Tomb King wrote:

The attempt is to mitigate what pink horrors can fire at him. Try not to absorb all their firepower at once. The goal is to boost the FnP.

SaganGree wrote:
There is another flavor using Wraithguard Star that I use to great success:

Eldrad
10 Wraithguard /spiritseer conceal spear
Tau Commander w/ IR, Vectored Thrusters and stuff (currently running him without weapons only because of points) 2 shield drones
Wraithseer w/ D-cannon (or Brightlance - still trying to get a feel for what is better overall) - for the 4+ FNP on the wraithguard

yeah... its 1k, but its crazy hard to dislodge and having a Tough Scoring unit with Eldar is HUGE

 Tomb King wrote:

Mobility is an issue. Volume of fire I would have to argue with. Unless the tau get misfortune or a way to ignore cover they could probably bring them down if they close the distance. If not they can have the tau commander shoot at them from range and dwindle them down. This build slaughters the pinkstar as 3d6 psychic checks and it can also deny the witch on a 4+. The paladin list would be the toughest as their are only 5 invul saves in the list. Even though they can re-roll them with fortune it would be the toughest match-up. Though the wraithguard can isntant death the paladins on to wound rolls of 6. They also have hit and run. The tau commander could even eat ap3 force weapons.

eldrad 3++
Wraithguard 3+ with 5+ cover base from conceal
Spiritseer 4++
Shadowsun 3+ 5++
shield drones 4++
Tau Commander 2+

Fire power:
10 S x always wounds on 2+ and 6 Cause ID shots 12" range
2 Rapid Fire S6 Ap2 24" range
2 Fusion blaster S8 ap1 shots

 jy2 wrote:

Deploying as far back as possible doesn't really help IMO. 1st turn he could just set himself up just outside my shooting range and then it would be just like normal, only he probably would have tabled me on T3 instead of T2. Deploying back would have just delayed the inevitable. I'd rather have the room to fall back, and what I needed was for him to FAIL HIS DAMN SAVES!!!

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Hmm interestingly enough I did think the seer council would do well vs the Tau, they just can't handle the speed, fortune and doom.

skyfi wrote:

probably gakked up the quote but probably good enough...


I agree the bikers won't outgun the paladins but the bikers winning the match is highly dependant upon how they hit the paladins. Without taking into account luck, I think the best shot bikers have at downing the paladins is through a combination of volume of fire and S10 hits. I feel like if the bikers split up around that rock, and sent a lone boss with his kombi skorcha to the flank of paladins (more close than the nob bikers and positioned where a multi assault from paladins vs. bikers and solo boss is nigh impossible).. making paladins decide to shoot the large group of bikers and put a dent in them before they are surely shot/charged next turn (and hit with all those skorchas as the range will be alot closer with the biker boss providing cover)...... Think of that biker boss as darth vader in his tie fighter... or thats how i do at least. Make them elect a hon solo to go toe to toe with boss while rest of group shoots bikers. Boss may just win (probably not I'd say but odds are better than a straight up fight star vs star). Paladins could just all shoot/charge and kill the solo boss but then that leaves the remainder of the group unmolested to move in, drop 4-5 S5 flamers, rack up 10 hammer of wrath attacks, then get their normal combat..

If they don't kill the biker boss hes free to skorcha their keesters, and charge in and die gloriously to the overwatch, while letting his buddies scoot on in unscathed.... the nobs also really really need more bosspoles. people really skip out on them. you need a bosspole on a non-character as well for once all yours get challenged and beat down like dogs.

With you taking such an aggressive stance with paladins in this match jy2, I felt it would of left you vulnerable to him closing gap like that, splitting biker boss off, and probably would have been his best shot at pulling the W.

I think that one of the strengths of the nob bikers that was really not taken into account is the fact that there are 3 capable entities in that one unit that can use one another to catch overwatch, force decisions etc. I don't think for them to qualify as a deathstar they have to stay in the same "unit".. I think one boss breaking out of the unit to help with situations is a very key dynamic capability, not just due to their mobility, but T6, 4+ cover etc. the increased toughness for eating overwatch as a solo model I reckon would outweigh the damage done by overwatch when it hits full unit. I think that in overwatch you killed 3 bikes right? or was it 2 bikes and a boss? regardless 3 stock bikes is 150 points (5 points more than a solo boss) or 250 for the boss and 2 stock bikes lost to overwatch... if you were needing 5's to wound with s5 shooting vs. t6 that would of probably inflicted less wounds than against majority T5 also right?

