Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Isn't it generally thought that Christians co-opted older pagan festivities for Christmas? If so, suppose there is no reason for atheists not to jump in as well!
The Roman Saturnalia was celebrated on Dec 25th, involved gift-giving, and parties that involved public singing.
The Romans, of course, made Christianity their state religion in AD313, but they kept some old festivals such as the Saturnalia, under new names.
It's arguable that some early parts of the Bible were originally written in polytheistic form, and were later edited to remove most references to other Gods; God talks in reference to himself as "us" and "we" a lot early in the Bible, but that gradually fades away as we come to the later-written books.
We know from archeology that the early Hebrews were probably polytheists.
Isn't it generally thought that Christians co-opted older pagan festivities for Christmas? If so, suppose there is no reason for atheists not to jump in as well!
The Roman Saturnalia was celebrated on Dec 25th, involved gift-giving, and parties that involved public singing.
The Romans, of course, made Christianity their state religion in AD313, but they kept some old festivals such as the Saturnalia, under new names.
It's arguable that some early parts of the Bible were originally written in polytheistic form, and were later edited to remove most references to other Gods; God talks in reference to himself as "us" and "we" a lot early in the Bible, but that gradually fades away as we come to the later-written books.
We know from archeology that the early Hebrews were probably polytheists.
The whole "we" and "us" are likely a reference to the Trinity given that the Christian god is a Tri-un god after all. It does solidify or at least demonstrate the continuity of it even in the Old Testament and how it wasn't just tacked on later by Christians in the New Testament with God's true nature being revealed with the arrival of Jesus.
[quote=Evil & Chaos 524739 6394521 null
So you think the Bible actively insists its readers conduct evil acts, but still think the Bible is a good book?
Do you consider the Bible to be a good book?
What with it being a book written by men, I do not think that it is a 'good' book. If anything, it takes bloody ages to read and can be darn irritating to understand Like I say, the Bible was compiled by men. Those stories, particularly in the Old Testament, where God says 'go and kill this bunch of people' or 'go and stone this bunch of people to death' etc etc, I find to be 'Biblicised' accounts of actual events or fictitious events, either way used as the 'moral guidebook' for the Ancient and Early Medieval Christian, who were of course different to the Information-Age Christian of today, what with the LGBT community, Civil Rights, Gender equality and so forth.
I'll be honest, religion is difficult at times. I've only recently come to the realisation that you don't have to be a 'new guy' to faith to find it being tested daily, either by something that happens or by something read in your Holy Text Of Choice that makes you think 'God damn, how could they write this stuff?'.
Many and varied forces in progress according to waxing & waning whims.
Isn't it generally thought that Christians co-opted older pagan festivities for Christmas? If so, suppose there is no reason for atheists not to jump in as well!
The Roman Saturnalia was celebrated on Dec 25th, involved gift-giving, and parties that involved public singing.
The Romans, of course, made Christianity their state religion in AD313, but they kept some old festivals such as the Saturnalia, under new names.
It's arguable that some early parts of the Bible were originally written in polytheistic form, and were later edited to remove most references to other Gods; God talks in reference to himself as "us" and "we" a lot early in the Bible, but that gradually fades away as we come to the later-written books.
We know from archeology that the early Hebrews were probably polytheists.
Not only that but the Bible in the old testament mentions other gods as entities. Plus I don't believe in the Trinity that God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are one in the same. I believe in God, and Jesus who was born unto Mary a virgin, died for my sins, and was risen on the third day. The Holy Spirit, I'm on the fence about, as I think it's more the 'feel' and 'pull' of God on the spirit, rather then a separate entity. Plus the Bible has be edited, rewritten, books taken in and out of it, etc. It's a guideline. I believe that other deities can and do exist, and are viable pathways to an afterlife.
Anyways the core Christian concept of Jesus dying for my sins, and my belief in him will lead me to heaven is what makes me a Christian. The fact I believe other gods exist, can and do answer prayers, that there are alternative afterlives, and the lack of a Trinity, makes me Polytheistic.
My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba Order of Saint Pan Thera
It also makes you not a christian. When it comes to a monotheistic religion, you cannot sit on two sides of the fence.
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
Evil & Chaos wrote: We know from archeology that the early Hebrews were probably polytheists.
The whole "we" and "us" are likely a reference to the Trinity given that the Christian god is a Tri-un god after all. It does solidify or at least demonstrate the continuity of it even in the Old Testament and how it wasn't just tacked on later by Christians in the New Testament with God's true nature being revealed with the arrival of Jesus.
Or the early Hebrews were actually polytheists who over time stole a bunch of myths from other tribes around them (including monotheism), which as I said we actually know from archeology rather than conjecture that presupposes the existence of God.
poda_t wrote: It also makes you not a christian. When it comes to a monotheistic religion, you cannot sit on two sides of the fence.
Expect there is no fence. The only defining need to be a Christian is to believe in Jesus, and that Jesus died for all sins, and believe in him gets you to heaven. That's it. Christianity is also not wholly monotheistic. Especially if you believe that Jesus is separate from God.
