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 Void__Dragon wrote:

The real weird thing that I have no explanation for is the banning of the Librarians, but allowing the Rune Priests to continue practicing their powers. Not banning the Thousand Sons of their powers, they were sorcerers, but what a Librarian of the Ultramarines practiced was no different from a Rune Priest.

I see it as the difference between using innate abilities and using aquired power. The Thousand Sons tried to learn and use everything to do with warp craft. Thats what Nikea was - to stop people using the warp however they wanted to. The Space wolves only seemed to use what they could already do (and carefully at that). From what the wolves were doing, it seems fair to assume they weren't being taught by demons in disguise.
The wolves are also famed for things like lightning powers and using the weather to attack - changing things that already exist (like a storm) a little to produce a violent powerful storm with lightning to attack their enemies.
The Thousand Sons cut out the middleman and just went straight for finger launched lightning (changing the natural order of things)
Of course, thats just how I see it - if I'm trying to find differences.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Hey, look everyone, I am actually defending the Space Wolves.

Who are you and what have you done with the 'Real' Void__Dragon?

I wasn't comparing the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons, read my post again.

Unlike some fans, I can acknowledge my faction's faults. The way they (Mostly Magnus) handled their talents is one of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Dave wrote:
Re: The Emperor allowing their use of Runes and continued use of psychic powers, I believe this may be due to their obvious, unflinching loyalty and that these activities appear to actually lead to a "safer" usage of the warp/psychic powers.
Another possible explanation is that the Space Wolves appear to be like a "no-holds-barred", will-do-anything force (even acting as executioners, even if that's not their true role), and their use of Runes and Rune Priests may have only helped with that?

Just how I would imagine the Emperor justifying it.

Can you claim that the Space Wolves were as obviously and unflinchingly loyal as the Blood Angels? The Ultramarines?

Also, safer relative to what? The Thousand Sons? Sure. Random Salamander Librarian #6? Nah... Not based on what I have seen.

I have considered that they just straight-up hid the nature of the Rune Priests from the Emperor, as they lied to the Blood Angels, but I doubt it, because they do whatever the feth the Emperor says, and indeed it would be a difficult thing to hide from the most powerful psyker to ever exist.

I was explaining why I think the librarians were banned but the rune priests weren't - the 1K sons were just the easiest example as they have the most examples of usage of psychic powers in the books.

To attempt to clarify - The rune priests seemed to focus on using pyschic powers to amplify natural events - Librarians were changing things unaturally.
Its the difference between using a stick and creating a stick out of thin air.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

I have considered that they just straight-up hid the nature of the Rune Priests from the Emperor, as they lied to the Blood Angels, but I doubt it, because they do whatever the feth the Emperor says, and indeed it would be a difficult thing to hide from the most powerful psyker to ever exist.

If the Emperor can recognise the talents of random psychic encounter 1 million and ten (John Grammaticus) then I am sure he can deduce that the Rune Priests are the same.

PredaKhaine wrote:

To attempt to clarify - The rune priests seemed to focus on using pyschic powers to amplify natural events - Librarians were changing things unaturally.

Firing lightning out of your finger tips is natural?!

I uh, disagree I guess?

The Rune Priests in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns both make blatant usage of telepathy, and creating a storm within a sealed environment is not "natural".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
If the Emperor can recognise the talents of random psychic encounter 1 million and ten (John Grammaticus) then I am sure he can deduce that the Rune Priests are the same.

Yeah, sort of like that thing I just said.

You agree with me I guess, lol?

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Yeah, sort of like that thing I just said.

You agree with me I guess, lol?

Sorry, I miss read

Which beggars the question, how do the Space Wolves still get away with it.

Ok in, game terms - it's the difference between Nyalls living lightning and the psychic power smite.

One is a storm amplified, one is opening a hole in reality by the power of your mind. But hey, it's only an opinion - I wasn't even trying to argue.
It was just to offer a different perspective. But argue all you like

Another aspect of the Space Wolves I think some might dislike and I personally do is the double standard of it all.

For example: When Kaldor Draigo defeated Mortarion, hell, when he was even rumored to have done so before the codex came out, the internet exploded, the very notion of one guy, even though he was the mightiest of all Grey Knights, besting a Daemon Primarch was seen as the ultimate heresy in the eyes of many.

