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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

So, for those of you who weren't around for 4th edition imperial guard, you used to be able to make a "jedi" psyker. Namely, you took a primaris psyker and gave him the Honorifica Imperialis. This made it so that the model had a statline akin to a senior officer or a lord commissar in our current codex. It also gave him access to wargear, so you could give him carapace armor, refractor fields, etc. The basic idea is that you could have a close combat fighter in your CCS that had a force weapon, so you could actually do stuff against monstrous creatures.

In all these years since our current codex has been out, I haven't even really given it even a first thought, much less a second. Last night though, I was looking at some old guard stuff, and it got me wondering, can we do that now?

I mean, in the few times I've used a primaris, it's been for his lightning fingers, and when I've thought about this in any other context, it's been with the idea of using TK powers (his other offensive wizard spells), or, as some have been using him, to cast buffs on to other squads. I'm wondering, though, can you make him good in his own right?

I mean, he already (sans 3W) has the statline of a senior officer, and, like a senior officer, comes with a refractor field for free, and, of course, the force weapon, which means that it's at least sort of possible.

Obviously, this kind of a character would be based around biomancy. +S, T, and EW would be great for close combat, while so, equally obviously, would be +A, I and fleet. FNP wouldn't be bad either, of course, nor would being able to reduce your opponent's toughness. Really, the only ones amiss are haemmorhage and the primaris of smite, but if you get any of the 5 good ones for close combat, then having smite as a backup shooting attack wouldn't be bad either.

I suppose the only real question on this is what force weapon you would want. Having an axe is, of course, great, given that it replaces your power fist lord commissar or CCS. That said, it's plenty possible to get +S already, and there's a chance you're going to get +I, which seems kind of a shame to waste. On the other hand, you're more likely to be doing damage without the use of the other psychic abilities, so that you can actually use the ID feature of the force weapon.

Then there is the sword, which can make the best use out of the spells, I'd think, being really able to take advantage of +A, I, or S to counteract some of the weaknesses of power swords. For the mace, you need the +S less... or you could Iron Arm yourself anyways, and go nuts with S8 attacks, Ap4 or no.

Anyways, I just wanted to bring this relic of the guard past. I'm actually kind of curious to try it out now, and just wondered what other people thought.


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Lord of the Fleet






London

Last game I used a Primaris in my allied IG with my Chaos. I was lucky to get Enfeeble as one of my powers, which allowed me to put a couple of wounds on Ghazzy and his pimped-out Nobs, and the other power I can't remember, that one that allows you to fire Overwatch at full BS which ended up being worthless. He performed pretty well until he was ID'ed by a SAG. As for the Force Weapon in that circumstance I went for the Maul, although he didn't get to use it I feel that it would have given him the biggest advantage against Orks.

I do feel that he's a good HQ choice, it's just that he's often overshadowed by the CCS with 4x Plasma choice.
   
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Allied DA Librarian probably does all of this better and he is 5 pts less to start with.

 
   
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So:

Psyker that has to roll on a random table to maybe get a power that makes him better than STR 3, has only T3/5+ for defense, contributes nothing outside of close combat (which is even less than the other psyker options), and barely contributes anything IN close combat.

vs.

Melta/plasma CCS that always has 4x melta/plasma guns, can take a Chimera for defense, gets to sit back and shoot from a safe distance, and contributes powerful orders even when it isn't shooting.

Yeah, I think I know which one is the obvious choice here.

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Regular Dakkanaut




One knock on the the CCS is that its a easy First Blood/Slay the Warlord. I've phased them out of my lists precisely for this reason. They potent but extremely fragile. Especially with Ignoring Cover Misslesides hitting the table soon.

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Longtime Dakkanaut






Glocknall wrote:
One knock on the the CCS is that its a easy First Blood/Slay the Warlord. I've phased them out of my lists precisely for this reason. They potent but extremely fragile. Especially with Ignoring Cover Misslesides hitting the table soon.


First blood...no. You'll give up a Chimera or other vehicle equally, so that's not necessarily valid...

