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That's a fallacy, just because everyone is entitled to an opinion, doesn't make all opinions perfectly valid. Plenty of people like things that are quite terrible. Ipso facto, those are terrible people.
KnowItAll wrote: That's a fallacy, just because everyone is entitled to an opinion, doesn't make all opinions perfectly valid. Plenty of people like things that are quite terrible. Ipso facto, those are terrible people.
Nope, opinions can't be "bad". 'Cause are opinions. Opinions can be argued, but if someone won't change them, they're still valid.
For the SW thing, really, I don't see the problems. You see them as a Chapter made for teenagers, I see them as a Chapter of heroes. You don't like their fluff, I do. Simple as that.
The wolves are back! *feral howl* "Si vis pacem para bellum"
KnowItAll wrote: That's a fallacy, just because everyone is entitled to an opinion, doesn't make all opinions perfectly valid. Plenty of people like things that are quite terrible. Ipso facto, those are terrible people.
Big fat NO...BECAUSE THIS IS A FICTION and FANTASY we are talking...
You sound much like Void Dragon, are you guys related ?
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Big fat NO...BECAUSE THIS IS A FICTION and FANTASY we are talking...
You sound much like Void Dragon, are you guys related ?
Actually VD is quite fair when describe the fluff of X army. Yep, the Wolves of the HH period were donkey-caves. Awesome, ruthless, but still donkey-caves.
The new Wolves, sadly, have a fluff of the "either you love it or hate it" type.
The wolves are back! *feral howl* "Si vis pacem para bellum"
Beaviz81 wrote:What's the worse depends on the eye of the beholder. I still think the Space Marine codex is the worst codex in there, if only because it seems like every Space Marine has a childish wish to become an Ultramarine. Asking me they should just rip the Space Marine codex in two and let the other Space Marines not descending from the Ultras be hammy on their own right. I mean if it is a chapter I wanna know more about then it is the Imperial Fists.
^This. The SM codex could be easily re-named Codex: Ultramarine. The 70% of the fluff, maybe more, is all about the UM and how awesome they are. Iron Hands? Who are they? Raven Guard? LULWUT?
RG -> 1 SC IF -> 1 SC Salamanders -> 1SC
Crimson Fists -> 1SC
WS -> 1 SC UM -> 4SC Iron Hands? -> 0SC
... okay, Ward...
It was originally to be named codex Ultramarines, but they changed it in the last minute. So the OTT-stuff coming out sounds like the Ultras braying as usual. Seriously. It's not like the Ultras have always been OTT and boring.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
They shouldn't get so much hate. True they are the least codex of all the loyalist chapters but they are also one of two Legions that could still operate as a legion if they needed to since they are all on the same world and answer to the leader of the grand company. I mean only the Dark Angels have a structure that could even come close to operating as a single legion and that's because they are all secretly under the command of the Grand Master if he felt like it. Most of the Hate is likely just because of the Whole werewolf thing which is taking away from the much cooler Space Viking thing that people should be focusing on.
PunkNeverDie wrote:
Nope, opinions can't be "bad". 'Cause are opinions. Opinions can be argued, but if someone won't change them, they're still valid.
Opinions can be bad, for instance if they're proven objectively wrong Everyone can have an opinion, but that doesn't mean every opinion is valid. Note: I'm not trying to say that people who like SW's opinions aren't valid, only pointing out that opinions in general can be bad/wrong.
For the SW thing, really, I don't see the problems. You see them as a Chapter made for teenagers, I see them as a Chapter of heroes. You don't like their fluff, I do. Simple as that.
They can be written as a chapter of heroes and still come off as a teenagers bad internet fanfic. SW's have a lot potential to be cool, but the way it comes off depends a lot on the way they are written, which usually falls short.
For instance, Batman is a superhero based on the powers of wealth, willpower, intelligence and wisdom. However, there is a world of difference between Adam West Batman, George Clooney Batman (*shudder*) and Christian Bale Batman. Certain Batman's are liked better than others because of how they are written and portrayed, and George Clooney Batman has many of the same issues that SW's do in the eyes of many (instead of Wolf on everything he uses Bat, like Bat Credit Card... )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/06 20:58:03
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
PunkNeverDie wrote:
Nope, opinions can't be "bad". 'Cause are opinions. Opinions can be argued, but if someone won't change them, they're still valid.
Opinions can be bad, for instance if they're proven objectively wrong Everyone can have an opinion, but that doesn't mean every opinion is valid. Note: I'm not trying to say that people who like SW's opinions aren't valid, only pointing out that opinions in general can be bad/wrong.
