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 Grey Templar wrote:
Well if you don't sell over state lines the federal government can't use that lovely interstate commerce clause to get you at the very least.

If anything used in the manufacturing process crossed state lines the feds will use that clause to jump in and prosecute. Not saying that is the way it should be, but it is what will happen unless they have some other Fed charge to levy against their target.

It always amuses me that as soon as something that could potentially harm them people clamor for more government regulation. Then they complain that there's too much government regulation and that we are too safety minded.

You can sharpen a butter knife to kill, you can choke someone with a charging cable, you could run someone over with a golf cart and you can poison someone with bleach. We live in a deadly world, mentlegen, and the sooner we get over the fact that there are people who want to kill us and get on with our lives the better.

, you could run someone over with a golf cart

or in my mom's case you could run over the same person, twice in one afternoon...

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I swear I explained this briefly earlier. It is legal in the United States for you to manufacture firearms for your own personal use, these 3D printer guns included, passing muster with the undetectable fireams act and the NFA are all that are required. This is for sure, tested and certified, ATF approved Federal law. However the SECOND you do something that resembles being in business, for example selling a weapon, you need to have a manufacturing permit or face the legal dropkick of the ATF. They /love/ cases like that. They usually even get to play mall ninja, dress up in masks and kick you door in!

So these pistols do have to follow some other NFA regulations, for example we know the barrels, no matter how gakky they are, are rifled, if they were smooth bores they'd be classified as an SBS (Short Barreled Shotgun)*

Now it is a federal felony to provide weapons to people who cannot legally posses firearms, I believe this includes the means to acquire firearms as well, so lending your 3D printer to a felon, who prints a gun and goes and robs a 7-11 for it, would most likely result in you being put up on charges if DOJ actually started prosecuting crimes like that again.

*Black powder smooth bore muskets are an exemption to this classification, and most firearms laws in the United States, you can even have them mailed to your door!

As to the Interstate Commerce Stuff that's going to court at some point, four or five states have "Weapons made and sold in state aren't the feds bidness" laws, (AZ, Montana, Wyoming, and Kansas off the top of my head) but those laws haven't been court tested yet.

Thank you very much for the clarification

skyfi wrote:
thanks kalish.

lets say you rent your 3d printer unknowingly to a felon, or person unauthorized to receive a firearm or means to acquire?

Ignorance of the law is no protection of it, so I'd say you're boned... but if a previously non-criminal rented the machine, printed a gun, and made himself a criminal with the gun he now produced....What legal position is the owner of the 3d printer who rented it to him in? You didn't give a gun, or means to a gun, to a criminal. You had no prior knowledge of his plan of action etc? You gave means to a gun or access to a non-criminal at the time?

My advice - consult a qualified attorney in your State. It seems like you're looking for hard and fast legal advice on ever changing scenarios, and there are few people qualified to give that on this site.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
or in my mom's case you could run over the same person, twice in one afternoon...

Deliberate or accidental?

skyfi wrote:
thanks kalish.

lets say you rent your 3d printer unknowingly to a felon, or person unauthorized to receive a firearm or means to acquire?




Ignorance of the law is no protection of it, so I'd say you're boned... but if a previously non-criminal rented the machine, printed a gun, and made himself a criminal with the gun he now produced....What legal position is the owner of the 3d printer who rented it to him in? You didn't give a gun, or means to a gun, to a criminal. You had no prior knowledge of his plan of action etc? You gave means to a gun or access to a non-criminal at the time?

My advice - consult a qualified attorney in your State. It seems like you're looking for hard and fast legal advice on ever changing scenarios, and there are few people qualified to give that on this site.

edit: above quotation from Dreadclaw. I just fail @ dakka (jeez i really edit that into wrong place? smdh)

Naw not looking for hard and fast legal advice, more or less spit-balling/speculating for the sake of entertainment. Not that I don't think this is an important issue, I do.

If I ever intended to rent out my 3d printer I would first inquire with a local attorney (and probably put him on retainer for all of the ensuing lawsuits, lol) which I don't. I have to admit I find the conversation very entertaining

Fair enough. From past experience I've usually found that anyone who asks that many questions about a dubious enterprise is strongly contemplating it/has done it already and wants a way to cover their rear.