Slay the Warlord? Maybe...but it's 5+ models, one of which has 3 wounds and a 5++, and usually hangs out in a Chimera. I don't feel that it's necessarily an "easy" target. Any easier than a Primaris whose job is to engage in H2H anyway...

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While I agree that in general a CCS is going to be more useful, a offensive/support unit is being compared to a pure support one. Also for meltas and a chimera, the CCS is more than double the points cost. If you're trying to keep a lean army without having to worry about blammings, the Primaris Psyker is pretty good.
   
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The Chimera Is precisely why the CCS is vulnerable. 4x Plasma means your averaging one Gets Hot! roll every two turns. (For me it is 1-2 every shooting phase). Secondly when the chimera is blown up you can expect 3-4 wounds on the squad.

3 wounds on a T3 model 5++ model counts for very little. People who know how to play against guard know to go after the weak points. CCS is a weak unit from a durability standpoint.

A mortar/camo cloak configuration is probably the most survivable one, but least impactful on the game.

A Primaris Psyker buried in a Blob is much harder to kill due to nearly unlimited LoS rolls. Even in CC your Sgts can deflect any challenges.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/20 01:46:15


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 acekevin8412 wrote:
While I agree that in general a CCS is going to be more useful, a offensive/support unit is being compared to a pure support one.


Except that the OP's strategy is to make the psyker into a (very weak) assault unit and try to go kill stuff, at the expense of any support powers it might possibly have.

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 Peregrine wrote:
 acekevin8412 wrote:
While I agree that in general a CCS is going to be more useful, a offensive/support unit is being compared to a pure support one.


Except that the OP's strategy is to make the psyker into a (very weak) assault unit and try to go kill stuff, at the expense of any support powers it might possibly have.


Completely forgot that part. In that case, I have to agree, don't get the psyker into CC. with a 5+/- and S3/T3 you'll wind up dead.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

The problem with comparing the primaris to a 4x meltagun CCS in a chimera is that the former is 70 points and the latter is 145. Twice as expensive. Not only might this make a big difference depending on your list, but really you have to compare the CCS to the primaris psykers and 4 sponson multimeltas on russes, or the primaris and marbo, etc.

You do need to roll for powers, but you have to many good ones for the purpose of this. Having something that has a 4-shot Ap2 BS4 shooting weapon and the ability to cause instant death with a power weapon, or to possibly throw down 7 power weapon attacks on the charge, or to have an Ap4 weapon at S8, etc. etc.

You do loose orders, which means it would be a second HQ for a foot list, but in mech lists, you're not making much use of orders anyways.

And a librarian certainly could do this as well. It's not straight cheaper, though, because you have to pay for a troops choice as well. A troops choice which is unlikely to be all that helpful to a guard army.


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 Ailaros wrote:
The problem with comparing the primaris to a 4x meltagun CCS in a chimera is that the former is 70 points and the latter is 145. Twice as expensive. Not only might this make a big difference depending on your list, but really you have to compare the CCS to the primaris psykers and 4 sponson multimeltas on russes, or the primaris and marbo, etc.


Except then you have to also count the firepower/AV saturation of the Chimera/Vendetta, not just the melta guns inside. And even a foot melta CCS, at 90 points to 70, is going to be more useful than a melee psyker.

Oh, and even if you do call it 70 to 145 the Chimera CCS is still way more than twice as effective as the minimal-contribution melee psyker.

You do need to roll for powers, but you have to many good ones for the purpose of this. Having something that has a 4-shot Ap2 BS4 shooting weapon and the ability to cause instant death with a power weapon, or to possibly throw down 7 power weapon attacks on the charge, or to have an Ap4 weapon at S8, etc. etc.


The point you're missing is that none of these things are really any good. A melee psyker might be good compared to IG "assault" units, but it's not even close to good compared to real assault units. So why throw away points on doing something IG aren't meant to do when you can spend those points on being better at the things you're good at already?

but in mech lists, you're not making much use of orders anyways.


And in mech lists you certainly aren't making use of a single assault model since you have no infantry blobs or assault vehicles. On the other hand a mech list does make good use of a 4x melta/plasma CCS even without orders.

