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Wait... now I'm confused. What are you guys debating about?

SkavenLord wrote:
Wait... now I'm confused. What are you guys debating about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Although Evil & Chaos is also talking about Mormans and their founder.

Ah, okay. Thank you!

SkavenLord wrote:
Ah, okay. Thank you!

I think most of it is summed up with:

"do you have any proof?"

"do you have any proof there is not?"

"stop shifting the burden of proof - you make the claim so supply the proof"

"you're the one making the claim!"

etc...

And Evil & Chaos has a similarly circular line going on regards Mormans and their founder.

"Here are some things to show that the Morman founder was a convicted fraud"

"I don't believe them! They are fake and made up by some people who tried to kill all Mormans but the bible is all OK!"

"... right..."

Yup, that's pretty accurate.

Secular Humanism. I appreciate the teachings of religion but do not believe in an absolute morality. You just do good things and try to improve yourself. That is all.

I left this thread long ago...
I discovered today it was still going...
Most of the time, I've found religious debates on the internet don't really achieve anything.
I'll just leave you guys to it.

 Gutsnagga wrote:
I left this thread long ago...
I discovered today it was still going...
Most of the time, I've found religious debates on the internet don't really achieve anything.
I'll just leave you guys to it.

Me too.

Merry christams athiests and everyone, let's tolerate the different beliefs in 2014.

Religious and civil liberty for ALL! 1690

Merry atheistmas everyone.

i worship the emperor and the omnissiah (have a shrine and at home) mark my words, the emperor WILL arrive

I'm a Christian, but really my views could be seen as Omnist, I guess. I've only been a Christian for a few months, after being an agnostic who leaned towards belief in a god or gods in one way or another. My views are exclusively mine, and I don't represent anyone else. If I sound assertive at all, it's only because that's what I think it means, not because that's 'how it is'.

The way I see things is like so:

The Christian/Judaic God is either part of a pantheon of other Gods, or is a facet of one God. I mean, there's 7 billion of us, and uncounted trillions of insects, all on one planet alone. I believe in intelligent life on other planets, so Drake's Equation (Is that the one?) theorizes that there are quite a few thousand other inhabitable planets out there, with potentially even larger populations. There is no way that there can only be one god. That's just my view. The Hindu God Brahmin (spelling?), Allah, even Ra, Zeus, Odin and so on, are part of a larger whole or part of a community of immaterial Gods who meddle in material affairs. Sometimes I think that it is hard to believe that these deities would bother to even consider our universe, but at the same token, despite God and all that having a different moral compass and mindset to us (not being human, after all), I know that if I had the ability to 'play God' (oh gawd, the puns ), I certainly would!

Also, the Bible is largely allegorical. Let's not forget that its' component scriptures were written two millennia ago by ancient scholars and philosophers to try and unify a sect that was under brutal Roman oppression, and that these scriptures were then chosen from the many others and collated into the current Bible a thousand years ago-ish by a Church that was at that point the spiritual authority of the civilised western world. What was ethically correct by their standards then is different now, because that's just the way of things. Things change.
Oh, and also: Genesis, to my mind, reads more like a 'song' or exhortation of praise. The first chapter is all fairly poetic about how God creates earth and sows life across it. The second goes on which the barrage of who begat who, which reads as a much more historical bit of record keeping. Therefore, there is room for Genesis and the formation of the universe/Evolution to go hand in hand, as while the latter happened, Genesis praises God's ability to do so, and describes it in a way that an Iron-age man would understand.

With this is mind, homosexual marriage and gender equality is a fine thing, because marriage is a good thing in the Bible, and homosexuality and women's rights are all a part of our modern society, which has evolved in the thousand years or so since the Bible was collated. Homosexual sex out of marriage is still a sin, as is heterosexual sex outside of marriage. But, as a Protestant, I feel that I know that if I pray to God or Jesus, a sin can be atoned for. I can pray and there, I am without sin. I understand that it sounds like a load of hooey; I thought so myself until a few months ago.

Also, personally I veer towards iconoclasm. While I love the idea of community that going to my local Baptist church provides (I'm not a Baptist myself, but it is friendly and local and everyone knows the Reverend there; I live in rural England), I do not appreciate the golden candlesticks, stained glass windows or other decorative accoutrements of the Anglican Church also in town. I respect the Anglican beliefs and why they have them, it just doesn't suit me. To my mind, gold and silver are symbols of wealth, not faith; wood and stone is humble and somehow modest, like a Christian should be (by my interpretation, again).