But when Ragnar Blackmane, a Bloodclaw at the time, manages to single-handedly banish Magnus the Red by poking him in the eye, it is apparently awesome.

And before anyone says "Hurdur ur just jealous and a buttmad Thousand Sons fanboy", damn right I am butthurt, it's totally lame that my favorite Primarch has been banished like three or four times, by the same dudes, to the point of being a running gag. I wouldn't approve of that being done to any Primarch. If Phosis T'kar managed to beat up Leman Russ in his charge, it would have also been stupid.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Another aspect of the Space Wolves I think some might dislike and I personally do is the double standard of it all.

For example: When Kaldor Draigo defeated Mortarion, hell, when he was even rumored to have done so before the codex came out, the internet exploded, the very notion of one guy, even though he was the mightiest of all Grey Knights, besting a Daemon Primarch was seen as the ultimate heresy in the eyes of many.

But when Ragnar Blackmane, a Bloodclaw at the time, manages to single-handedly banish Magnus the Red by poking him in the eye, it is apparently awesome.

And before anyone says "Hurdur ur just jealous and a buttmad Thousand Sons fanboy", damn right I am butthurt, it's totally lame that my favorite Primarch has been banished like three or four times, by the same dudes, to the point of being a running gag. I wouldn't approve of that being done to any Primarch. If Phosis T'kar managed to beat up Leman Russ in his charge, it would have also been stupid.

Have you ever seen the official paint job on the old Magnus the Red Epic miniature? Now thats a reason for real 1 k sons fan butthurt.

Ah, you mean when they painted Magnus the Red... Blue?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Another aspect of the Space Wolves I think some might dislike and I personally do is the double standard of it all.

For example: When Kaldor Draigo defeated Mortarion, hell, when he was even rumored to have done so before the codex came out, the internet exploded, the very notion of one guy, even though he was the mightiest of all Grey Knights, besting a Daemon Primarch was seen as the ultimate heresy in the eyes of many.

But when Ragnar Blackmane, a Bloodclaw at the time, manages to single-handedly banish Magnus the Red by poking him in the eye, it is apparently awesome.

And before anyone says "Hurdur ur just jealous and a buttmad Thousand Sons fanboy", damn right I am butthurt, it's totally lame that my favorite Primarch has been banished like three or four times, by the same dudes, to the point of being a running gag. I wouldn't approve of that being done to any Primarch. If Phosis T'kar managed to beat up Leman Russ in his charge, it would have also been stupid.

I agree with you there - I never understood why Magnus let himself get into that position. But these are also the books where Ragnars 2 companions are the only fat space marine and the only foppish space wolf. Who for some reason I always picture as looking like Errol Flynn.
In that book, IIRC - Magnus was staring through a hole in space/time with just his single big eye (only apparent weakness to the spear of Russ) poking out. Looking at what the 1ksons were doing with the aformentioned super spear. He should've/could've just turned Ragnar inside out by looking at him. Job Done.
By the end of the book, Magnus is afraid of Ragnar.
Which makes no sense.

Okay, I lol'd at Errol Flynn, congrats. I might have to try the books again just for that.

But yeah, like, is the spear immune to telekinesis or something? Magnus is the mightiest psyker this side of the God-Emperor, and he can't stop a spear?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Have you tried to read any other codex? They are all equally bad. I generally take the codexes as how they see themselves (the guys written about in the codex in question). I mean the Space Wolves codex ain't a good read by any means, but that's where the fluff comes from.

No, they are not equally bad, and not all bad in the same ways.

The 4e Dark Angels book was bad from a fluff standpoint because it was so boring it made me want to stab myself in the eye with the leg of my dining room chair, which is not why I find the Space Wolves codex bad.

And why do you fin the Space Wolves codex bad then?