For the SW thing, really, I don't see the problems. You see them as a Chapter made for teenagers, I see them as a Chapter of heroes. You don't like their fluff, I do. Simple as that.
They can be written as a chapter of heroes and still come off as a teenagers bad internet fanfic. SW's have a lot potential to be cool, but the way it comes off depends a lot on the way they are written, which usually falls short.
For instance, Batman is a superhero based on the powers of wealth, willpower, intelligence and wisdom. However, there is a world of difference between Adam West Batman, George Clooney Batman (*shudder*) and Christian Bale Batman. Certain Batman's are liked better than others because of how they are written and portrayed, and George Clooney Batman has many of the same issues that SW's do in the eyes of many (instead of Wolf on everything he uses Bat, like Bat Credit Card... )
Don't forget the batcopter,bat ladders, and bat spray...
.
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Beaviz81 wrote: It was originally to be named codex Ultramarines, but they changed it in the last minute. So the OTT-stuff coming out sounds like the Ultras braying as usual. Seriously. It's not like the Ultras have always been OTT and boring.
I like the Smurfs, it's how Ward portraied em that made me go away from 'em. And they aren't all boring. CAPTAIN TITUS!!!
Vaktathi wrote:
Wolf on everything he uses Bat, like Bat Credit Card... )
That Wolf word abouse... *shudder*
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/06 21:15:31
The wolves are back! *feral howl* "Si vis pacem para bellum"
I have never liked the Ultras, they are like Manchester United (especially the fans), and supposed to be awesome yet practical. And the Ultras have always been as boring as whitewash.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
I thought Space Wolves were awesome space vikings that killed giant wolves and sailed the stars fighting, and pillaging. Then I picked up a book and started reading. Wow, was I disappointed. The werewolf theme is so hamfisted into their lore it's not even an interesting angle anymore. Hell in battle of the fang one Bloodclaw wolfs out like 3 times and nobody detains him, (dire as the circumstances were) and he eventually just goes ape on everyone around him.
They would be awesome, in my opinion, without the heavy handed wolf crap.
Also, they're dicks to the fenrisian humans. SW store their egos in their beards, I guess.
Because it was a Space Wolf that said "There were no wolves on Fenris before we were here".
A. There are no wolves on Fenris that aren't Space Wolves.
B. Failed applicants or those who fall to berserker rages transform into wolf-like creatures.
C. Space Wolves ride wolf-like creatures into battle.
Do the math, folks, it's so easy even a Space Wolf could do it.
Does not mean that the Space Wolf was lying or being stupid. White Dwarf 117 (UK) gives us details about Russ's background and information of wolves already present on fenris before his arrival. This comes into conflict with the idea that there are no wolves on Fenris. Lastly the wolves on fenris play a major role in their respective mythology, but because we don't really get a clean pre SW scene of Fenris we cannot tell which came first, the wolves being apart of fenris from the start of the SW introduccing them and shaping their religion with the introduction of wolves. This leaves us with only one good evidence of wolves before SW on Fenris, and that is the origion story of Russ being a wolf child.
TL;DR there are Wolves on Fenris both natural occurying wolves and SW false wolves.
Because it was a Space Wolf that said "There were no wolves on Fenris before we were here".
A. There are no wolves on Fenris that aren't Space Wolves.
B. Failed applicants or those who fall to berserker rages transform into wolf-like creatures.
C. Space Wolves ride wolf-like creatures into battle.
Do the math, folks, it's so easy even a Space Wolf could do it.
Does not mean that the Space Wolf was lying or being stupid. White Dwarf 117 (UK) gives us details about Russ's background and information of wolves already present on fenris before his arrival. This comes into conflict with the idea that there are no wolves on Fenris. Lastly the wolves on fenris play a major role in their respective mythology, but because we don't really get a clean pre SW scene of Fenris we cannot tell which came first, the wolves being apart of fenris from the start of the SW introduccing them and shaping their religion with the introduction of wolves. This leaves us with only one good evidence of wolves before SW on Fenris, and that is the origion story of Russ being a wolf child.
TL;DR there are Wolves on Fenris both natural occurying wolves and SW false wolves.
Considering that White Dwarf 117 (1989) came out long before second edition (1993). It's very much likely that information isn't current with anything anymore, as much was already retconned around 2nd, but then much more was changed/retconned around 3rd edition. It is very, very unlikely that the information is still the same anymore.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/08 21:14:50
His wolves are still very much apart of the story, they are even incorperated into the the SW psyker powers, and story with russ fighting with wolves. So it is still quite plausible that wolves existed pre-SW on fenris.