My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba Order of Saint Pan Thera
Born into a "christian" family... yeah thats just what the census says about us. Took issue early on with some of the more radical sides to do with my self expression and found on the whole i have less of a problem with a belief system with multiple gods (less hypocrisy in the stories), I believe in the norse branch of paganism and i like how most of the gods are just personifications of natural events!
but in all honesty ones beliefs to me should be free to change as you grow and learn.
gue'la aux commander reporting for the greater good shas'o
If I didn't believe in God or an afterlife I really wouldn't be wasting my time writing on a blog on the Internet. If I really believed that this was it, 70 or 80 years and then nothing and i had spent it fighting people who believed that something came next. Why would I care! I dont get militant atheists, I can get someone who does not believe and so chases hedonistic pleasure and abandons imposed morals. But fighting on the Internet and playing war-games, really if this is it. Man what a waste. I can waste my time and enjoy it because I know .......I'm gonna live for ever.
poda_t wrote: It also makes you not a christian. When it comes to a monotheistic religion, you cannot sit on two sides of the fence.
Expect there is no fence. The only defining need to be a Christian is to believe in Jesus, and that Jesus died for all sins, and believe in him gets you to heaven. That's it. Christianity is also not wholly monotheistic. Especially if you believe that Jesus is separate from God.
Your stance is analagous to saying you're a skeptic and believe in magic. The two positions oppose each other.
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
Uh...no, that's a pretty narrow manner of thinking. First you can be a skeptic on something specific, and believe in the 'broad' sense of term. You can be a skeptic of 'ancient aliens' but believe fully that aliens exist and have visited the Earth, for example.
My belief seems to offend you and I'm sorry, but it's what I've prayed on and came to believe.
My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba Order of Saint Pan Thera
Knockagh wrote: If I didn't believe in God or an afterlife I really wouldn't be wasting my time writing on a blog on the Internet. If I really believed that this was it, 70 or 80 years and then nothing and i had spent it fighting people who believed that something came next. Why would I care!
Let's say you believe in Philosophy A.
You live in a country that is officially Philosophy B.
Your taxes, go to support and promote Philosophy B.
People who follow Philosophy B automatically get respect and deference from most people in society, whilst people who follow Philosophy A get looked upon as untrustworthy, amoral, even evil.
I can get someone who does not believe and so chases hedonistic pleasure and abandons imposed morals.
Atheists don't generally go around being hedonistic, ignoring morality, etc.
That's because morality is innate in human beings, not imposed by an external source such as a God or Gods.
But fighting on the Internet and playing war-games, really if this is it. Man what a waste. I can waste my time and enjoy it because I know .......I'm gonna live for ever.
You think you're going to live forever. You don't know that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingmanHighborn wrote: My belief seems to offend you and I'm sorry, but it's what I've prayed on and came to believe.
Why do you believe what you believe?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/06 10:43:53
I can get someone who does not believe and so chases hedonistic pleasure and abandons imposed morals.
Atheists don't generally go around being hedonistic, ignoring morality, etc.
That's because morality is innate in human beings, not imposed by an external source such as a God or Gods.
Ha ha, Morality is innate ehh? Why would that be ' I have written my laws upon their hearts.' maybe thats why I know you don't beileve yourself because you know God, you just have wrapped yourself up in knots denying it which is weird.
I know I will live forever because I met God and he told me. So its not supposition it's fact.
And no I don't understand wasting my time arguing over a position that I believe to be irrelevant. As of course all life would be ime irrelevant in your world, murder becomes a man made notion as does any so called crime. If you really believed what you are saying your life would be truly and radically different.
Yep, experiments have shown that even infants will show a preference toward someone who acts kindly to another person, and an aversion towards someone who acts selfishly. Long before they learn about Jesus, or Mohammad, or whomever.
Do you think that the Hebrews would have reached Mount Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments, if they were under the impression that Murder and Perjury weren't injurious to society? How condescending an attitude.
Likewise, animals have shown behaviours that we would understand as social morality in action, both in the wild and under experimental conditions.
Why would that be ' I have written my laws upon their hearts.' maybe thats why I know you don't beileve yourself because you know God, you just have wrapped yourself up in knots denying it which is weird.
I don't "know" God. Or Gods. Never met any of them.
I know I will live forever because I met God and he told me.
You met God?
What does he look like?
What does he smell like?
So its not supposition it's fact.
Mmmmmm.
And no I don't understand wasting my time arguing over a position that I believe to be irrelevant. As of course all life would be ime irrelevant in your world, murder becomes a man made notion as does any so called crime. If you really believed what you are saying your life would be truly and radically different.
Yep, murder is definitely a man-made concept.
That doesn't mean that I think murder is great, though, as you seem to be insinuating.