Vaktathi has honestly explained it better than I would ever care to, but the fluff is just sort of jumbled, not really well put together (I am only speaking of the 5e codex, I have never read any older one tbh). The Space Wolves try to be so many thing and wind up looking schizophrenic. To this day, I have no idea what the specialty of the Space Wolves is supposed to be, since they seem to excel in so many separate areas (Close combat, assaults, sieges, reconnaissance, battles of attrition (With the Bloodclaws), trickery, ironically psychic powers etc.). Other chapters have fairly well-defined roles. The Ultramarines are very generalized, capable in all areas, but not as much as other Legions in their specialty. The Imperial Fists are fortifiers and siege masters. The Blood Angels masters of the assault (Particularly of the aerial variety), the Black Templars duelists par excellence. And so on.

This is all compounded by silly, OTT fluff, which is OTT in the generic 40k fashion (Blowing up a Chaos Void Whale from the inside), but also in fluff-violating unique ways (Lukas the Trickster apparently being Casanova at the age of 10, a Space Wolf making a pass at what he thinks to be a woman).

It all speaks to me of an attempt to make the Space Wolves super amazing in a sort of juvenile fashion, sacrificing quality for Rule of Cool. The one thing that should not be sacrificed for Rule of Cool.

Which is a shame. Honestly... One of the biggest reasons I used to dislike Space Wolves is how disappointed I was in them. I came into 40k expecting them to be my favorite chapter. I mean, manly Space Vikings with many beards and fur pelts over power armour? Awesome. But when I read the codex, I was sorely disappointed.

I expected Vinland Saga, and got SpongeBob cosplaying as Leif Ericson on Leif Ericson Day.

Void__Dragon wrote:Can you claim that the Space Wolves were as obviously and unflinchingly loyal as the Blood Angels? The Ultramarines?

Arguably, yeah. Leman Russ really was his lapdog. I don't deny the loyalty of Sangy or Guilliman (or even moreso Dorn or Vulkan, I'd imagine), but Russ really was under his thumb, possibly more so than the others.

Also, safer relative to what? The Thousand Sons? Sure. Random Salamander Librarian #6? Nah... Not based on what I have seen.

Potentially, I think so yes, mainly due to the power of belief in 40K.

I have considered that they just straight-up hid the nature of the Rune Priests from the Emperor, as they lied to the Blood Angels, but I doubt it, because they do whatever the feth the Emperor says, and indeed it would be a difficult thing to hide from the most powerful psyker to ever exist.

Agreed. The Custodes didn't appear to mind at least. As I said, the above is just how I'd imagine the Emperor trying to justify it.

Void__Dragon wrote:Another aspect of the Space Wolves I think some might dislike and I personally do is the double standard of it all.

For example: When Kaldor Draigo defeated Mortarion, hell, when he was even rumored to have done so before the codex came out, the internet exploded, the very notion of one guy, even though he was the mightiest of all Grey Knights, besting a Daemon Primarch was seen as the ultimate heresy in the eyes of many.

But when Ragnar Blackmane, a Bloodclaw at the time, manages to single-handedly banish Magnus the Red by poking him in the eye, it is apparently awesome.

And before anyone says "Hurdur ur just jealous and a buttmad Thousand Sons fanboy", damn right I am butthurt, it's totally lame that my favorite Primarch has been banished like three or four times, by the same dudes, to the point of being a running gag. I wouldn't approve of that being done to any Primarch. If Phosis T'kar managed to beat up Leman Russ in his charge, it would have also been stupid.

I don't think much of what is contained in the Will King Space Wolf books can be considered awesome, IMHO.

Maybe it's being selective, or maybe it's being reasonable, but I try to ignore the fluff presented in the Space Wolf omnibi. It's definitely a double standard, I completely agree, but personally I try to disregard thems novels: Predakaine summarised it pretty well.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Vaktathi has honestly explained it better than I would ever care to, but the fluff is just sort of jumbled, not really well put together (I am only speaking of the 5e codex, I have never read any older one tbh). The Space Wolves try to be so many thing and wind up looking schizophrenic. To this day, I have no idea what the specialty of the Space Wolves is supposed to be, since they seem to excel in so many separate areas (Close combat, assaults, sieges, reconnaissance, battles of attrition (With the Bloodclaws), trickery, ironically psychic powers etc.). Other chapters have fairly well-defined roles. The Ultramarines are very generalized, capable in all areas, but not as much as other Legions in their specialty. The Imperial Fists are fortifiers and siege masters. The Blood Angels masters of the assault (Particularly of the aerial variety), the Black Templars duelists par excellence. And so on.