I don't feel like I am personally responsible for the death of Jesus, or for the Crusades, or for terrible actions committed in the name of God. Bad things are done by bad people (and sometimes good people with the best intentions), and while we all have a measure of sin, we are not all inherently bad. That's a thing I and many Christians also believe: Sins are often different to things that shouldn't ever be done. Jesus can forgive a sin, other things, maybe not so.

Overall, Christianity really changed my life in that it refined my moral code and principles. My life has been governed by a 'gentleman's code' of sorts, as many Victorian or Georgian codes of conduct (not all) have struck me as morally correct, and Christianity has really helped me to curb the excesses of my wants and thoughts, and provided a few new points to add to my list of do's and don't's.

I think that's about it. Ironically, I wrote this while listening to 'Twilight of the Thunder God' by Amon Amarth (for non-metalheads, it's about Thor slaying Jormungandr and other monsters from Viking myth)

I have a horrid feeling that this will be ripped to shreds, but hey ho, that's my fault for plucking up the courage to write ina religion thread!

LooT

Knockagh wrote:

 Gutsnagga wrote:
I left this thread long ago...
I discovered today it was still going...
Most of the time, I've found religious debates on the internet don't really achieve anything.
I'll just leave you guys to it.

Me too.

Merry christams athiests and everyone, let's tolerate the different beliefs in 2014.

Religious and civil liberty for ALL! 1690

Same here.

Oh you Catholic and Christians are such little sinners for loving the blood and violence that is warhammer. Even reading about these false deities is considered wrong by most of your churches..... Some of you even might believe that taking joy in any fiction is wrong, and that you should be burnt for it. Not even talking about the past, if your a Bible christian through and through, then your not even posting here, and if you are its all fire and brimstone.

Sources: In Christian school for six years and read the bible eight times total.
Second source: Reality trumps bull stories made by people who thought water turned to wine by magic.

Please ignore this post (the one I posted).

I'm a christian because Jesus changed my life.

 Lord of Timbraxia wrote:
I'm a Christian, but really my views could be seen as Omnist, I guess. I've only been a Christian for a few months, after being an agnostic who leaned towards belief in a god or gods in one way or another. My views are exclusively mine, and I don't represent anyone else. If I sound assertive at all, it's only because that's what I think it means, not because that's 'how it is'.

The way I see things is like so:

The Christian/Judaic God is either part of a pantheon of other Gods, or is a facet of one God. I mean, there's 7 billion of us, and uncounted trillions of insects, all on one planet alone. I believe in intelligent life on other planets, so Drake's Equation (Is that the one?) theorizes that there are quite a few thousand other inhabitable planets out there, with potentially even larger populations. There is no way that there can only be one god. That's just my view. The Hindu God Brahmin (spelling?), Allah, even Ra, Zeus, Odin and so on, are part of a larger whole or part of a community of immaterial Gods who meddle in material affairs.

You sound like a pantheist, not a Christian.

Lord of Timbraxia wrote:With this is mind, homosexual marriage and gender equality is a fine thing, because marriage is a good thing in the Bible, and homosexuality and women's rights are all a part of our modern society, which has evolved in the thousand years or so since the Bible was collated. Homosexual sex out of marriage is still a sin, as is heterosexual sex outside of marriage.

Why do you feel able to write off some parts of the Bible (stone homosexuals to death, women are property), but agree with other parts of the bible (marriage is good)?
Aren't you just making God what you want it to be, according to your own sense of morality?

Lord of Timbraxia wrote:I have a horrid feeling that this will be ripped to shreds, but hey ho, that's my fault for plucking up the courage to write ina religion thread!

Things that are true, need not fear intellectual inquisition.

fjgraham1 wrote:I'm a christian because Jesus changed my life.

What did Jesus do to change your life?

fjgraham1 wrote:
I'm a christian because Jesus changed my life.

He has one post on dakkadakka, and thats this. Probably another user created this account just to troll.

Someone said they were surprised this was still going. Why? People have talked about religion forever, and they will continue to until it becomes counter-culture.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
Why do you feel able to write off some parts of the Bible (stone homosexuals to death, women are property), but agree with other parts of the bible (marriage is good)?
Aren't you just making God what you want it to be, according to your own sense of morality?

Because the way that we live now is incompatible with several of the Bible's teachings. Stoning anyone to death is a criminal offence in most countries (although it is a punishment in some others, I think), Women, Ethnic Minorities and the LBGT communities have strived for decades to get their equality, and they deserve it now they have won it. Again, the Scriptures that comprise the Bible were written when all three of those groups had little or no say in anything or were deemed immoral and heretical, the same being true when the Bible was collated some thousand years later. With time being a factor, showing that a faith does evolve as the years go on (as do any other organisations or communities), we know that some things just aren't all that good anymore, 'Word of the Lord' or not.