I run a 2nd biker boss with a single deffkopta for 2 wound ablative T6 majority just to catch overwatch for my nob bikers sometimes.. but the principle can be applied to the deathstar by using the t6 solo boss.

Just my 2 cents. hope my analysis wasn't over bearing or annoying.

Excited to see the rest come down the pipeline!

 ace101 wrote:
Maybe we could get some matchups from different bonus matches combined. I'm really asking for the Spartan-hammernators to get a different matchup, like the nob-bikers, Draigowing, or Bad Company. I'd be interested to see what would insue in those matchups

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:
Sorry if someone proposed this one already (missed a few pages in the middle), but what about something like this:

Screamer Council Daemons (open to name suggestions lol)

T-Herald, Level 3, Exalted Reward (grimoire), Conj Loci, Disc
T-Herald, Level 3, Greater Reward (Gr. Etherblade), Conj Loci, Disc
T-Herald, Level 3, Greater Reward (Gr. Etherblade), Conj Loci, Disc
T-Herald, Level 3, Greater Reward (Gr. Etherblade), Disc
9 Screamers

Total - 870

You lose a bit of shooting and 2 ablative wounds, but gain the mobility of jetbikes (and as a DE player I'm all about mobility), slash attacks, and some decent CC attacks should it come to that. If the Grimoire fails to go off they can beat feet 36" away and try again next turn. Plus there's some points left over to throw in something annoying like the Masque, Blue Scribes (more for fun), a skullcannon, a big swam of nurglings, an extra 14 horrors/5 screamers for the heralds to jump to if needed, drop one locus for a soulgrinder, etc.

 Redbeard wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Deploying as far back as possible doesn't really help IMO. 1st turn he could just set himself up just outside my shooting range and then it would be just like normal, only he probably would have tabled me on T3 instead of T2. Deploying back would have just delayed the inevitable. I'd rather have the room to fall back, and what I needed was for him to FAIL HIS DAMN SAVES!!!

You have six suits with move&shoot missile pods - six if you use the one to twin-link the others. If he sets up just outside of your shooting range, that puts him 40" away from you. I hardly see a better scenario for the Tau. That's eight or nine wounds additional wounds he has to save.

 jy2 wrote:
[
How is that a better scenario? The seer council can turbo-boost and move a whopping 48" to be within assault range next turn. Whether Farsight's unit is 24" away or 40" away, they're only going to get 1 chance to shoot before the council is on them.

You also have to keep in mind that, depending on the deployment, Tau may not even be able to deploy that far back.

Theorius wrote:
JY2!!!


That was a poor showing for tau, I think alot had to do with your in experience using tau and your opponents experience with the eldar. I dont see any reason why you would charge eldar...lol!

additionally I was playing around with my game table at home and the tau can set up in such a way to make it hard for them to get that first run charge or at the very least limit what can get in. ESPECIALLY, witht hat big building you put in the middle, its a good choke point for the eldar.

The two situations tau should get are like so

2 rounds of shooting + over watch then you take one assault, hit and run another shooting plus overwatch

1 round of shooting + overwatch (with limited models in combat)

ADDITIONALLY - Eldar NEED to go first or they are likely to get hurt, they also NEED certain powers to be extremely strong. Tau are underdogs not going first but they will not neccessarily lose.

Items to take away for tau vs deldar

1. NEVER CHARGE ELDAR!!!

2. With premeasure set it up to limit charges to try and get 2 turns of shooting before comat or at MINIMUM limit the amount they can get in on the charge.

3. In combat keep the puretide hit and run guy out of combat if you can....dunno how but keep his butt in the way back!!!

4. Always try and set it up where they can possibly fail charge. Correct me if I am wrong but with the hit and run distance + move + jsj you should always be able to get back 24" or more them? is their movement option 12" plus charge? they cant fleet on bikes can they?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:
[
How is that a better scenario? The seer council can turbo-boost and move a whopping 48" to be within assault range next turn. Whether Farsight's unit is 24" away or 40" away, they're only going to get 1 chance to shoot before the council is on them.

You also have to keep in mind that, depending on the deployment, Tau may not even be able to deploy that far back.

If they are assaulting NEXT turn then that is two turns of shooting? yes no?


Oh and drone controller on a suit works for all the drones. I take it in my star, 8 pts for another bs on all those carbines is nice! also, can the deldar be pinned?

 jy2 wrote:
[
How is that a better scenario? The seer council can turbo-boost and move a whopping 48" to be within assault range next turn. Whether Farsight's unit is 24" away or 40" away, they're only going to get 1 chance to shoot before the council is on them.

