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 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Yeah, sort of like that thing I just said.

You agree with me I guess, lol?

Sorry, I miss read

Which beggars the question, how do the Space Wolves still get away with it.

Pretty much everyone ignored the stipulation and "got away with it". Magnus didn't get in trouble until he breached the Webway, Angron didn't care what his Librarians did, Lion killed the Chaplain that objected to his use of a Librarian when he needed it, Guilliman immediately realized the mistake of the pronouncement, Sanguinius ordered his guys to submit but understood when they breached protocol, etc. All of these Legions essentially dismissed the decree and didn't mince words about it, the Space Wolves were the only ones to lie to themselves and others about how "we are different, it's lyfe and deth cycle of Fenris! Raarh, question me no longer!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I also see insanity, expecting a good written codex is like expecting a sympathetic Manchester United. Codexes are known for their hyperbole, so you can't expect a good read.

So now your argument has morphed from "shut up my guys are awesome" to "shut up other books are also terrible"? Well, at least you now agree that Space Wolves are terribly written. It's progress. The only difference in our position now is that some of us feel the Space Wolves are the most terribly written, which really isn't that much of a distinction. I'm glad we managed to resolve this.

Space Wolves isn't as bad as Grey Knights.

Fair enough, that's an equally valid opinion, and again, not a huge distinction from my own position. I feel the volume of all the awful Space Wolf fluff outweighs one awful Grey Knights codex.

The degree of dislike doesn't really matter as long as we're all agreeing that they're terrible, which seems to be the case now.

KnowItAll wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I also see insanity, expecting a good written codex is like expecting a sympathetic Manchester United. Codexes are known for their hyperbole, so you can't expect a good read.

So now your argument has morphed from "shut up my guys are awesome" to "shut up other books are also terrible"? Well, at least you now agree that Space Wolves are terribly written. It's progress. The only difference in our position now is that some of us feel the Space Wolves are the most terribly written, which really isn't that much of a distinction. I'm glad we managed to resolve this.

What are your expectations for codexes? Glorious read, or rulebook first and storybook second? I know what I expect when reading a codex. That's not the glorious read, especially if the name of the author are Matt Ward or Phil Kelly.

I disagree with them being the worst, the Space Marine codex is still the worst hands down.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Space Wolves isn't as bad as Grey Knights.

Who are you?! What did you do to Void___Dragon?!

Agree, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KnowItAll wrote:

The degree of dislike doesn't really matter as long as we're all agreeing that they're terrible, which seems to be the case now.

I disagree 'cause I have my opinion. SW Codex > SM or GK ones.
IF you don't like 'em it doesn't mean WE can't like it. I don't think you're a Messia of the Good Writing, nor I expect you to be a critic. If you are, please, show me your license or what.
In the end, you have YOUR opinions, others have their owns and yours aren't right like theirs (or ours) aren't right. 'Cause are opinions.

End of the story.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Space Wolves isn't as bad as Grey Knights.

Who are you?! What did you do to Void___Dragon?!

Agree, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KnowItAll wrote:

The degree of dislike doesn't really matter as long as we're all agreeing that they're terrible, which seems to be the case now.

I disagree 'cause I have my opinion. SW Codex > SM or GK ones.
IF you don't like 'em it doesn't mean WE can't like it. I don't think you're a Messia of the Good Writing, nor I expect you to be a critic. If you are, please, show me your license or what.
In the end, you have YOUR opinions, others have their owns and yours aren't right like theirs (or ours) aren't right. 'Cause are opinions.

End of the story.

So your opinion is that everyone should shut up and stop criticizing it? Not an Opinion I agree with at all, nor should anyone else.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So your opinion is that everyone should shut up and stop criticizing it? Not an Opinion I agree with at all, nor should anyone else.

I didn't say that. I said that you can't say: "Your opinion is right as long as you say SW Books are terrible" 'cause are OPINIONS and are influenced by tastes.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So your opinion is that everyone should shut up and stop criticizing it? Not an Opinion I agree with at all, nor should anyone else.

Nothing there? hmm.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

I disagree 'cause I have my opinion. SW Codex > SM or GK ones.
IF you don't like 'em it doesn't mean WE can't like it. I don't think you're a Messia of the Good Writing, nor I expect you to be a critic. If you are, please, show me your license or what.
In the end, you have YOUR opinions, others have their owns and yours aren't right like theirs (or ours) aren't right. 'Cause are opinions.

End of the story.

Okay.

English Literature major in college.
Writing and Editing Certifications.
Published co-author of scholastic journals.
Professional Writer.

Space Wolves fluff is not good. Doesn't mean that there is worse, but all of the problems I've said before are there.

Satisfied?

Just because there's worse stuff out there doesn't mean that it's automatically good.