And a librarian certainly could do this as well. It's not straight cheaper, though, because you have to pay for a troops choice as well. A troops choice which is unlikely to be all that helpful to a guard army.


Not at all true. Take a rune priest (way better in combat, better powers, and actually has useful psychic defense) and a small drop pod melta squad. Melta GH are just as useful as melta storm troopers, except they arrive on turn 1 with much better accuracy.

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He's just a crappy HQ choice. For a guard list I would rather take a CCS with magic flag and LC and either camo or a chimera. For a large blob I would rather have a Lord Commissar and attach him to the blob.

   
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Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

A melee primaris is a bad choice just outright.

The primaris in general is not bad and can be used to good effect by buffing a large blobb. He only really shows his stuff when allied with SW or DA though so they can give ATSKNF, prescience, and a possible 4++ or 4+ deny the witch. With a biomancy primaris this blobb can become a nightmare that controls the middle board utterly.

In a small allied detachment he can also be decent to add additional S6 fire with minimal investment.
   
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Rough Rider with Boomstick





I think his best use is leading an Ogryn squad. They can support each other pretty well. They give him effective T5 and stubborn. He gives them Ld9 and possibly some useful psykic power effect. They're also heading in the same direction (toward the enemy lines).
   
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 ansacs wrote:
A melee primaris is a bad choice just outright.

Unfortunately this is right.

However, playing guard against other armies like GK, Chaos, DA, Necrons and SW has made me consider something which this thread is certainly linked to:
How can we, as guard players, make the most out of the assault phase? Shooting is great. I love it, it's why I play guard, but I feel when I play as guard I'm wasting that 3rd phase every single game, while other codices can make a huge impact in it, even if it's not their main focus.

Allies are probably the best way to make use of the assault phase, but I'd really like to find a way to make pure guard list that makes use of all 3 phases available.


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A Primaris that you have described is a fairly good counter assault choice. I threw a blob of 20 CSM, Huron, and a Sarge with a Mace. Took my Sarge out, no problem. Of course, I swept the rest...but the point is that it can cause casualties that are painful. Doesn't make you think twice about trying for the assault, but it does mean you'll have to accept more losses than you should from a standard guard squad.

You won't be able to get too ridiculous a beat stick, but you will get someone that can consistently cause some pain if he ever gets into assault. It's not super competitive, but it is fun.
   
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[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

A 70 point model took out your sergeant (what, 30 something points? 40?) and you killed him and the whole squad he was with, and you think the psyker did a good job? I can't see that.

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 motyak wrote:
A 70 point model took out your sergeant (what, 30 something points? 40?) and you killed him and the whole squad he was with, and you think the psyker did a good job? I can't see that.


Well, I suppose I should explain. I think if Huron hadn't been there, that IG squad may have actually held me up in combat.

Psyker takes the Sarge and then my CSM suddenly have no attacks that ignore armor. A vet squad with 4+ armor negates half my wounds. It's even worse if the Psyker rolls endurance meaning they get FnP. It's possible I would've been held up, and with no Sarges left to challenge the Psyker, next round it would probably clean up a fair bit of them before going down to volume of dice.

If that 70 points held me up for another turn that could provide valuable breathing room for objectives or linebreaker and the like. I'm just thinking about the possibilites. Good weapon skill, access to invulnerable and armor saves, and a free force weapon. Add in whatever bonus powers you get and that's a nice and meaty 70 points in certain circumstances.
   
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[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

Don't CSM get 3 attacks on the charge? I haven't played against my mate's chaos in a while, so I forget what their weapons are. 20 of them should really leave maybe 1 or 2 vets alive on the charge, and the vets can't strike back until the CSM are done. 60 attacks, 40 hits, 26 wounds, 13 unsaved, 5 pass FNP, so 8 die. That's roughly accurate isn't it, in terms of averages?

edited for derpy maths

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/20 12:20:45


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 motyak wrote:
Don't CSM get 3 attacks on the charge? I haven't played against my mate's chaos in a while, so I forget what their weapons are. 20 of them should really leave maybe 1 or 2 vets alive on the charge, and the vets can't strike back until the CSM are done. 60 attacks, 40 hits, 26 wounds, 13 unsaved, 5 pass FNP, so 8 die. That's roughly accurate isn't it, in terms of averages? edited for derpy maths