You also have to keep in mind that, depending on the deployment, Tau may not even be able to deploy that far back.

 jy2 wrote:
Let me clarify it for you how it works.

Tau will most likely only get 1 turn of shooting in before they get assaulted.

If Eldar goes first, they turbo-boost to as close as Tau as they can get (say, 1" away).

This is basically the only chance for Tau to shoot.

On Tau's turn, say they move back 6". They are now 7" away and they shoot. Then in the Assault phase, they will jump back an average of 10.5" with Shadowsun in the unit. They are now 17.5" away.

Then on eldar's next turn, they move up 12" and need only assault 6" (with re-roll's due to fleet). This is assuming they don't shoot. This also assuming Tau has that much space to fall back (something they probably wouldn't be able to do if this was Dawn of War deployment or if they are already deploying in the back).


If Tau went first, then all eldar really needs to do is to deploy either outside of their shooting range (42"+) or behind LOS-blocking terrain. Then next turn, turbo-boost to as close as Tau as possible. Tau will most likely still only have 1 turn of shooting them before they are in assault.

2 turns of shooting would require some luck on the part of Tau. It would basically require a failed charge by the seer council.

SaganGree wrote:
There is another flavor using Wraithguard Star that I use to great success:

Eldrad
10 Wraithguard /spiritseer conceal spear
Tau Commander w/ IR, Vectored Thrusters and stuff (currently running him without weapons only because of points) 2 shield drones
Wraithseer w/ D-cannon (or Brightlance - still trying to get a feel for what is better overall) - for the 4+ FNP on the wraithguard

yeah... its 1k, but its crazy hard to dislodge and having a Tough Scoring unit with Eldar is HUGE

Siphen wrote:
Ah, I didn't realize that all the Jetbikes also had Fleet. However, don't forget that the Tau will probably get a couple extra inches (even 2" could matter) from killing the closest models with their shooting. Then they'll probably kill 1 more with overwatch.

I'd say that, on average, the Eldar will be trying to make an 8" charge. Pretty likely with Fleet, but they could fail. With a single failed charge, it's completely over. Tau can shoot again AND end up even further away.

Still worth trying to get away, I'd say. The Tau want to shoot as much as possible (and avoiding the Destructors is also nice). Not to mention that with a single great jump move (say the Tau jump back 15"), the Eldar won't be able to catch them.

 jy2 wrote:

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:
Sorry if someone proposed this one already (missed a few pages in the middle), but what about something like this:

Screamer Council Daemons (open to name suggestions lol)

T-Herald, Level 3, Exalted Reward (Grimoire), Conj Loci, Disc
T-Herald, Level 3, Greater Reward (Gr. Etherblade), Conj Loci, Disc
T-Herald, Level 3, Greater Reward (Gr. Etherblade), Conj Loci, Disc
T-Herald, Level 3, Greater Reward (Gr. Etherblade), Disc
9 Screamers

Total - 870

You lose a bit of shooting and 2 ablative wounds, but gain the mobility of jetbikes (and as a DE player I'm all about mobility), slash attacks, and some decent CC attacks should it come to that. If the Grimoire fails to go off they can beat feet 36" away and try again next turn. Plus there's some points left over to throw in something annoying like the Masque, Blue Scribes (more for fun), a skullcannon, a big swam of nurglings, an extra 14 horrors/5 screamers for the heralds to jump to if needed, drop one locus for a soulgrinder, etc.

Interesting deathstar.

I'm not so sure about the mix. Is it a shooty deathstar or an assault deathstar? It's got mobility but isn't so great in combat. It's got some shooting, but you're going to move within 24" of the opponent to shoot them, thus restricting its mobility and putting the unit at risk to enemy shooting. Honestly, I don't see this deathstar as being as good as the Pinkstar. The Pinkstar has better raw Firepower and a much, much better complement in the LoC than any additional unit the screamer-star can bring in.

Quark wrote:
SMS: 2/3 chance to wound (S5 vs T4), 1/3 chance to not save (3+ Armor Save), , 1/3 chance on reroll (Fortune). 2/27 chance after you get the hit.

So getting even 2 wounds from a bunch of SMS seems unlikely, once you count ballistic skill. SMS is beastly because it ignores cover by default, but to go against an Invisible Seer Council you want something that ignores cover and is at least AP3 to drop the Armor Save as well.

If they're not Invisible, then the Ignores Cover on SMS is pointless anyway.