This is all compounded by silly, OTT fluff, which is OTT in the generic 40k fashion (Blowing up a Chaos Void Whale from the inside), but also in fluff-violating unique ways (Lukas the Trickster apparently being Casanova at the age of 10, a Space Wolf making a pass at what he thinks to be a woman).

It all speaks to me of an attempt to make the Space Wolves super amazing in a sort of juvenile fashion, sacrificing quality for Rule of Cool. The one thing that should not be sacrificed for Rule of Cool.

Which is a shame. Honestly... One of the biggest reasons I used to dislike Space Wolves is how disappointed I was in them. I came into 40k expecting them to be my favorite chapter. I mean, manly Space Vikings with many beards and fur pelts over power armour? Awesome. But when I read the codex, I was sorely disappointed.

I expected Vinland Saga, and got SpongeBob cosplaying as Leif Ericson on Leif Ericson Day.

This must be the most unintentionally hilarious post ever. Hahahaha. I basically can't stop laughing reading this. This is like watching Sledge Hammer, the puns are so so blindly oblivious it's actually hilarious just to read.

Lukas the Trickster I usually follow that up with a pun about the cops showing up, and maybe arrest Phil Kelly, just kidding.

I also see insanity, expecting a good written codex is like expecting a sympathetic Manchester United. Codexes are known for their hyperbole, so you can't expect a good read.

 Just Dave wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Can you claim that the Space Wolves were as obviously and unflinchingly loyal as the Blood Angels? The Ultramarines?

Arguably, yeah. Leman Russ really was his lapdog. I don't deny the loyalty of Sangy or Guilliman (or even moreso Dorn or Vulkan, I'd imagine), but Russ really was under his thumb, possibly more so than the others.

I don't think much of what is contained in the Will King Space Wolf books can be considered awesome, IMHO.

I see Russ as one of the most loyal.

To use a wolf analogy - when two wolves don't like each other they fight. The winner is now the alpha male of the pack. The Emp kicked Russ round the room when they met - so Russ becomes subservient to the alpha male.

I love the Space Wolf omnibus's. They are awesome
They just aren't about space wolves as they are now - those are the epitome of 'Vikings in spaaaaace'

It's the story of Ragnar (a special snowflake) who skips all the command structure of the wolves (in his special snowflake way) to become the youngest wolflord (super special snowflake). Along the way he defeats chaos sorcerers as a blood claw (just a little snowflakey), many rubric marines, tyranids, the dark angels, a fallen (and then the special snowflake for some strange reason ISN'T slapped down and annihilated by the DA for knowing too much, they let him off because of 'mutual respect' *read mega special snowflake*), and many random mutants. He gets exiled to the Wolfblade 'snowflake patrol' but then returns triumphantly, ending with him taking on the most powerful 'living' sorcerer in the whole of the 40k universe with a nothing more than a spear.

Whats not to like?

That was the style of the time - it's no dafter than the codex story in the back of the 2nd ed wolf 'dex where Ragnar climbs up the front of a carnifex, sticks a grenade in its mouth and does some sort of back flip off the 'fex while its head explodes.

The fact that it's terrible?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The fact that it's terrible?

Besides that...

PredaKhaine wrote:
I see Russ as one of the most loyal.

To use a wolf analogy - when two wolves don't like each other they fight. The winner is now the alpha male of the pack. The Emp kicked Russ round the room when they met - so Russ becomes subservient to the alpha male.

I love the Space Wolf omnibus's. They are awesome
They just aren't about space wolves as they are now - those are the epitome of 'Vikings in spaaaaace'

It's the story of Ragnar (a special snowflake) who skips all the command structure of the wolves (in his special snowflake way) to become the youngest wolflord (super special snowflake). Along the way he defeats chaos sorcerers as a blood claw (just a little snowflakey), many rubric marines, tyranids, the dark angels, a fallen (and then the special snowflake for some strange reason ISN'T slapped down and annihilated by the DA for knowing too much, they let him off because of 'mutual respect' *read mega special snowflake*), and many random mutants. He gets exiled to the Wolfblade 'snowflake patrol' but then returns triumphantly, ending with him taking on the most powerful 'living' sorcerer in the whole of the 40k universe with a nothing more than a spear.