They'll get 2 if they don't have the extra CCW (Which I always run), and three if they do so you're correct. But I never really assume that all of the CSM will get there unharmed. They're only T4 with a 3+ save so a few are going to fall before they get there. I take 20 so that I will have at least 13 when I get into the first combat. I think the math is far more favorable outside of the vacuum described above. It gets skewed even further against if your IG opponent is running a blob (which I will admit is rare these days.)
   
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Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

Yeah, but you have to remember that each of your shots that hit and wound, from any weapon in your army, ignores the armour of a blob squad, and veterans too unless they take carapace for 30 points (and a lot of weapons ignore that too).

I just don't think the psyker can be brought back anywhere near what he used to be, it's a shame, but who knows, maybe next codex?

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I expect to see a huge points decrease in the next codex. Hell the DA librarian is cheaper than the primaris psyker, which makes no sense.


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 motyak wrote:
Yeah, but you have to remember that each of your shots that hit and wound, from any weapon in your army, ignores the armour of a blob squad, and veterans too unless they take carapace for 30 points (and a lot of weapons ignore that too).

I just don't think the psyker can be brought back anywhere near what he used to be, it's a shame, but who knows, maybe next codex?

You're right. There are many variables to consider. If the squad is meched up that is another barrier that I have to get through, and gives valuable cover from anti-infantry fire. That's why I think counter assault/deterrent is where the Primaris would be most useful. Keep him with a large squad in cover and keep them as a buffer for the rest of your army. When the assault inevitably gets there you throw out some lightening fingers and throw the big P at them. Hopefully you cause some decent casualties before you get taken down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Griddlelol wrote:
I expect to see a huge points decrease in the next codex. Hell the DA librarian is cheaper than the primaris psyker, which makes no sense.

That libby is cheap as fething chips. Most point efficient librarian in the game. If you want a real jedi you could always ally in some DA.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/20 12:38:58


 
   
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Manchester, UK

 Griddlelol wrote:
Allies are probably the best way to make use of the assault phase, but I'd really like to find a way to make pure guard list that makes use of all 3 phases available.


Well, the best assault choice for a pure Guard army would be the much-maligned rough riders. They are pretty rubbish, but if you want a unit that can pounce on targets of opportunity then they can be effective. They got a decent buff in 6th too, with a larger movement range and more attack with the removal of the "no additional ccw" rule. I have no idea how to incorporate them into an effective force, although I have been pondering about having them follow a chimera advance to counter-charge targets of opportunity, whilst also giving cover saves to rear armour shots.

As for the primaris, they seem better as a shooting unit to me. I have used them to lead ogryn squads, and have success against things like scarabs and IDing them. However, with only one warp charge they can't use biomancy and the force weapon in the same turn, which hurts.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Griddlelol wrote:How can we, as guard players, make the most out of the assault phase?

Yes, guard can certainly use the assault phase. There are also certain times when it's useful.

Counterassault, for example, or for finishing off something weak that charges you, or for finishing things off that you weakened with shooting (four powerfist attacks are doing more damage than two plasma shots for the same price), or for hurting stuff that has buffs against shooting (shield of sanguinius, cover saves, etc.), or things you can be genuinely better in CC against (anything tau, regular tac marines, other guardsmen, among many others), and I have, on very rare occasion, used it to get me somewhere else faster, what with "free" +2D6" movement.

In any case, you don't need to be the best possible CC unit in order to be worth taking. Yes, you sit back and shoot rather than charge in against flamers, or assault terminators, etc. but there is a lot that you can handle with one of the few properly-equippable guard CC options. In those cases, it's the next thing down the specrtum from heavy to special weapons - something with an even shorter range, but that can do even more damage when it gets to be used.