Because it was a Space Wolf that said "There were no wolves on Fenris before we were here".
A. There are no wolves on Fenris that aren't Space Wolves.
B. Failed applicants or those who fall to berserker rages transform into wolf-like creatures.
C. Space Wolves ride wolf-like creatures into battle.
Do the math, folks, it's so easy even a Space Wolf could do it.
Does not mean that the Space Wolf was lying or being stupid. White Dwarf 117 (UK) gives us details about Russ's background and information of wolves already present on fenris before his arrival. This comes into conflict with the idea that there are no wolves on Fenris. Lastly the wolves on fenris play a major role in their respective mythology, but because we don't really get a clean pre SW scene of Fenris we cannot tell which came first, the wolves being apart of fenris from the start of the SW introduccing them and shaping their religion with the introduction of wolves. This leaves us with only one good evidence of wolves before SW on Fenris, and that is the origion story of Russ being a wolf child.
TL;DR there are Wolves on Fenris both natural occurying wolves and SW false wolves.
Considering that White Dwarf 117 (1989) came out long before second edition (1993). It's very much likely that information isn't current with anything anymore, as much was already retconned around 2nd, but then much more was changed/retconned around 3rd edition. It is very, very unlikely that the information is still the same anymore.
I haven't found anything that contradicts the fact that there weren't any wolves on Fenris before Leman Russ came there. All the nay-sayers at best have come up with is pure hearsay, nothing more, nothing less.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Something that I am genuinely curious about, and I'm hoping that someone can answer this for me, as I am quite earnest here, but why is the thought of the wolves on Fenris being failed Space Wolves such a terrible thing?
Why is the whole idea of it so abhorrent to people arguing against it? Is it because they don't want to be associated with mutants? Is it for some other reason? Can some of the folks arguing against that explain why it is such a "absolutely no" thing?
While I personally like the space wolves, , from what I can see the major gripe people have with their background is that it's a bit to "wacky" (or wolfy wolf wolf wolf) that doesn't fit in with the rest of the universe
curran12 wrote:Something that I am genuinely curious about, and I'm hoping that someone can answer this for me, as I am quite earnest here, but why is the thought of the wolves on Fenris being failed Space Wolves such a terrible thing?
Why is the whole idea of it so abhorrent to people arguing against it? Is it because they don't want to be associated with mutants? Is it for some other reason? Can some of the folks arguing against that explain why it is such a "absolutely no" thing?
Its needlessly bizarre, and also, it would mean a lot of Space Wolves would have to be constantly turning into wolves, in order to maintain the population. They're all male, so they can't breed. Also, it raises implications about whether or not the wolves are intelligent, and its makes it disturbing to see a Space Wolf riding a wolf.
curran12 wrote: Something that I am genuinely curious about, and I'm hoping that someone can answer this for me, as I am quite earnest here, but why is the thought of the wolves on Fenris being failed Space Wolves such a terrible thing?
Why is the whole idea of it so abhorrent to people arguing against it? Is it because they don't want to be associated with mutants? Is it for some other reason? Can some of the folks arguing against that explain why it is such a "absolutely no" thing?
in theory, it's not a terrible thing. The way it's introduced and the late era of its introduction comes off as really...I struggle to find the right word, but generally overdone and unnecessary, taking the Wolf thing past the point of "rule of cool" and into parody territory when it isn't trying to do that.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Blood Angels are awesome IMO way better than the wolves who are the dwarfs of 40k, desperately clinging to tradition and reluctant to change. To the point where they accuse all other chapters/legions of being weak and untrustworthy. Also they had the most hypocritical idiot of a Primarch ever who would have been annihilated by Sanguinius, Angron, Horus, Lion, Corax, (mid heresy) Lorgar if they had ever fought him. The wolves also got majorly slapped around by Alpha legion and would have been utterly destroyed on Prospero if Phosis T'kar had got over his guilt or Magnus had bothered to show up earlier.
To add to that point, pretty much the only reason they won was because:
1 they has tons of sisters of silence
2 Thousand sons didn't even attack the wolves until they were half way into Tizca.
curran12 wrote: Something that I am genuinely curious about, and I'm hoping that someone can answer this for me, as I am quite earnest here, but why is the thought of the wolves on Fenris being failed Space Wolves such a terrible thing?
Why is the whole idea of it so abhorrent to people arguing against it? Is it because they don't want to be associated with mutants? Is it for some other reason? Can some of the folks arguing against that explain why it is such a "absolutely no" thing?
