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Haven't PP models always been like that though? I mean, the Jacks have always had over-exaggerated features and size ratios. Isn't that kinda their "style", in the same way that anime style is Soda Pop's?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Haven't PP models always been like that though? I mean, the Jacks have always had over-exaggerated features and size ratios. Isn't that kinda their "style", in the same way that anime style is Soda Pop's?

No, it's getting worse with them too. Pauldrons have got so big they aren't even comical anymore, and their output has become more cartoony as well: look at for example new Tharn Ravagers, particularly their Simpsonesque expressions.

Yeah, can't wait to nostalgia our way back to the late 80s with all those fantastic multipose minis that were available.

Oh.

Some new units look screwy, you don't have to buy them. Some look awesome. But don't let that stop you making empty I'll move to warmahordes you watch me *shakes fist* threats.

I actually like most of the models in the new high elf release.

The flamespyre phoenix, sky cutter, loremaster, shadow warriors and sisters of avelorn are personal favourites.

Not so keen on the frost phoenix though.

rohansoldier wrote:
I actually like most of the models in the new high elf release.

The flamespyre phoenix, sky cutter, loremaster, shadow warriors and sisters of avelorn are personal favourites.

Not so keen on the frost phoenix though.

I'm not keen on the phoenix minis - the wing joins are clearly visible and its a very flat two dimensional mini. Could probably make a press mold of one very easily.

Backfire wrote:

 poda_t wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
Just been looking through the recent new releases over the past say 8 months and GWs models have become terrible! There clunky and goofy looking, details haven't been picked out properly. They have really let their game slide! They were producing better models 5 years ago then they are now. Then I saw the new HE release and nearly wept... For those who haven't seen it, their terrible. Seems like forge world is the only one producing good models these days...

It seems to me you are in ignorance of reaper and privateer press.

I don't think he is. Privateer Press releases of late suffer from exact same case of cartoony execution than GW models.

To be fair, poda_t does have a point. BaconUprising thinks only Forgeworld makes good models... yeah, no. Reaper and PP were just bad examples.

I would love to see some of GWs basic kits redone. There is lots of stuff that needs it in my opinion, such as the TK horsemen and infantry. However, I cannot blame GW for their strategy. If they redid kits there would be people saying that GW just wants them to replace their old stuff. Some people would be left with mixed armies. There would also be people who say the old stuff looks better than the new stuff. (Some of its does. Just look at the old plastic multi part skeles from the 90s, versus the TK ones.)

They have decided to make new large kits. Few game manufacturers are making such kits. Thus, GW has less competition in terms of alternative kits. The fact that they are new unit types 'forces' vets to buy them to stay in the game.

I absolutely hate the old High Elf core troops.

Their hands are fething massive. It's like they've got elephantiatis on their hands or something, and the faces on the Silver Helms makes it look like they're constipated or something. The spears are also too thick. Imagine fighting with that!

They should have re-done them.

I think the main issue with GW is that they want to increase unit diversity in an army, and make loads of new kits. This, however, means that older kits are neglected. It also makes less sense from a cost point of view - if it costs, say, 20,000 dollars to produce the things needed to make one kit (from concept art, design and mould making), why make a unit that everyone has anyway?

Before long all armies will be made from a single £100 kit, each kit making half a unit.

Ok scaremongering and snide remarks aside, i'm with the "their a bit hit and miss" camp. Say what you want about the GK, their PA are no more ridiculous than regular marines, and their termi armour looks nicer than the mainstream ones to me. Same with alot of the newer kits not looking all that bad, better than the old WoC. The new ones may be monopose, but its better than this

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq305/GrumpyKiwi/ChaosWarriorTzench01.jpg

I actually quite like that model. It has a certain charm to it.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
I actually quite like that model. It has a certain charm to it.

Fair enough, and that's your opinion that you're entitled to. Which brings the other point, what I consider a dodgy looking model, and what you consider "The latest GW gak letdown" are two different things. I'm sure there's some out there who love the chaos dinobots or the tiny little riptide head, same as there's probably someone who likes the HE eagle kite.