Whats not to like?

That was the style of the time - it's no dafter than the codex story in the back of the 2nd ed wolf 'dex where Ragnar climbs up the front of a carnifex, sticks a grenade in its mouth and does some sort of back flip off the 'fex while its head explodes.

Hahahaha. Yeah ragnar Blackmane is supposed to be awesome made flesh, instead he has transformed a living god into a bullseye. I mean Kaldor only beat the crap out of a Primarch once, while Ragnar has one as his bitch, but I like the rationalization that he threw a spear into his eye.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
I see Russ as one of the most loyal.

To use a wolf analogy - when two wolves don't like each other they fight. The winner is now the alpha male of the pack. The Emp kicked Russ round the room when they met - so Russ becomes subservient to the alpha male.

I love the Space Wolf omnibus's. They are awesome
They just aren't about space wolves as they are now - those are the epitome of 'Vikings in spaaaaace'

It's the story of Ragnar (a special snowflake) who skips all the command structure of the wolves (in his special snowflake way) to become the youngest wolflord (super special snowflake). Along the way he defeats chaos sorcerers as a blood claw (just a little snowflakey), many rubric marines, tyranids, the dark angels, a fallen (and then the special snowflake for some strange reason ISN'T slapped down and annihilated by the DA for knowing too much, they let him off because of 'mutual respect' *read mega special snowflake*), and many random mutants. He gets exiled to the Wolfblade 'snowflake patrol' but then returns triumphantly, ending with him taking on the most powerful 'living' sorcerer in the whole of the 40k universe with a nothing more than a spear.

Whats not to like?

That was the style of the time - it's no dafter than the codex story in the back of the 2nd ed wolf 'dex where Ragnar climbs up the front of a carnifex, sticks a grenade in its mouth and does some sort of back flip off the 'fex while its head explodes.

Hahahaha. Yeah ragnar Blackmane is supposed to be awesome made flesh, instead he has transformed a living god into a bullseye. I mean Kaldor only beat the crap out of a Primarch once, while Ragnar has one as his bitch, but I like the rationalization that he threw a spear into his eye.

This is only because Kaldor has been seen in one publication, that I am aware of at least. If you start getting books about Draigo I am sure they would just be as over the top, if not more so.

More so? Alone and unaided Kaldor Draigo takes on the retinue of superpowered warriors and kills them, then he completely dominates a living god in close combat, and gets to torture him. And at his spare time he is a High Lord of Terra when he ain't off to piss in the Garden of Eden, I meant Nurgle and beat up a Lord of Change. At least Ragnar did it from afar with a the spear of Odin, I meant Russ.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
More so? Alone and unaided Kaldor Draigo takes on the retinue of superpowered warriors and kills them, then he completely dominates a living god in close combat, and gets to torture him. And at his spare time he is a High Lord of Terra when he ain't off to piss in the Garden of Eden, I meant Nurgle and beat up a Lord of Change. At least Ragnar did it from afar with a the spear of Odin, I meant Russ.

Exactly, this is what we already know. His unwritten exploits could be even more extreme, maybe sticking his force sword up the ass of Khorne himself who screams in pain so loud that it shatters Slaanesh collection of crystal wine flutes.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Exactly, this is what we already know. His unwritten exploits could be even more extreme, maybe sticking his force sword up the ass of Khorne himself who screams in pain so loud that it shatters Slaanesh collection of crystal wine flutes.

Hahahahha. That was so funny a post. Now I can see Khorne and Draigo flynning. Then Draigo hits Khorne square in the ass with his force sword roaring: "Have at ye foul red-assed creature!" While Khorne is screaming loudly like a small girl. Next we see Khorne sitting on his throne of skulls with 1000 silk-pillows between his bum and the skull-throne as Draigo's force sword gave him a bad case of hemorrhoids (he uses it daily against Nurglite creatures).