 Frazzled wrote:
or in my mom's case you could run over the same person, twice in one afternoon...

Deliberate or accidental?

Per Mom: accident tee hee!
Per Dad: intentional crazy red head. (guess who she ran over)

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Fair enough. From past experience I've usually found that anyone who asks that many questions about a dubious enterprise is strongly contemplating it/has done it already and wants a way to cover their rear.

How is firearms production a dubious enterprise?

I know I laid out a worst-case scenario for my example and it was done for theoretical purposes. I don't typically lend out expensive equipment of mine, and consequently don't think I would lend my 3d printer out based on all the hubb-bub about this.

If an individual did let them borrow their 3d printer, this "borrower (or renter)" did something stupid with it, I was curious about what y'all speculate the ramifications for the unwitting 3d printer owner would be? (or how messy it would play out legally)

 blood reaper wrote:
No good can come from this.

I don't know. Perhaps a bunch of gung ho idiots will print up shoddy guns that blow up and kill themselves. Then there will be a glut of cheap "used only once" 3D printers on eBay.

Back on topic, the file for the gun would not need a serial number because it is not a gun. It would be the job of the person printing it to add a serial number, if required.

If the originator of the file wanted to prevent people from copying it he could add a serial number to each one, but I get the impression he is a super libertarian who wants cheap guns for all, and will give away the file.

 Frazzled wrote:

Per Mom: accident tee hee!
Per Dad: intentional crazy red head. (guess who she ran over)

Gotta watch out for those red heads, fierce temper

skyfi wrote:
How is firearms production a dubious enterprise?

I know I laid out a worst-case scenario for my example and it was done for theoretical purposes. I don't typically lend out expensive equipment of mine, and consequently don't think I would lend my 3d printer out based on all the hubb-bub about this.

If an individual did let them borrow their 3d printer, this "borrower (or renter)" did something stupid with it, I was curious about what y'all speculate the ramifications for the unwitting 3d printer owner would be? (or how messy it would play out legally)

Its not, nor did I claim it was. Constantly asking what would happen if you were to allow felons and/or criminals to use a 3D printer to manufacture a firearm, and what possible legal defenses you may have available, may look dubious to an outside observer. Especially when the scenarios get more specific.

skyfi wrote:instead of worrying so much about what someone MAY POSSIBLY ONE DAY THINK ABOUT POSSIBLY COMMENCING TO TAKE ACTION ABOUT...

So then do you think it's foolish to oppose universal background checks or a federal gun registry on the grounds that the government may possibly one day think about possibly commencing to take action about taking the guns away?



@Dreadclaw69: this is how you use someone's own argument against them.


EDIT: I've said my piece; I don't think there's much need for me to re-iterate my opinion. I'll keep reading though, because who knows, maybe someone will say something amazing that changes my perspective.

Considering that you can make one shot guns after visiting a
hardware store I wouldn't consider this very news worthy.
With some skill you can recreate Sten rifles et al.
Hell, if you have a dremel you can make a 9mm automatic pistol.

 Blaggard wrote:
Considering that you can make one shot guns after visiting a
hardware store I wouldn't consider this very news worthy.
With some skill you can recreate Sten rifles et al.
Hell, if you have a dremel you can make a 9mm automatic pistol.

exactly what I have been saying all along,


all this chicken little the sky is falling because "now" guns are easy to make is just that, chicken little.

If you are going to ban 3d printers for making cheap, user-dangerous, and ineffective guns, then why is no one crying about metal lathes and CNC machines being on the free market?


the only good reason for banning (civilian) 3d printing is that we cant let the people have a cheap means of producing cheap plastic crap, that would destroy the world economy of making cheap plastic crap.

@Skyfi I would say you get a legal notarized document drawn up with every person who rents your printer saying that agree not to print firearms, engage in illegal activity etc. It won't stop them but it will at least potentially cover your donkey. Over all this is really something that needs to be addressed by a lawyer.