I will be honest, the Bible is open to interpretation. Loosely affiliating as a Protestant, but not part of any Protestant church, it is my right to interpret the Bible as I will. Therefore, yes, a great deal of how I interpret the Bible is up to my moral compass. However, learning what I do from the Bible in that interpretation, my moral compass develops, and develops from other experiences, actions and teachings.

So, in conclusion:
Some parts can be written off because they are not compatible to modern circumstances (and thank God for that, some of those parts give me the shivers)
Personal morality is a big part in some people's sense of religion.

I think what you've either assumed or thought is that all religions and religious sects are codified and organised. Some are (the Catholic Church being a prominent example), many are not. Therefore, the way certain religious sects (or religious individuals, like myself) interpret the texts of their religion can differ to what is the established norm.

 changerofways wrote:

fjgraham1 wrote:
I'm a christian because Jesus changed my life.

He has one post on dakkadakka, and thats this. Probably another user created this account just to troll.

Someone said they were surprised this was still going. Why? People have talked about religion forever, and they will continue to until it becomes counter-culture.

Or maybe he made an account just to share his 2 cents. I know plenty of people who have been influenced in their beliefs by crazy stuff happening in their lives.

I said I discovered it was still going. I wasn't surprised, I just thought at least the arguing would have moved on to another thread. Instead, we now have multiple threads going at once!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PoisonWood wrote:
Oh you Catholic and Christians are such little sinners for loving the blood and violence that is warhammer. Even reading about these false deities is considered wrong by most of your churches..... Some of you even might believe that taking joy in any fiction is wrong, and that you should be burnt for it. Not even talking about the past, if your a Bible christian through and through, then your not even posting here, and if you are its all fire and brimstone.

Sources: In Christian school for six years and read the bible eight times total.
Second source: Reality trumps bull stories made by people who thought water turned to wine by magic.

Please someone tell me this is a troll post?

 Gutsnagga wrote:

 changerofways wrote:

fjgraham1 wrote:
I'm a christian because Jesus changed my life.

He has one post on dakkadakka, and thats this. Probably another user created this account just to troll.

Someone said they were surprised this was still going. Why? People have talked about religion forever, and they will continue to until it becomes counter-culture.

Or maybe he made an account just to share his 2 cents. I know plenty of people who have been influenced in their beliefs by crazy stuff happening in their lives.

I said I discovered it was still going. I wasn't surprised, I just thought at least the arguing would have moved on to another thread. Instead, we now have multiple threads going at once!

Wait... there are? Care to post the link?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PoisonWood wrote:
Oh you Catholic and Christians are such little sinners for loving the blood and violence that is warhammer. Even reading about these false deities is considered wrong by most of your churches..... Some of you even might believe that taking joy in any fiction is wrong, and that you should be burnt for it. Not even talking about the past, if your a Bible christian through and through, then your not even posting here, and if you are its all fire and brimstone.

Sources: In Christian school for six years and read the bible eight times total.
Second source: Reality trumps bull stories made by people who thought water turned to wine by magic.

Please someone tell me this is a troll post?

Yeah, looks like one. Then again, I could be wrong. Poisonwood, I apologize if this seems rude to ask but care to explain?

There's a heated religious debate going on in the off-topic forum.

Me personally? Christian, although I try to be all-inclusive. I think that all the religions that claim descent from Abraham (all flavors of Christian, plus all branches of Judaism and all permutations of Islam) are essentially the same. (We worship the same deity, we just disagree on the details.)

I believe that the divine is a force beyond our ability to understand, and that most (if not all) world religions have something to contribute to our understanding of it. I do not believe that God is concerned with what we call him, nor do I think the details of our religious rituals are nearly as important as how we go about taking care of ourselves, each other, and taking stewardship of the Earth.

I also believe that spirituality is one of the six cornerstones of health. (Physical, social, mental, emotional, sexual, and spiritual.) While I support anyone's religious orientation, I feel that people who deny the spiritual in any form, or deny the innate human need for spiritual fulfillment of some kind, are neglecting their health as surely as people who insist that they do not need to take care of any one of the other aspects.

I said that I respect anyone's religious affiliation, although I feel the need to make a caveat to that. There is a point where it becomes easy for a (socially, spiritually, and mentally healthy) person to spot a religion that has become a cult. An organization that exists not to guide its parishioners spiritually, but instead exists solely to exploit them for either financial or temporal gain, cunningly disguised as a religion, is a cult. This sort of organization is one of the most despicable sorts of group I can think of. While I respect people who follow the beliefs of one of those religions by choice, I cannot support anyone who supports the organized version of said religion. (Scientology is a prime example. While I applaud and support the members of the Free Zone, I cannot condone support for the Church of Scientology itself.) People who use religious belief to prey upon those in need of spiritual guidance (such as faith healers, mediums, and cult leaders) are among the most abhorrent groups of people imaginable.