To be honest it contradicts fluff and worse biology. I have the opinion that the people that really hate the Space Wolves holds it just because they either think it's fun or is a cool thing to say or worst of all just are griefers and trolls (I'm not saying you are, but it can appear the way for me). I can't see any honest reason for arguing for it. You go up against both fluff and biology with claiming that, and many people detest the wolf-thingy of the Space Wolves, they wanted Vikings not strange hairy beasts that makes their women scared. I see more the Viking-side of the Space Wolves than the wolf-side.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
curran12 wrote: Something that I am genuinely curious about, and I'm hoping that someone can answer this for me, as I am quite earnest here, but why is the thought of the wolves on Fenris being failed Space Wolves such a terrible thing?
Why is the whole idea of it so abhorrent to people arguing against it? Is it because they don't want to be associated with mutants? Is it for some other reason? Can some of the folks arguing against that explain why it is such a "absolutely no" thing?
To be honest it contradicts fluff and worse biology. I have the opinion that the people that really hate the Space Wolves holds it just because they either think it's fun or is a cool thing to say or worst of all just are griefers and trolls (I'm not saying you are, but it can appear the way for me). I can't see any honest reason for arguing for it. You go up against both fluff and biology with claiming that, and many people detest the wolf-thingy of the Space Wolves, they wanted Vikings not strange hairy beasts that makes their women scared. I see more the Viking-side of the Space Wolves than the wolf-side.
Well as people have stated time and again because this is 40K there is little to no real-world basis explanation for their technology and things such as the warp alongside literally inexplicable things like magic/sorcery means that many things can get by in 40K with the suspension of disbelief, especially given the cryptic nature of the setting. 40K is hardly "hard" science-fiction; it's more like fantasy in space (furthered from the fact that there are Orc, Elf, Ogre, and heck even Dwarf equivalents in the setting) and similar to fantasy there's outrageous things like werewolf equivalents that have and need no scientific explanation considering the context of the setting. How does biology in 40K explain Chaos Spawn? How does it explain things such as the Plague of Unbelief and other warp-based pathogens that bypass the physical understanding of biology? Not to mention of course that current understanding of biology is again limited to our own timeframe and this is set in the future. It's very possible that the current foundations of our biological rules/understanding is shaken drastically and changed completely by the time of 40K which, in conjunction of the fantasy-like setting, makes Were-wolf/failed Aspirant-turned-wolf not that hard to believe. Honestly if you want realism, 40K is one of the things farthest from it, especially when it comes to explaining how things work.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/08 23:29:07
Chaos Spawn are endless mutation, and mutation doesn't transfer one stable species into another, at least not in merely 40k. years. And it's pretty meaningless as an argument to defend a stable species with the raw mutating power of the warp. For me it points to that you are a person that's just a hater. I can accept something there. But you can't just go against fluff, the failed Space Wolves turn into Wulfen, not wolves. That's just a rather old and stupid joke grabbed out of what seems to be a very lame joke. And yes it's that hard to believe, it proves you have no limits whatsoever when it comes to basic biology. But then again I know better now to just point to that. You go up against fluff when you are going for such a point.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Beaviz81 wrote: Chaos Spawn are endless mutation, and mutation doesn't transfer one stable species into another, at least not in merely 40k. years. And it's pretty meaningless as an argument to defend a stable species with the raw mutating power of the warp. For me it points to that you are a person that's just a hater. I can accept something there. But you can't just go against fluff, the failed Space Wolves turn into Wulfen, not wolves. That's just a rather old and stupid joke grabbed out of what seems to be a very lame joke. And yes it's that hard to believe, it proves you have no limits whatsoever when it comes to basic biology. But then again I know better now to just point to that. You go up against fluff when you are going for such a point.
Wait what? How am I a hater exactly? I'm just proposing as to why werewolves/aspirant-turned-wolves aren't that far fetched in the larger context of 40k's setting. Also in terms of Chaos Spawn I hope you realize you still didn't explain how it's even possible that Chaos Spawn exist the way they are considering there is no real life basis/equivalent for Chaos/Warp based mutation which can allow things not intrinsically in our genes to pop out like crazy; again the laws of mutation as we know it now are not applicable to Chaos Spawn because GW didn't give it a legitimate real-world basis on it. I don't understand why you have such a hard adherence to biology to a setting where there's an entire dimension in 40K where the laws of the physical universe don't apply. Heck Old Zogwort in the Ork Codex used his psychic powers to instantly change humans to squigs, a completely different species, how does biology in 40K explain that? And where does it explicitly state by the way that failed aspirants don't turn into wolves?