 Melissia wrote:
Just because there's worse stuff out there doesn't mean that it's automatically good.

And since when have I judged dice-throw 2 as good?

 curran12 wrote:

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

I disagree 'cause I have my opinion. SW Codex > SM or GK ones.
IF you don't like 'em it doesn't mean WE can't like it. I don't think you're a Messia of the Good Writing, nor I expect you to be a critic. If you are, please, show me your license or what.
In the end, you have YOUR opinions, others have their owns and yours aren't right like theirs (or ours) aren't right. 'Cause are opinions.

End of the story.

Okay.

English Literature major in college.
Writing and Editing Certifications.
Published co-author of scholastic journals.
Professional Writer.

Space Wolves fluff is not good. Doesn't mean that there is worse, but all of the problems I've said before are there.

Satisfied?

Huh? After you did a nice critique earlier (which I exalted), what gives you the right to pass judgment on your qualification basis?
I mean, what are you even doing in ott 40k ? I' ve had my fair share of books (philosophy, history and science), and I enjoy 40k as it is....Plain old fantasy circus....
No offense, but I really don't understand when someone rates 40k as "this is good, this isn't" (because I say so)....

 DarthMarko wrote:


Huh? After you did a nice critique earlier (which I exalted), what gives you the right to pass judgment on your qualification basis?
I mean, what are you even doing in ott 40k ? I' ve had my fair share of books (philosophy, history and science), and I enjoy 40k as it is....Plain old fantasy circus....
No offense, but I really don't understand when someone rates 40k as "this is good, this isn't" (because I say so)....

Just giving Punk what he was asking for. ;p

He wanted it, so I gave him my background, why do you think I gave the in depth criticism before? That was me using that background. :p

 curran12 wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:


Huh? After you did a nice critique earlier (which I exalted), what gives you the right to pass judgment on your qualification basis?
I mean, what are you even doing in ott 40k ? I' ve had my fair share of books (philosophy, history and science), and I enjoy 40k as it is....Plain old fantasy circus....
No offense, but I really don't understand when someone rates 40k as "this is good, this isn't" (because I say so)....

Just giving Punk what he was asking for. ;p

He wanted it, so I gave him my background, why do you think I gave the in depth criticism before? That was me using that background. :p

No problem dude, just (for me) it was a bit shock ...You give nice realistic comment and then WHAM - THEY SUCK...

I think you are mistaking 'not good' for 'SUCK'. While I recognize that this is the Internet, and anything that is not full-throated praise is seen as 'hating' I'm a little more subdued than that. Just because I am not jumping out to praise something does not necessarily mean I think it sucks. And here's the big tip; if I take the time to write out why I think something is not working, it is not because I want to tear it down, but it is because I want it to improve. If I wanted something just wrecked, I wouldn't give it that time and thought.

The Space Wolf fluff, overall, is not that good by my lights, there are parts I like and parts I dislike. I'm not calling it out as suck, but I'm also not going to sugar-coat when I think something isn't good. :p

Have there been any Space Wolf stories or novels you have liked out of curiosity?

@Curran I think you lost your cool for a moment then:-)

Thing is, if you have read many books, watched many movies and played a lot of games you can spot the pattern on some writers :-)
And then it's wake up time (in my case) - Ward whines, ultramarines, haters, my second life as dreadnaut just went away etc.
I know this sounds silly, but this is a curse called analytical mind....

 curran12 wrote:

Okay.

English Literature major in college.
Writing and Editing Certifications.
Published co-author of scholastic journals.
Professional Writer.

Space Wolves fluff is not good. Doesn't mean that there is worse, but all of the problems I've said before are there.

Satisfied?

Ok, you have your licenses, so it means that you have more experience than me and you can surely judge books better than me.
What I said was simply De gustibus non disputandum est.
You can't say "if you think SW novels suck then your opinion is acceptable, otherwise not", and of course this goes for the opposite too.
I'm the first sayin' that the Ragnar's novels suck, but someone else could have another opinion.
I dunno if I explained myself here.

Hmm, I pulled out the last SW codex and read the fluff parts again. Much worse than I remembered. Not that the fluff in any of the codex books is written to a decent standard but the codex background writing is a bad joke.

i love my wolves for various reasons, ill admit that maybe not all the writing isn't that good and that some things are over the top but i really like them regardless.
but that's not why i'm here. when I was picking up my first kit & codex, a guy in the store started talking to me. the topic turned to what i was starting my hobby experience with i showed him my SW codex and he simply states "O great, another space wolf player" i don't remember why he said he didn't like them but I liked the models and the idea behind them.
i've forgotten the point I was going to make after doing something but even after reading 14 pages of hate i'm not discouraged (a little bit ashamed though ) to say I still love my wolves even if their problems are many in number.
also I'm sorry to hear so much hate to me and my wolfbrothers. maybe next codex or book series we can rejoice in the name of the emprah

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

You can't say "if you think SW novels suck then your opinion is acceptable, otherwise not", and of course this goes for the opposite too.
I'm the first sayin' that the Ragnar's novels suck, but someone else could have another opinion.
I dunno if I explained myself here.