If an individual did let them borrow their 3d printer, this "borrower (or renter)" did something stupid with it, I was curious about what y'all speculate the ramifications for the unwitting 3d printer owner would be? (or how messy it would play out legally)

Scratch all that I wrote here. Above advice is better: Get a real lawyer.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
@Skyfi I would say you get a legal notarized document drawn up with every person who rents your computer saying that agree not to download kiddie porn or hack into bank accounts, engage in illegal activity etc. It won't stop them but it will at least potentially cover your donkey. Over all this is really something that needs to be addressed by a lawyer.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
@Skyfi I would say you get a legal notarized document drawn up with every person who rents your chainsaw saying that agree not to cut down their neighbors trees, decapitate people, engage in illegal activity etc. It won't stop them but it will at least potentially cover your donkey. Over all this is really something that needs to be addressed by a lawyer.

Pretty much anything you rent probably needs a ton of notarized legal disclaimers with this standard. Lawyers will love it. First thing I'm doing with my 3d printer is making a notary stamp so I can get in on that part of the action.

easysauce wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:
Considering that you can make one shot guns after visiting a
hardware store I wouldn't consider this very news worthy.
With some skill you can recreate Sten rifles et al.
Hell, if you have a dremel you can make a 9mm automatic pistol.

exactly what I have been saying all along,


all this chicken little the sky is falling because "now" guns are easy to make is just that, chicken little.

If you are going to ban 3d printers for making cheap, user-dangerous, and ineffective guns, then why is no one crying about metal lathes and CNC machines being on the free market?


the only good reason for banning (civilian) 3d printing is that we cant let the people have a cheap means of producing cheap plastic crap, that would destroy the world economy of making cheap plastic crap.

Happy Meal Toys for all!
CNCs are beautiful.

And now back on thread: Didn't whole revolutions and the evolution of warfare with firearms come just because firearms are easy to produce and easy to use? Suddenly things people could do in the 14th century are hard?
Hell, a yew longbow is harder to make but has higher precision, fire rate, range and probably killing power. People can still go online, order the wood and have a go. There's even tutorials on youtube. Heck, there's tutorials for PVC horsebows on youtube. No cries of outrage there.
However I forget one thing, printing pre-designed pieces require no skill. Maybe people without skill are more scary than people with skills?

Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Per Mom: accident tee hee!
Per Dad: intentional crazy red head. (guess who she ran over)

Gotta watch out for those red heads, fierce temper

skyfi wrote:
How is firearms production a dubious enterprise?

I know I laid out a worst-case scenario for my example and it was done for theoretical purposes. I don't typically lend out expensive equipment of mine, and consequently don't think I would lend my 3d printer out based on all the hubb-bub about this.

If an individual did let them borrow their 3d printer, this "borrower (or renter)" did something stupid with it, I was curious about what y'all speculate the ramifications for the unwitting 3d printer owner would be? (or how messy it would play out legally)

Its not, nor did I claim it was. Constantly asking what would happen if you were to allow felons and/or criminals to use a 3D printer to manufacture a firearm, and what possible legal defenses you may have available, may look dubious to an outside observer. Especially when the scenarios get more specific.

I must of mistaken your words here then:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Fair enough. From past experience I've usually found that anyone who asks that many questions about a dubious enterprise is strongly contemplating it/has done it already and wants a way to cover their rear.

I'm not "constantly" asking. I think its a valid topic of discussion regarding 3d printers/3d printing guns specifically and legal ramifications... It's really not the only thing I've contributed to the dialogue, but I do feel like you are trying to paint my honest inquiry in matters of law (which im no expert and hence deferring to the smarter-than-me-fellas at dakka for the purpose of our OT discussion).... Which I truly don't understand?

I just don't see how an interest in the subject of this thread (and it's legal ramifications for producers/consumers and how it will all work out) is an indication of dubious activity unless one wildly speculates...