In the codex, they turn into slavering monstrosities named the Wulfen. Plus since I don't like that thought I dismiss it as mere hearsay, and the burden of evidence doesn't really rest with me, since I have the codex to fall back on.
Also, I haven't read the Ork-codex, but that's kind of different, that's polymorphing. A completely different game. At least I don't think the human squids could breed.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Wait, so simply because you dislike fluff such as the Wulfen you disregard it? As in you don't acknowledge it as possible or legitimate? It's fine not to like it but to ignore something written down as "canon fluff" (made all the more interesting considering your adherence to codex fluff above all more or less) seems kind of weird because then you only believe your own altered version which leads me to ask why you bother arguing this point at all?
Also how exactly is Old Zogwort's psychic powers an exception? The fact that he can bypass a creature's own innate biology into becoming an entirely different species in a flash demonstrates how biology and science means diddly squat in 40K since there's nothing in modern biology that could explain this happening in such a short amount of time. Besides the fact that you used the idea of polymorphing shows that you can't acknowledge this event from a scientific or biological standpoint because there isn't such a thing IRL. Again the setting shows a lot of inexplicable events and things which more or less happens because of "hey magic!" which by extension makes the possibility of the Space Wolves having some form of degenerate wolf-form (either in simple Wulfen terms or to a greater extent of becoming practically a full-blown wolf) not that hard of a sell.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/09 00:11:32
I don't disregard the Wulfen, I disregard the Wulfen turning into wolves. I disregard anything that goes against basic biology which I can back up with a codex. So telling me that proves to me you have just not bothered with biology and I don't bother explaining it over and over, maybe I'm rude, maybe I'm just tired making the same point over and over again to different and equally ignorant people. Try read up about biology, it's in fact an interesting read, and my points stands. Too little time for the species to merge. Merely 40k years, the codex is backing me, not you and so on. You have the burden of evidence not me.
As for polymorph. Just Google the word. There you will find an explanation. And it's usually temporarily, that's my basic take on it.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Okay....I know what polymorph means and in the way it is portrayed in Old Zogwort's fluff it isn't biologically based in any sense (again it's basically magic/sorcery) that doesn't occur in any everyday scientific sense so I don't see how it proves that basic biology works the way you think it does in 40k.
Here's the actual quote where he uses his powers by the way: "When Zogwort could hold it no more this energy would burst forth in a blinding cascade of pure green light that engulfed the foe, leaving nothing but empty clothes, discarded wargear and puzzled squigs in its wake." (pg 62).
Also yes, sadly you not explaining yourself does seem quite lazy as I have been providing multiple examples of biology being repeatedly confounded and bypassed in fluff within 40K yet you can't give me a legitimate reason, quote or otherwise solid piece of evidence that tells me otherwise. It's not much of a debate when you keep telling me you don't have to prove anything as well as basically saying "You're wrong, not worth my time and shut up because I'm right."
Also it's quite presumptuous to make a statement of my knowledge of biology considering this is about how it DOESN'T work like it normally does within the confines of 40K. Try to be a little bit more respectful, not only in terms of tone but also in how you respond. I'm trying to see how you're coming this sort of conclusion based on the idea of biology when it in itself doesn't work in this circumstance. You not giving me anything to explain this besides minimal attempts at referring to the codex (with no quoting/page numbers may I add since I have it as well) isn't helping your case.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/09 00:35:06
Then stop contradicting biology and bring me some proof which I can't just disregard with the Space Wolves codex, instead of whining about it.
And you know how polymorph works in games like Baldur's Gate and such. At least I'm happy the clothes weren't attached when they got polymorphed.
And I make any statement I see fit to people who go up against biology as it's just not something people can't just baselessly claim and then be surprised that I don't accept, infact I tend to view such argument as too stupid to respond to. I accept the human sapiens sapiens to turn into sapiens gigantus and minimatus and sapiens superior. Not into Human Sapiens Canis to provide you with an in game example of biology. Which I don't think you realistically can't counter. There now I even backed my argument up with the best of both worlds.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Grey elder wrote: His wolves are still very much apart of the story, they are even incorperated into the the SW psyker powers, and story with russ fighting with wolves. So it is still quite plausible that wolves existed pre-SW on fenris.
And don't forget Freki and Geri who fought on Prospero....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
The wolves are back! *feral howl* 
3200 points 
> 5400 points
2500 points 
Everyone can have an opinion, but that doesn't mean every opinion is valid. Note: I'm not trying to say that people who like 
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