Except, no one ever said that. I just noted the fact that everytime the SW white knights run out of weak excuses, they pull out the old "well other fluff is terrible, too" card, which isn't much of an excuse either.

Never used other armies fluff. Also, again, what if I like the SW fluff (which I do, mind you)? Fluff can't be "objectively" terrible. 'Cause it depends by tastes.
Ex: some 2nd-4th edition Cron players whined about the new fluff, others like it 'cause it added more personality to the army. See my point here?
Honestly, you think SW fluff is terrible? See how much I care.
I quoted your previuos statement for this.

You have your tastes, who am I to judge you?

They actually had their personality, then Matt Ward came along and gave them awesome as their personality.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Matt Ward came along and gave them awesome as their personality.

The only good thing Ward did so far IMHO. Maybe he's improving, who knows?

I liked life-hating better than merely awesome as a personality. But that's me. For me they should be like the Terminator and just hate anything with a pulse as that's like very offensive to them.

The newcron codex is the worst codex in recent times.

Not because the quality of the writing itself is terrible, but because, rather than fix the problems with the fluff while retaining the core themes and feel of the army, they were just entirely retconned into being another faction of hammy cartoon villains.

What's the worse depends on the eye of the beholder. I still think the Space Marine codex is the worst codex in there, if only because it seems like every Space Marine has a childish wish to become an Ultramarine. Asking me they should just rip the Space Marine codex in two and let the other Space Marines not descending from the Ultras be hammy on their own right. I mean if it is a chapter I wanna know more about then it is the Imperial Fists.

Void__Dragon wrote:The newcron codex is the worst codex in recent times.

Not because the quality of the writing itself is terrible, but because, rather than fix the problems with the fluff while retaining the core themes and feel of the army, they were just entirely retconned into being another faction of hammy cartoon villains.

Again, de gustibus. Maybe is my point of view, but new fluff is more likeable. For me, at least.

Beaviz81 wrote:What's the worse depends on the eye of the beholder. I still think the Space Marine codex is the worst codex in there, if only because it seems like every Space Marine has a childish wish to become an Ultramarine. Asking me they should just rip the Space Marine codex in two and let the other Space Marines not descending from the Ultras be hammy on their own right. I mean if it is a chapter I wanna know more about then it is the Imperial Fists.

^This. The SM codex could be easily re-named Codex: Ultramarine. The 70% of the fluff, maybe more, is all about the UM and how awesome they are. Iron Hands? Who are they? Raven Guard? LULWUT?
RG -> 1 SC
IF -> 1 SC
Salamanders -> 1SC
Crimson Fists -> 1SC
WS -> 1 SC
UM -> 4 SC
Iron Hands? -> 0 SC

... okay, Ward...

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
Never used other armies fluff. Also, again, what if I like the SW fluff (which I do, mind you)? Fluff can't be "objectively" terrible. 'Cause it depends by tastes.
Ex: some 2nd-4th edition Cron players whined about the new fluff, others like it 'cause it added more personality to the army. See my point here?
Honestly, you think SW fluff is terrible? See how much I care.
I quoted your previuos statement for this.

You have your tastes, who am I to judge you?

Fluff can very much be "objectively" terrible, if it's written like a fevered adolescent wet dream.

And you seem to care quite a bit, considering how much energy you expended staunchly defending them in a thread discussing their short-comings.

KnowItAll wrote:

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
Never used other armies fluff. Also, again, what if I like the SW fluff (which I do, mind you)? Fluff can't be "objectively" terrible. 'Cause it depends by tastes.
Ex: some 2nd-4th edition Cron players whined about the new fluff, others like it 'cause it added more personality to the army. See my point here?
Honestly, you think SW fluff is terrible? See how much I care.
I quoted your previuos statement for this.

You have your tastes, who am I to judge you?

Fluff can very much be "objectively" terrible, if it's written like a fevered adolescent wet dream.

And you seem to care quite a bit, considering how much energy you expended staunchly defending them in a thread discussing their short-comings.

Maybe you didn't understand my point. Again.
You don't like SW fluff, lulz see if I REALLY care. I discuss like others, is that I crime? Can't I say my opinions? Again, this proves my point.
And no, Objectively Terrible Fluff exist only for you, 'cause even if ONE guy likes it, it isn't OBJECTIVELEY terrible anymore.