Theorius wrote:

Oh i should have clarified, I agree on the 1 turn initially. I am now arguing the hit and run move to make it harder for them to get the tau deathstar on subsequent turns. It all depends on how easy/hard it is to get the hit and run suit to survive. Maybe the iradium suit needs to be on the hit and run guy?

Final turbo boost clarification - you are "turbo boosting" in a straight line right? and based on that premise you think you can always get within 1"?

also my previous question, can the jetbikes be pinned by the carbines?

Siphen wrote:
Ah, I didn't realize that all the Jetbikes also had Fleet. However, don't forget that the Tau will probably get a couple extra inches (even 2" could matter) from killing the closest models with their shooting. Then they'll probably kill 1 more with overwatch.

I'd say that, on average, the Eldar will be trying to make an 8" charge. Pretty likely with Fleet, but they could fail. With a single failed charge, it's completely over. Tau can shoot again AND end up even further away.

Still worth trying to get away, I'd say. The Tau want to shoot as much as possible (and avoiding the Destructors is also nice). Not to mention that with a single great jump move (say the Tau jump back 15"), the Eldar won't be able to catch them.

 Tomb King wrote:

SaganGree wrote:
There is another flavor using Wraithguard Star that I use to great success:

Eldrad
10 Wraithguard /spiritseer conceal spear
Tau Commander w/ IR, Vectored Thrusters and stuff (currently running him without weapons only because of points) 2 shield drones
Wraithseer w/ D-cannon (or Brightlance - still trying to get a feel for what is better overall) - for the 4+ FNP on the wraithguard

yeah... its 1k, but its crazy hard to dislodge and having a Tough Scoring unit with Eldar is HUGE

Shadowsun comes with the 2 shield drones and gives the squad the 2+ cover save without any psychic powers. The psychic powers just give the ability to re-roll it.

 jy2 wrote:

Theorius wrote:

Oh i should have clarified, I agree on the 1 turn initially. I am now arguing the hit and run move to make it harder for them to get the tau deathstar on subsequent turns. It all depends on how easy/hard it is to get the hit and run suit to survive. Maybe the iradium suit needs to be on the hit and run guy?

Final turbo boost clarification - you are "turbo boosting" in a straight line right? and based on that premise you think you can always get within 1"?

also my previous question, can the jetbikes be pinned by the carbines?

The thing is, eldar can also Hit-&-Run as well to gain extra movement thanks to the Baron. That's what happened on T1 as we both H&R out of combat. And if the seer council hits them in combat, say goodbye to your H&R guy. Every attack is a Precision Strike because everyone in the unit is a character and the bodyguards cannot do Look-Out-Sirs. I highly doubt strategic models will survive in combat, especially if eldar cast Prescience for re-roll's to hit.

I wouldn't put H&R on the Iridium guy because he is the one I would use to tank incoming shots after the drones are dead. 2+ is better used for tanking small-arms fire and at least his T5 will allow him to survive against lascannons/missiles/meltas a little longer. I would also use him to tank incoming regular hits as well as AP3 power weapon attacks. Basically, that guy is going to die. His job is just to minimize the damage to the rest of the unit by absorbing as much damage as possible so that the Tau can still shoot at a high capacity.

Turbo-boost does not need to be in a straight line. As long as the opponent does not deploy more than 48" away from the jetbikes, you can almost always get within 1" of the target.

As for whether they can be pinned, I'm not sure. It would depend on whether the Baron is Fearless or not (probably not). In any case, we forgot to do pinning tests for deldar because I forgot that the guns were pinning. However, I wouldn't count on it too much. Eldar are testing on LD10 with re-rolls thanks to Embolden.

Theorius wrote:

AWWW!! double hit and run...duh, how does that work? who runs first? the defender? EDIT - looked it up it is a roll off on who has to hit and run first. Makes it chancy for the eldar cause if they hit and run then the tau can just go the other way if they get to go second!!! The eldar almost wants to in most cases NOT hit and run and hope the tau dont get very far.

and damn those precision hits! its looking grim now....

I disagree on turbo boost, unless there was a faq? it says pick two points and draw a line, that means straight trying to say you can make a curved line invalidates the entire reason why they would word it as "pick two points" they would have just said you may turboboost 24" meaning you can go whereever you want.

Quark wrote:
Lessee ...

pg38 - Hit and Run - Roll off. If the last HnR unit is no longer in combat, it Consolidates instead.

pg45 - Turbo Boost - Says nothing about "lines". Just up to 12/24/36". In an earlier section, though "Jetbikes can always move over all other models and all terrain freely."