Could you just not reckon, like I've stated that I own a 3d printer, and was curious of the opinions of others on a hypothetical situation? That maybe I don't want to risk letting someone borrow my printer to build themselves a computer case, or widget or whatever in the off chance they have lied to me and use it for nefarious purposes? I would like to be equipped with the knowledge to protect myself, my capital, and a means of explaining why I won't lend my machine out in the event I'm asked about it and don't want to come off simply like "because it's mine." etc

I however have pointed out that there seems to be a potential for owners of printers to lend/rent them out to people who could then produce a firearm with no serial # for themselves... withstanding they didn't rent it to individuals whom wouldn't qualify to receive a firearm/access to one in the first place.... I didn't say it was the way the truth an the light, or even a good idea. I just said it was a possibility that everyone will have to seemingly deal with, especially people who own a 3d printer. what safeguards could be implemented where you could viably make a biz of renting your printer out while at the same time ensuring you are not arming felons or would be terrorists? There seems to be a place in the market legally for this, currently, although not economically feasible I would argue unless one had a ton of local customers. Again not that i'm saying its a good idea, but I'm trying to figure out what prevents someone from doing this? I'm not so dumb I'm going to risk my biscuit on this sort of thing, but I'm REALLY interested to see what comes of it being a bit of a gun nut, and owning a 3d printer. Just seems logical I would find it interesting!

It got me thinking about what others have said regarding CNC etc... you can easily make metal guns very easily with good machinery like that. So what do people who own CNC machines do? Are they liable for every dumb who rents a machine from them (never heard of someone renting out an entire CNC machine except to a biz) and produces a gun and does something stupid? I doubt it. I doubt unless it was proven that they were privy to the plans of the people who rented the machinery... That same line of thinking, if you own a CNC shop. What if a customer of yours pulled a fast one on you and had you build him some random gizmos over a period of time that you didn't know assembled into a full auto tommy gun, but did? Would the CNC shop owner be at risk? or would the customer have sole liability if something happened as he lied/mis-represented plans to CNC owner who unwittingly built gun?

Could we extend the same logic to walmart, they sold a guy a broom, a nail, and a rubberband, should liability be extended to them if he combines those objects and a shotgun shell and kills someone?

I'm just really curious about how all that interacts and what not!

azazel the cat wrote:

skyfi wrote:instead of worrying so much about what someone MAY POSSIBLY ONE DAY THINK ABOUT POSSIBLY COMMENCING TO TAKE ACTION ABOUT...

So then do you think it's foolish to oppose universal background checks or a federal gun registry on the grounds that the government may possibly one day think about possibly commencing to take action about taking the guns away?



@Dreadclaw69: this is how you use someone's own argument against them.


EDIT: I've said my piece; I don't think there's much need for me to re-iterate my opinion. I'll keep reading though, because who knows, maybe someone will say something amazing that changes my perspective.

Oh come on azaz. I understand why people would want to possibly make another law regarding 3d printers and guns, but I don't agree with it, and have stated why, with how easy it is to build superior weapons already. Just like you have stated your opinion. I also would argue that the federal government (or state for that matter) making lists is can be a bad thing.. Off top of my head last thing I can think of would be medical marijuana patients/users in those states, having applied for a state license, found out they could no longer legally receive/purchase a firearm. Talk about paving a road to hell with good intentions..

I admit though, I wasn't being so serious in regards to what you quoted, but I think you know that already





Automatically Appended Next Post:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:@Skyfi I would say you get a legal notarized document drawn up with every person who rents your printer saying that agree not to print firearms, engage in illegal activity etc. It won't stop them but it will at least potentially cover your donkey. Over all this is really something that needs to be addressed by a lawyer.

agreed, but was curious about the opinions of other dakkanaughts whom I have grown to respect. (not even as if I was planning on doin this as I've stated but you know, wildly speculating/entertaining ideas is all good fun)

SOFDC wrote:

If an individual did let them borrow their 3d printer, this "borrower (or renter)" did something stupid with it, I was curious about what y'all speculate the ramifications for the unwitting 3d printer owner would be? (or how messy it would play out legally)

Scratch all that I wrote here. Above advice is better: Get a real lawyer.

^ sound advice to anyone planning on renting out their 3d printer now that 3d guns are "out"

CptJake wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
@Skyfi I would say you get a legal notarized document drawn up with every person who rents your computer saying that agree not to download kiddie porn or hack into bank accounts, engage in illegal activity etc. It won't stop them but it will at least potentially cover your donkey. Over all this is really something that needs to be addressed by a lawyer.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
@Skyfi I would say you get a legal notarized document drawn up with every person who rents your chainsaw saying that agree not to cut down their neighbors trees, decapitate people, engage in illegal activity etc. It won't stop them but it will at least potentially cover your donkey. Over all this is really something that needs to be addressed by a lawyer.