Here's my conjecture on what's been happening lately.

1. Why is stuff getting 'weird' and looking outlandish?

IP and alternative companies making counts-as kits has produced wacky stuff like the flying chariot and the other weird looking kits. This ensures that what GW is making is very 'out there' and that by imitating it, you make it clearer that you're potentially infringing IP. They are widening the 'moat' by making their stuff as distinctive as possible. Distinctive is not always good and in the rush to combine this with more rapid releases, odd looking stuff is getting through faster. Remember that the design studio is considerably smaller these days and that plus increased pressure for deadlines is possibly creating /approved results instead of /the feth were you thinking results. That and then the stuff is being finally approved for production by a senior management brought in from other retail arenas, not hobbyist savvy, instead of back in the day when it was all being bounced around the design studio by people with degrees in greek mythology, historical reenactors and classically trained illustrators. New models no longer face the crucible of critique from the gestalt of the design team, they now face the demand of the suits and the accountants.

2. Why are they ignoring the infantry that needs redoing instead of releasing bizarre gak and giant monsters???

Cash. Profit. There are already existing models, don't need redoing in the current grab for a maximized bottom line. Folks who already have a high elf army already have huge amounts of those 'old spearmen that need redoing' and given GW's penchant for prices, many would balk at new infantry and just decide to keep the old minis. But if they release a brand new kit, a big expensive one that becomes a must have, then old and new gamers will 'need' it for their games and have no older mini to rely on. So a novel unit with a novel kit sells to more people = higher profit. + no wasted monies on R&D for GW on something that's already been done.

Personally i am getting rather fed up with all these shiny new "big toy" releases. Now i know that some of them are good and all have rules its just i do feel that things such as the catachans, the chaos warriors and the marines are in need of a re-sculpt. And as for models being in scale? To all those people whom worship GW and say that all the models are in scale with each other and how dare we say otherwise i have but 2 words to say to you: Space Marines

Yeah? What about them?

I think the HE eagle kite looks fine. The concept of it may be a touch off, but the model looks fantastic.

I also think all of the new Tau stuff looks great.

I think the DA speeders with the lame cupola for the weapons look bad.

I think the dread knight looks like its carrying a baby.

JWhex wrote:
I dont agree with the OP. The quality is variable and it always has been. Usually more hit than miss.

This. The earlier post of, 'Opinions are like-' although rudely put (and amusingly altered by the word filter), is kind of apt. Necrons have always been Tomb Kings in Space (even in 3rd edition, the Eypatian themes were there), and at least now they have character - and if you don't like it, it perfectly easy to just use the models that let you build your legion of identical robots.

The new Tau models are another good example. I always liked the underslung FW broadsides, because that made what was supposed to be a heavier battlesuit distinctly different than GW's 'crisis suits with shoulder guns,' so the new design really works for me.

Anyways, there are ups and down for every release by every company, so for me the level of model quality is same as it ever was.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Here's my conjecture on what's been happening lately.

1. Why is stuff getting 'weird' and looking outlandish?

IP and alternative companies making counts-as kits has produced wacky stuff like the flying chariot and the other weird looking kits. This ensures that what GW is making is very 'out there' and that by imitating it, you make it clearer that you're potentially infringing IP.

If this is actually the reason, they're just tilting at windmills (which makes me believe it's not actually the reason). They have no way to stop an Asia-based recaster from duplicating their stuff, and some of those Asian recasts are actually pretty good. There's no way they can stop those guys, and increasingly it looks like they can't even stop a Chapterhouse-type aftermarket parts dealer either.

Bottom line, they'd probably make a lot more money just producing better product that there was customer demand for rather than creating weird, outlandish stuff that could theoretically limit copycat knockoffs (but probably won't). At this point, looks like they're really catering to that 'tweens' demographic at risk of cannibalizing their own player base, selling expensive crap that the fanbois will buy because they're fanbois.

Starting roughly with the Dreadknight, and I'm thinking in particular about the flying metal chaos Dragon and the DA land speeder with WAY MORE SKULLS, it seems like they ask a twelve year old what would be 'really awesome and amazingballs in 6 words or fewer' and then make whatever he describes exactly as he describes it.