Theorius wrote:

Quark wrote:
Lessee ...

pg38 - Hit and Run - Roll off. If the last HnR unit is no longer in combat, it Consolidates instead.

pg45 - Turbo Boost - Says nothing about "lines". Just up to 12/24/36". In an earlier section, though "Jetbikes can always move over all other models and all terrain freely."

turbo boost - Good grief i was looking at my 5th ed book....sigh...ignore me.

hit and run - damn that clarification on last unit is good for the damn eldar.....if they go first just hit and run like 1" so your still on top and the tau can only consolidate......

if tau goes first its basically a chase on who can roll further for the run.....

damn, it is looking grim for the tau in this scenario!

EDIT!!!

NEW ISSUE!! just got home and looked up the baron in the codex and he isnt on a jet bike and is treated as a jump infantry. How does he keep up with turbo boosting eldar? can he even use his jump move as jump says he must move like the other units and since jetbikes dont jump....how does he jump? I looked through the dark eldar faq, and am now on the rulebook faq on how he works...in a unit of jetbikes.

 Tomb King wrote:
Fixed the list:

Drop the firewarriors as they are not needed.

Tau/Dar WraithBomb

ShadowSun 175pts 2x shield drones

Tau Commander 217pts w/ vectored Retro-thrusters; plasma rifle x2; Onager Gauntlet, Repulsor Impact Field, Puretide Engram Neurochip, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite, XV8-02 Crisis 'Iridium' Battlesuit; 1 shield drone)

6 fire warriors 54pts

Eldrad 210pts

10 Wraithguard with spirit seer Conceal 396pts

Yes the conceal gives a 5+ cover. The then stacks with shrouding and stealth. Making the 2+ cover save. Then fortune from eldrad gives them the re-roll to save. The list is seriously resilient. Still haven't decided if it should run plasma or missle for the commander. They ignore cover for all shooting. Have hit and run. The neurochip can help with counter attack, furious charge, monster hunter, stubborn, or tank hunter. Ide like to see this list vs Paladin star. I seriously think it eats it for lunch. The toughest match-up for this list would probably be the tau.

Skip wrote:
First I want to thank you jy2 for this nice thread

And I want to know your opinion on adding a SM gate-libby to the Tau deathstar. Would make it even more deadly and mobile. Teleporting up to 24" without scattering (Farsight), make it a Lvl 2 psyker and you could also cast Null Zone...

Also 2 10 man tacticals in rhinos would add some nice scoring ability to the Tau army

GTKA666 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Fixed the list:

Drop the firewarriors as they are not needed.

Tau/Dar WraithBomb

ShadowSun 175pts 2x shield drones

Tau Commander 217pts w/ vectored Retro-thrusters; plasma rifle x2; Onager Gauntlet, Repulsor Impact Field, Puretide Engram Neurochip, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite, XV8-02 Crisis 'Iridium' Battlesuit; 1 shield drone)

6 fire warriors 54pts

Eldrad 210pts

10 Wraithguard with spirit seer Conceal 396pts

Yes the conceal gives a 5+ cover. The then stacks with shrouding and stealth. Making the 2+ cover save. Then fortune from eldrad gives them the re-roll to save. The list is seriously resilient. Still haven't decided if it should run plasma or missle for the commander. They ignore cover for all shooting. Have hit and run. The neurochip can help with counter attack, furious charge, monster hunter, stubborn, or tank hunter. Ide like to see this list vs Paladin star. I seriously think it eats it for lunch. The toughest match-up for this list would probably be the tau.

All the paladins have to do is get into CC with the units and then the Guard will crumble underneath the weight of the pally star. Also no need for Eldrad, just a Farseer or two.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Skip wrote:
First I want to thank you jy2 for this nice thread

And I want to know your opinion on adding a SM gate-libby to the Tau deathstar. Would make it even more deadly and mobile. Teleporting up to 24" without scattering (Farsight), make it a Lvl 2 psyker and you could also cast Null Zone...

Also 2 10 man tacticals in rhinos would add some nice scoring ability to the Tau army

Yes, an attached SM Librarian covers all the weaknesses in the Tau star, i.e. Mobility and Psychic Defence, and gives them a huge counter to re-rollstars like Pinkstar and Seer Council.

Deldar is kind of a misnomer- they're both Eldar. Only mon'keighs call them... Dark Eldar. Heck, only people outside the 40k universe call them Dark Eldar. Everyone else (themselves included) just considers them to be Eldar.