Pretty much anything you rent probably needs a ton of notarized legal disclaimers with this standard. Lawyers will love it. First thing I'm doing with my 3d printer is making a notary stamp so I can get in on that part of the action.

I haven't looked into standard lend/lease legal disclaimers enough to be familiar. I assumed that there existed something like this a 3d printer owner could employ / have signed like kalsih recommended , to protect the owner of said machine from damages caused by someones misuses... It seems legally about the same as if you rented a car to someone and they purposefully ran someone over with it right? You rented them the car to drive, not to commit murder ?


crazy times!!

skyfi wrote:
I'm not "constantly" asking. I think its a valid topic of discussion regarding 3d printers/3d printing guns specifically and legal ramifications... It's really not the only thing I've contributed to the dialogue, but I do feel like you are trying to paint my honest inquiry in matters of law (which im no expert and hence deferring to the smarter-than-me-fellas at dakka for the purpose of our OT discussion).... Which I truly don't understand?

I just don't see how an interest in the subject of this thread (and it's legal ramifications for producers/consumers and how it will all work out) is an indication of dubious activity unless one wildly speculates...

Could you just not reckon, like I've stated that I own a 3d printer, and was curious of the opinions of others on a hypothetical situation? That maybe I don't want to risk letting someone borrow my printer to build themselves a computer case, or widget or whatever in the off chance they have lied to me and use it for nefarious purposes? I would like to be equipped with the knowledge to protect myself, my capital, and a means of explaining why I won't lend my machine out in the event I'm asked about it and don't want to come off simply like "because it's mine." etc

I however have pointed out that there seems to be a potential for owners of printers to lend/rent them out to people who could then produce a firearm with no serial # for themselves... withstanding they didn't rent it to individuals whom wouldn't qualify to receive a firearm/access to one in the first place.... I didn't say it was the way the truth an the light, or even a good idea. I just said it was a possibility that everyone will have to seemingly deal with, especially people who own a 3d printer. what safeguards could be implemented where you could viably make a biz of renting your printer out while at the same time ensuring you are not arming felons or would be terrorists? There seems to be a place in the market legally for this, currently, although not economically feasible I would argue unless one had a ton of local customers. Again not that i'm saying its a good idea, but I'm trying to figure out what prevents someone from doing this? I'm not so dumb I'm going to risk my biscuit on this sort of thing, but I'm REALLY interested to see what comes of it being a bit of a gun nut, and owning a 3d printer. Just seems logical I would find it interesting!

It got me thinking about what others have said regarding CNC etc... you can easily make metal guns very easily with good machinery like that. So what do people who own CNC machines do? Are they liable for every dumb who rents a machine from them (never heard of someone renting out an entire CNC machine except to a biz) and produces a gun and does something stupid? I doubt it. I doubt unless it was proven that they were privy to the plans of the people who rented the machinery... That same line of thinking, if you own a CNC shop. What if a customer of yours pulled a fast one on you and had you build him some random gizmos over a period of time that you didn't know assembled into a full auto tommy gun, but did? Would the CNC shop owner be at risk? or would the customer have sole liability if something happened as he lied/mis-represented plans to CNC owner who unwittingly built gun?

Could we extend the same logic to walmart, they sold a guy a broom, a nail, and a rubberband, should liability be extended to them if he combines those objects and a shotgun shell and kills someone?

I'm just really curious about how all that interacts and what not!

Don't worry, I'm not saying that you're up to anything nefarious. Its just from my own personal experience when someone starts with what-ifs that get gradually more specific its almost always been more than just intellectual curiosity. They are usually trying to find a way to cover themselves while doing, or because they've done, something shady.