When the Space Wolves were introduced in the 2nd edition codex they were the cool space vikings and not a million times over the top like they and in all fairness some other factions are portrayed now. I picked up one of King's SW books because I liked the chapter and put it down immediately because it was just so poorly written I couldnt stand it.

The big problem for a lot of us is that we have been saddled with crap that didnt exist when we first learned about the faction. I just pretend a lot of that crap doesnt exist and since there is no official canon in 40k who can gainsay me?

I still cannot believe that they actually invented SM riding wolves, that was a real shark jumping event for 40k.

Have you read the fluff about Canis Wolfborn? It's really awful and he can even speak wolfish. I mean he can bark and understand them. Voof, voof, pant, pant. He was not only reared by one he spent his first years with a pack. I wanted to rip out the bloody page. It was that bad.

JWhex wrote:
When the Space Wolves were introduced in the 2nd edition codex they were the cool space vikings and not a million times over the top like they and in all fairness some other factions are portrayed now. I picked up one of King's SW books because I liked the chapter and put it down immediately because it was just so poorly written I couldnt stand it.

They were still over the top in 2nd

Off the top of my head -

They were all ws5. Including Blood Claws.
The characters were all ws8 bs8.
Want to go first? = Kryl Grimblood had a strategy rating of 6.
Ragnar happy slapping tyranids from fluff in the back of the book.
Ranulf the Wolguard holding off an entire Ork attack on his own. At the end, after the orks had finally killed him they left him in an impromtu shrine because he was so hard.
Ulric the Slayer getting a salute from the lord of the world eaters because he killed 3 berzerkers at once.
Nyall leaping from oar to oar while fighting during a sea battle (before he was even a space wolf)

The wolves have always been over the top - it's only when the heresy came along that GW even tried to tone them down IMO.

I want to know what they'll do next - we've had Wolves riding wolves so perhaps we'll get servitor wolves with quintuple linked lascannons or maybe if we're really lucky we'll get the wolf fighter or the wolf bomber which, given the way we're going will be ACTUAL wolves with wings stuck on and flying goggles.

PredaKhaine wrote:

JWhex wrote:
When the Space Wolves were introduced in the 2nd edition codex they were the cool space vikings and not a million times over the top like they and in all fairness some other factions are portrayed now. I picked up one of King's SW books because I liked the chapter and put it down immediately because it was just so poorly written I couldnt stand it.

They were still over the top in 2nd

Off the top of my head -

They were all ws5. Including Blood Claws.
The characters were all ws8 bs8.
Want to go first? = Kryl Grimblood had a strategy rating of 6.
Ragnar happy slapping tyranids from fluff in the back of the book.
Ranulf the Wolguard holding off an entire Ork attack on his own. At the end, after the orks had finally killed him they left him in an impromtu shrine because he was so hard.
Ulric the Slayer getting a salute from the lord of the world eaters because he killed 3 berzerkers at once.
Nyall leaping from oar to oar while fighting during a sea battle (before he was even a space wolf)

The wolves have always been over the top - it's only when the heresy came along that GW even tried to tone them down IMO.

I want to know what they'll do next - we've had Wolves riding wolves so perhaps we'll get servitor wolves with quintuple linked lascannons or maybe if we're really lucky we'll get the wolf fighter or the wolf bomber which, given the way we're going will be ACTUAL wolves with wings stuck on and flying goggles.

I never said they werent over the top, I said they werent a MILLION times over the top. Regular over the top is just business as usual in 40k. You kind of stacked the deck with rules added to fluff.

JWhex wrote:

I never said they werent over the top, I said they werent a MILLION times over the top. Regular over the top is just business as usual in 40k. You kind of stacked the deck with rules added to fluff.

I was just thinking of examples of things that I thought were over the top in that codex.
Once I get back to my books, I could probably list a lot more. Like that plasma throwing knife

For the "Magnus is Ragnar's bitch"... actually Draigo beat Mortarion who was ENTIRELY in the Materium.
Ragnar pocked Magnus in the Eye while the evocation was in progress, so the Cyclope wasn't in the Materium.
So, yeah, Ragnar in THAT occasion wasn't so OTT. But still, he was.

For the others time, I didn't read so I dunno.

Still, Ragnar is a snowflake in hell.