Religion should be free. Health should always be free.

That's just my two cents, of course.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570802.page

I have a feeling I'm gonna regret joining in on this one.

Edit: Ninja'd

 Jimsolo wrote:
I also believe that spirituality is one of the six cornerstones of health. (Physical, social, mental, emotional, sexual, and spiritual.) While I support anyone's religious orientation, I feel that people who deny the spiritual in any form, or deny the innate human need for spiritual fulfillment of some kind, are neglecting their health as surely as people who insist that they do not need to take care of any one of the other aspects.

Spitituality, I would suggest, is not an innate human need. I would say it comes under the overview of social and emotional needs - the need for a community around them and a desire for social and emotional reassurance that they have value and meaning.

I have never been a member of a church or religious organisation (my schools were mainly CoE which is pretty much limited to hymns/prayer in assembly which I stopped singing at about the age of 8-9 and sopped praying at about 7, church 2-3 times a year and RE lessons which I dropped when I was about 13) and have not ever really felt the need for spiritual identity and I feel that the social and emotional needs I have are adequately filled by other means than having a religious lifestyle.

One of my uncles family and my nan are very active in their church (I think CoE) and do all sorts of things with their church - they give and take a great deal from their religious community. I don't agree that there is a god, but I do very much respect them for the work they do, and respect the community they are a part of - that is something far more important than what book you read from, or which direction you pray in and fills far more of a persons innate need, with what they read and which way they pray simply enabling that fulfilment.

 Gutsnagga wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570802.page

I have a feeling I'm gonna regret joining in on this one.

Edit: Ninja'd

Yup, I think you will, I know I would
I'll stay out of that one, as there are a lot of terms I don't understand, a few mindsets I don't quite get, and again and again the idea that Science disproves God. I think both are relevant, and as one of the forum posters put it, if he were a religious person he'd see evolution as God's 'autopilot' function for the world/galaxy/universe/multiverse etc etc, because otherwise it'd be millennia after millennia of 'babysitting', which isn't conducive to running everything in the background as He tends to do

 Lord of Timbraxia wrote:

Evil & Chaos wrote:
Why do you feel able to write off some parts of the Bible (stone homosexuals to death, women are property), but agree with other parts of the bible (marriage is good)?
Aren't you just making God what you want it to be, according to your own sense of morality?

Because the way that we live now is incompatible with several of the Bible's teachings. Stoning anyone to death is a criminal offence in most countries (although it is a punishment in some others, I think), Women, Ethnic Minorities and the LBGT communities have strived for decades to get their equality, and they deserve it now they have won it.

So you think the Bible actively insists its readers conduct evil acts, but still think the Bible is a good book?

Seems silly to me.

some things just aren't all that good anymore, 'Word of the Lord' or not.

So, when the Bible says "God told Moses to stone homosexuals to death", the Bible is lying and that didn't really happen?
Or was God cool with killing gays then, but likes gays now?

I think what you've either assumed or thought is that all religions and religious sects are codified and organised. Some are (the Catholic Church being a prominent example), many are not. Therefore, the way certain religious sects (or religious individuals, like myself) interpret the texts of their religion can differ to what is the established norm.

I understand interpretation. But this isn't interpretation, it's willful blindness to unambiguous exhortations to do evil things.
Do you consider the Bible to be a good book?

Evil & Chaos wrote:

So, when the Bible says "God told Moses to stone homosexuals to death", the Bible is lying and that didn't really happen?
Or was God cool with killing gays then, but likes gays now?

this, but, essentially:
if any Deity is real, the only possible reality is that.. ... .he? she? they? is/are schizophrenic.

Surprised that there are only 2 Hindus that have voted in the poll.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
Merry atheistmas everyone.

Isn't it generally thought that Christians co-opted older pagan festivities for Christmas? If so, suppose there is no reason for atheists not to jump in as well!

Polytheistic Christian

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Polytheistic Christian

I'm sorry but isn't this a bit of an oxymoron?

 Grimskul wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Polytheistic Christian

I'm sorry but isn't this a bit of an oxymoron?

yes and no. If there's an admission that mary, joseph, and all the other patron saints christians pray to--you know, in contradiction to what's taught in the bible--then, it's honestly. If it's belief in any other beings outside of what's permissible under the umbra of christianity, then.... yes. Complete oxymoron, or, not actually a christian.