles of models at a steep discount over retail. Some will buy more, some might never buy another, others might get friends into the game and drive further sales. That's a lot harder to even make a guess as to how it might wash out.

Doesn't change my view of things, but it is interesting to have a bit of a glimpse behind the scenes.

 Forar wrote:

Palladium wrote:@ Jason Harris:
“This endeavor already made them $1.44 Million Dollars; plus up to another 100% in backerkit bonuses. So with potentially anywhere from $2 Million to $3 Million already in their pockets - they don't necessarily have to rush to give a product that's already been paid for.”

I just caught this last night, and feel the need to respond and clear something up.
We are NOT sitting on a giant pile of money. After Amazon/Kickstarter fees (8-10%) and the usual 1-2% of backers whose payments didn't go through, the total wasn't much more than $1.3 mil. Then HG and ND get their cuts, and what's left over has to pay not only for manufacturing, but the cost of shipping the goods to all of you fine people (a LOT of whom are overseas). The BackerKit added to that, for sure, but a successful pledge manager is generally expected to add about 10% on top of the Kickstarter total. We did pretty close to that (slightly over). Nowhere near 100% (I wish)!
The bottom line is, we're not going to make much, if any, profit from this project until the game is selling in retail. And most of THAT is going to be put back into development and manufacture of future expansions.
--Wayne

Wonder what caused that knee jerk reaction?

Edit: never mind. Just woke up, time for coffee.

Sorry, I forgot to include what he was responding to initially, in case that was confusing.

People have been playing fast and loose with what they hope/think/assume Palladium made off the project. It's interesting to hear that, at least for many creators, a pledge manager is generally around 10%. Fascinating that the post-campaign funding might just wash out the chunk lost to Amazon and Kickstarter themselves.

 Forar wrote:
Sorry, I forgot to include what he was responding to initially, in case that was confusing.

People have been playing fast and loose with what they hope/think/assume Palladium made off the project. It's interesting to hear that, at least for many creators, a pledge manager is generally around 10%. Fascinating that the post-campaign funding might just wash out the chunk lost to Amazon and Kickstarter themselves.

yeah, around 10% is the usual pledge manager purchase amount.. then subtract the fee from Backerkit (Currently 1% of KS total), and the fee from Swipe (~3% of the charge)...

Do you believe them when they say only 10% extra via pledge managers?

I'm not sure I do, and not just because they are who they are.

 Alpharius wrote:
Do you believe them when they say only 10% extra via pledge managers?

I'm not sure I do, and not just because they are who they are.

Yes, I can believe they only gained an addition of about $150k.

While you & I understand about pledging later, most kickstarter backers, especially those that only look at the site because of a big name brand product, do not and will pledge all they will ever pledge then and there.