Once again, if you're that curious your best bet may be to consult a suitably qualified attorney who can properly advise you. That way should the worst happen, and I hope it doesn't, and you end up in Court because of someone else's actions a judge will probably have more sympathy for your claims of acting in good faith if you consulted an attorney, instead of people on a website dedicated to miniature war gaming

skyfi wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

skyfi wrote:instead of worrying so much about what someone MAY POSSIBLY ONE DAY THINK ABOUT POSSIBLY COMMENCING TO TAKE ACTION ABOUT...

So then do you think it's foolish to oppose universal background checks or a federal gun registry on the grounds that the government may possibly one day think about possibly commencing to take action about taking the guns away?

Oh come on azaz. I understand why people would want to possibly make another law regarding 3d printers and guns, but I don't agree with it, and have stated why, with how easy it is to build superior weapons already. Just like you have stated your opinion. I also would argue that the federal government (or state for that matter) making lists is can be a bad thing.. Off top of my head last thing I can think of would be medical marijuana patients/users in those states, having applied for a state license, found out they could no longer legally receive/purchase a firearm. Talk about paving a road to hell with good intentions..

I admit though, I wasn't being so serious in regards to what you quoted, but I think you know that already

Yeah, pretty much. But I couldn't resist! That fruit wasn't just low-hanging; it was baking itself into a pie.



As to your what-would-happen-if-I-loaned-out-my-printer question, I'm not sure how it would work in the US, but in Canada all that would be required to absolve you of any criminal responsibility would be the test of whether or not a reasonable person would have cause to believe the printer would be used for illegal activities. It would be a very grey area and likely almost impossible to enforce, barring hidden cameras showing your client saying something to the effect of 'oh boy I can't wait to go use your printer for nefarious purposes!'. However, I suspect it is within tort law that you could potentially encounter the most problems.

My advice? Consult a real lawyer on the subject, and immediately stop asking about it on Internet forums. Generally speaking, if you think there's a chance you'll wind up in civil court for a possible negligence-related suit, then you really do not want the plaintiff digging up your previous discussions on said subject.

Well...um....I done some harcore stuff in my life.....took chances with my life....kinda know Death by first name basis......but I have to give serious thought...of squeezing a round off in this tonka toy gun....

 Jihadin wrote:
Well...um....I done some harcore stuff in my life.....took chances with my life....kinda know Death by first name basis......but I have to give serious thought...of squeezing a round off in this tonka toy gun....

"tonka toy gun"... I'm so stealing that!

Interesting note on the ease of making firearms.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-07/egypt-investment-collapses-as-violence-sparks-lawless-vigilantes.html

I see no option of these weapons to insert a 30 round clip......

 Jihadin wrote:
I see no option of these weapons to insert a 30 round clip......

There are people working on Printable AR15s and have a working printed lower receiver and 30 rounds magazines. As this Tech develops so do the materials that are used in it. Currently the most common printing is with resin but there are now printers that use Powered metal and print in full 3d. So given 10 years a lot of people will have these Devices in their house to make many useful items, be it replacement parts for your cars, miniatures for a certain boardgame, unique gun designs, or anything you dream of. These are really wonderful devices.

 Jihadin wrote:
I see no option of these weapons to insert a 30 round clip......

I don't see the option for barrel shrouds, hollow point anti armour rounds nor black things that go up either.

If you own a printer and someone wants to borrow, just say they can't.

You supervise printing their design in your own shop. Why would you want the hassle of a delicate piece of equipment being slung in a car boot by someone who doesn't know how to use it properly>

You can go to high street shops in the UK and get stuff 3D printed, so it's not like anyone wanting a legitimate service absolutely has to go and borrow someone's machine and take it away with them.

 Jihadin wrote:
I see no option of these weapons to insert a 30 round clip......

3D printed 30 round (standard capacity) AK magazine.



3D printed AR15 lower receiver.



Their Liberator pistol is just the first design of many. Maybe once these scumbag politicians realize that they can't strip you of your natural right to protect yourself, they will finally let off.

Let me see the plastic printed spring for that 30 round magazine.... And all the plastic springs in the trigger assembly of the lower receiver.

And the plastic cartridges filled with plastic nitro and primer.

I don't see any clever trick in 3D printing ABS parts that were made of moulded ABS on the actual weapon.