'Flying metal dragon monster--with spikes!'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Haven't PP models always been like that though? I mean, the Jacks have always had over-exaggerated features and size ratios. Isn't that kinda their "style", in the same way that anime style is Soda Pop's?

There are a tiny handful of very old models in PP's current line that are obviously not made to the same scale as others. The only reason anybody really cares is because one of those sets is the character Cygnaran gunmages, who are incredibly versatile and on-table good. The Trollbloods line has also had a few problems with recent 'cartoony' additions, but these are all very much the exception rather than the norm.

I've actually been amazed at the quality of PP's recent releases from both an aesthetic and execution standpoint. Google 'Mountain King' or 'Archangel' to see some really amazing sculpts.

For every mountain king and archangel, there's Lelyth Claus

Two to one ration certainly isn't bad.

 -Loki- wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 poda_t wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
Just been looking through the recent new releases over the past say 8 months and GWs models have become terrible! There clunky and goofy looking, details haven't been picked out properly. They have really let their game slide! They were producing better models 5 years ago then they are now. Then I saw the new HE release and nearly wept... For those who haven't seen it, their terrible. Seems like forge world is the only one producing good models these days...

It seems to me you are in ignorance of reaper and privateer press.

I don't think he is. Privateer Press releases of late suffer from exact same case of cartoony execution than GW models.

To be fair, poda_t does have a point. BaconUprising thinks only Forgeworld makes good models... yeah, no. Reaper and PP were just bad examples.

I don't think only GW and forge world models that's why I titled the thread "what has happened to GW models" not what has happened to all models I agree many independent smaller companies make great models like avatars of war. Just out of interest what is tha model in the picture?

That is the Tohaa faction's "Gao-Tarsos Unit"(specifically it is one model, armed with a Combi Rifle) by Corvus Belli for their "Infinity" game.

That model is beautiful. Corvus Belli make fantastic models. Remind me why I haven't started playing?

BaconUprising wrote:

I don't think only GW and forge world models that's why I titled the thread "what has happened to GW models" not what has happened to all models I agree many independent smaller companies make great models like avatars of war. Just out of interest what is tha model in the picture?

welllll, here's the trick right, it's only GW and FW that make models for their game right, so saying that FW knows what it's doing and GW doesn't, stacks the argument already. You're not stopped from using exclusively GW models to play their game (unless you play under their roof). For instance I found some nice models from reaper, that with two mods turned them into decent replacements for characters in my 40k armies. The difference is $6 with reaper, or $30 with GW for a character? yeah, yeah no. 1 cubic inch of resin is not worth $30 to me, especially as it's a game piece, not a show piece.

There are a number of other manufacturers that make good looking things. Take for instance, Anvil Industry. I'm not overly fond of the way some of their gear looks, but they do make a lot of good looking gear. Then there's also puppetswar, scibor... I'd love to list more, but I''ve noticed a bias toward 40k, so I'm not sure what alternatives there are to fantasy, but if this are among the comparisons you want to make, it'd be worthwhile mentioning them, because looking at only one line

as and aside, I disagree that PP and Reaper don't make good models. Look at the price. Comparing the price against what you get, against GW, looks to me like reaper and PP look to offer better models for a better cost. To each their own though.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Flashman wrote:
For those putting on their rose tinted glasses of nostalgia, there have been plenty of poor sculpts in the past.

I present Exhibit A...

Those Scorps are not the oldest versions of these models.

These are the originals.



The Striking Bunnies are from around 2001 when codex Craftworld Eldar was released. They're not really something someone would put into the "nostalgia era" IMO.

He never said they were the originals. He said there have been plenty of old sculpts in the past, and used them as an example.

Thank you Loki It was indeed just an example and given that they are over 10 years old, I think it qualifies.

Personally I think its pretty hard to make many of the original ideas look less "cartoony" no matter how hard you try.

Sticking a hang glider on the back of a giant flying eagle isn't going to work no matter how you slice it, and birds fly relatively gracefully sure, but certainly not enough for that concept to even work in any form.. I think the core ideas are broken, not really the models.