Of course, if you don't think that close combat should even BE a part of 40k, then I'm sure you could pointlessly nitpick with a giant quote wall, but for everyone else, guard can do CC, and, in the right circumstances, do it well. I don't see the possible I6 or S8 force weapon fighter with an assault 4 Ap2 shooting attack as being the worst way to do it either.



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 Griddlelol wrote:
How can we, as guard players, make the most out of the assault phase?


By shooting so effectively that the assault phase doesn't happen. IG's strength is in shooting, not assault, and any assault-oriented unit you bring reduces they effectiveness of your shooting. You shouldn't forget that the assault phase exists since there are rare situations where you want to charge, but you shouldn't be taking units specifically for the assault phase.

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't see the possible I6 or S8 force weapon fighter with an assault 4 Ap2 shooting attack as being the worst way to do it either.


No, not the worst, since you could try to do it with a Tau unit. But it's still a terrible unit, because of that highlighted word. You're depending on a possible bonus just to get even mediocre results, and since you're only level 1 when you get that bonus it means that you can't shoot or use your force weapon. Or, if you want to shoot or use your force weapon you're stuck with basic guardsman stats. And of course you must include a unit to put your mediocre psyker in, so now you're diverting even more points away from your list's primary goal.

The only thing this unit accomplishes is helping with your weird issues about believing that you're TFG if you don't allow your opponent's assault army to have a decent fight. If you want to throw away points to give yourself some kind of moral high ground, sure, but the rest of us don't suffer from that problem.

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You can absolutely run the unit, and I think that it would be both fun and interesting with Biomancy. But it is also not "good" or "efficient".

I would suggest a Chaos lord + 10 cultists, as counter assault. That is both "good" and "efficient". You could even model it as an IG unit.
   
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Vallejo, CA

So, I actually tried this out in a game tonight. The single date point did highlight a few interesting things.

Firstly, the primaris is an independent character, which meant 2+ look out sir, which wound up being useful. Also, he didn't come across a situation where there were challenges, but in theory being able to deny it with a sergeant if such was the case meant applying the damage directly to the squad.

In the particular case I had, I wound up with Iron Arm, which wound up being hugely useful. On the turn that it mattered, he got +3T and +2S. The squad being charged was a big henchman squad with a bunch of storm bolters. In this case, I was running it with a CCS, and the squad was down to just the psyker and the officer. Because of this, overwatch was resolved against majority toughness 6. The turn before, this hadn't been true, but he did use the LoS! to shuffle wounds.

Anyways, once close combat happened, the enemy was hitting on 4's (thanks to WS4 on both of them), and then wounding on 6's (thanks to Iron Arm), and LoS! made it so that both the officer and psyker were left with one wound. The two (the officer had a fist), then threw around 9 S6 Ap2 attacks. I seriously won combat. Had I not rolled a 1 to sweep, I would have caught them, but as it was they ran off the table anyways.

Obviously, there were several things that needed to go right for that all to happen. Had I not gotten iron arm, I would have taken more wounds before they got a chance to swing, but if I'd have just taken the primaris, I'd have assault 4 Ap2 thinned the amount of shots coming in at me. And he still would have had a S4 Ap2 weapon in close combat.

In this case, shooting would have been crappy, as there would have been some cover saves involved, and, of course, there are few things as instantly decisive as close combat.

Interestingly, when this was done, there was a MC nearby that I very seriously considered attacking. After all, the psyker has a force weapon, and with a force axe, he's got a decent chance to actually use it. The problem was that this particular MC was a riptide, and, well... insane overwatch. If it would have been (nearly) anything else, there was a chance for an IDed monstrous creature as well.

In the end, I still think this kind of thing is doable, and can do certain things better than other options. I think my main problem with him is that he's an essentially defensive weapon, and I think I might want something that can reach out and touch things a bit more.

I guess the real question is how much better he is compared to an eviscerator priest...




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 Ailaros wrote:
Obviously, there were several things that needed to go right for that all to happen.


Don't forget that you had to lose exactly four of the five models in the CCS. With even a single extra surviving model you would have been T3 and probably lost the unit without accomplishing much. And when your only chance of success is to precisely control the number of casualties you take it's probably a bad plan.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/23 06:02:13


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