I think murder is pretty darned horrible, worse than you do most likely, because I don't think the murder'ee will go on to live forever in Heaven after she gets brutally stabbed to death. I think she'll die in messy fear and pain, and then her consciousness will cease to exist, forever.
In your view of the universe, the murder'ee (assuming she's a fan of your favourite God - which one is that by the way? One of the Jesuses?) goes on to Heaven and lives in paradise eternally. "False consolation" springs to mind.
Troike wrote: Was it Morgan Freeman? It was Morgan Freeman, wasn't it?
No. When you are dead, you will find out.
You will wake up in an empty room except for a desk (with a metronome on it )
Then, you will look up.
There will be a man sitting behind the desk
You will stare at him for some time,
before you realise with a shock who God really is:
Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.
And you will scream in despair when you realise that everything you have ever believed in was all a lie
and that Putin has been fooling the world all along.
Spoiler:
Search your feelings.
You know it to be true...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/08 15:47:03
Troike wrote: Was it Morgan Freeman? It was Morgan Freeman, wasn't it?
No. When you are dead, you will find out.
You will wake up in an empty room except for a desk (with a metronome on it )
Then, you will look up.
There will be a man sitting behind the desk
You will stare at him for some time,
before you realise with a shock who God really is:
Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.
And you will scream in despair when you realise that everything you have ever believed in was all a lie
and that Putin has been fooling the world all along.
Spoiler:
Search your feelings.
You know it to be true...
People will sure be Putin there place, that's for sure
I wasn't indoctrinated into any religion at a young age, although protestant Christianity is somewhat present in my community and my dad's side of the family is Catholic, so I claimed to be a Catholic.
Around the age of 12 I lost a lot of sleep thinking about the possibility of being tortured for eternity for masturbating, so decided being more religious might help, my only dilemma was determining which religion was the one true religion, so I decided to do some research on religion in general and that eventually made me an agnostic atheist. I am now much more at ease with life not believing I was created solely for the purpose of being given an unfair test and then tortured.
I don't fear death as much either, and I figure it'll be exactly the same as it was before I was born and I never lost sleep over that.
I'm agnostic because I believe there has to be something greater than just chance for us being here, and I believe that since we're not even close to knowing what that is, why should we follow anyone who says they do(especially when they've been proved wrong so many times before)...
rockyreeves22 wrote: Jehovas Witness... the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
And the greatest trick religion has ever pulled is getting people to believe there is a god...
Though I don't quite understand the position of some religons (and here I am generally talking about various brands of Christianity) on evil and the devil. The whole Satan Paradox pretty much sums up for me why religion doesn't supply any answers.
rockyreeves22 wrote: Jehovas Witness... the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
And the greatest trick religion has ever pulled is getting people to believe there is a god...
Though I don't quite understand the position of some religons (and here I am generally talking about various brands of Christianity) on evil and the devil. The whole Satan Paradox pretty much sums up for me why religion doesn't supply any answers.
And the greatest trick Satan has ever pulled is inventing atheism. One could continue a long time with this kind of nonsensical statements.
And why is this 'Satan paradox' a problem to you? The problem of evil has been dealt with many times by theologians since ancient times, and there exist a myriad explanations for it. I don't see how it could be a problem.
In my personal opinion, discussions about religion are so extremely complicated that they are best left to those who are more knowledgable about the subject, like theologians and philosophers. If there exists such an thing as an omniscient, omnipotent being, how are we, with our feeble mortal minds ever going to understand it? Better to simply become an agnostic
An agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist? Agnosticism cannot replace atheism or theism in a person's belief system as it's a position on a matter other than belief.
the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Trite nonsense trotted out by the actual tricksters.
“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.”
An agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist? Agnosticism cannot replace atheism or theism in a person's belief system as it's a position on a matter other than belief.
Whatever you want of course. I myself am a agnostic theist, but agnosticism of any kind is good.
Iron_Captain wrote: One could continue a long time with this kind of nonsensical statements.
That was kind of the point I was making...
And why is this 'Satan paradox' a problem to you? The problem of evil has been dealt with many times by theologians since ancient times, and there exist a myriad explanations for it. I don't see how it could be a problem.
Well, the myriad explanations, none of which are rooted in reality for one?
In my personal opinion, discussions about religion are so extremely complicated that they are best left to those who are more knowledgable about the subject, like theologians and philosophers.
So, you don't care for anyone to discuss anything unless they are an expert in the subject?
If there exists such an thing as an omniscient, omnipotent being, how are we, with our feeble mortal minds ever going to understand it? Better to simply become an agnostic
If there exists such a being, there should exist a shread of evidence for it, or indeed the need for there to be one, do you not think?
Show me such and I will be "agnostic" too
For the moment "gods" exists far beyond reasonable doubt in the land of mystical rainbow unicorns.
Children of Stirba 
Order of Saint Pan Thera 
)
>7000
1500
2500
2000 
Sekhmet - Dynasty 4000pts 
Deathguard - 1500pts 
Daemons of Nurgle - 1000pts 
“Mildly dislike the witch”