For example, the DV was almost all awesome, especially the chosen and the cultists, I dont think its all of their models, just a few ideas that I think would be really difficult to sculpt and execute no matter who you are.

I disagree, The older models look add to me. The look like they tried to hard to give them awesome poses. Barahath for example looks hideous.
Many of the older models look that way. Would anyone seriously today consider buying an old raider if it was released today?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I disagree, The older models look add to me. The look like they tried to hard to give them awesome poses.

But many of the newer models have same problems. If you look at Storm of Magic monsters, they are all in very aggressive poses. It gets tiresome real fast. Another example are Slaughterbrute and Helbrute (what's with all the brutes?): when you release something which players are going see by the dozens, don't give them stiff, but aggressive pose! Now Riptide, there's a good model from posing perspective. You can pose it in number of different ways. Or then you can have models like Sphinxes, which aren't as flexible but have sufficiently neutral poses. But things like Slaughterbrute, all which of are stuck in same pose with raised hand, that's no good. Another example are new Crisis Enforcer Commanders. Pose in itself isn't bad, it's dynamic at all, but when you have every damn Enforcer in same 'unique' pose, it just looks silly.

 cincydooley wrote:
For every mountain king and archangel, there's Lelyth Claus

What exactly is wrong with Lylyth3? Looks perfectly fine to me, a little 2D in places; but still a great model.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
GK had goofy PA models (and that stupid thing called dreadknight). Necrons became "tomb kings in space", instead of "terminator meet matrix in 40k" (seriously, why pilots in the machines?).

See, for me, this detail works. Necrons aren't sophisticated cyborgs that integrate themselves into machinery. They're the sad, pathetic remnants of a dead race engaging in the futile mockery of their past lives by pretending they're still alive, adhering to ancient creeds and religions whose significance they can no longer recall. Destroyers are seen as an anomaly because they're the only part of the race that's not held back by nostalgia.

A sensible comment about Necrons in this thread at last. There's nothing wrong with the newer Necrons, and the Codex is also not bad either. Considering Mat Ward wrote it that is. The only models from the Necrons I take issue with are the Tomb Blades.
The Dark Eldar codex was pretty spectacular also, they were fleshed out very well.

 poda_t wrote:

as and aside, I disagree that PP and Reaper don't make good models. Look at the price. Comparing the price against what you get, against GW, looks to me like reaper and PP look to offer better models for a better cost.

Do they? Comparing aforementioned Ravagers with GW Terminators, Ravagers are six models for $55, Terminators are five for $50. Material is same, Ravagers seem bit bigger so you could argue that PP kit offers somewhat more for cost. However, Ravagers are monopose with just three individual sculpts, Terminators are multipose with tons of options. So it doesn't really look like big difference.

Backfire wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I disagree, The older models look add to me. The look like they tried to hard to give them awesome poses.

But many of the newer models have same problems. If you look at Storm of Magic monsters, they are all in very aggressive poses. It gets tiresome real fast. Another example are Slaughterbrute and Helbrute (what's with all the brutes?): when you release something which players are going see by the dozens, don't give them stiff, but aggressive pose! Now Riptide, there's a good model from posing perspective. You can pose it in number of different ways. Or then you can have models like Sphinxes, which aren't as flexible but have sufficiently neutral poses. But things like Slaughterbrute, all which of are stuck in same pose with raised hand, that's no good. Another example are new Crisis Enforcer Commanders. Pose in itself isn't bad, it's dynamic at all, but when you have every damn Enforcer in same 'unique' pose, it just looks silly.

Erm. They're monsters? They're supposed to be angry beasts, they're not going to be just passive looking lol. As for the Helbrute-great model. Loving it. Bear in mind they haven't gotten around to casting a new kit for the Helbrute. Only what they've got in Dark Vengeance. The Slaughterbrute is fantastic also, I'm sure GW is aware people want to tinker and adjust the positions of limbs etc. That's surely what being in the hobby is about isn't it? To unleash your creative potential and whatnot?